Farewell? To WTCD

Danse's picture

[just saw Lazlo's post on truthaction courtesy of Jpass....I think here's where the discussion should take place...so here's the blog I wrote this morning. 

Hey everyone,

Before I say adieu I wanted to take the time to apologize for my
rather nasty remarks the other day in Dicktater’s thread on Ayn Rand
(what can I say – she brings out the worst in me!) The truth is that I
was fairly intoxicated at the time and not really “all there”, as they
say. The lift was working, it just wasn’t going to the top floor. I was
in an antagonistic mood to boot, so in place of rational critique I
just sort of lashed out. Please accept my apologies.

I do recall saying that I do not believe the people on this blog to be
racist but rather anti-racist, hence the fierce opposition to Zionism.
At the same I also recall quoting a Judeophobic passage from the
otherwise brilliant Mikhail Bakunin, insinuating that his remarks would
probably be well received by many here. The contradiction is a sign of
my muddled thinking at the time, but it also points to a certain
discomfort I have with some of the content on this blog and with the
issue of Ziono-centrism in general.

Many Israeli apologists have stated that “anti-Zionism” is the new mask
for “anti-semitism”. Being an anti-Zionist I obviously do not share
this view. The fact that many Jewish people are among Israel’s greatest
detractors is invariably omitted from these analyses, which are
designed primarily to shield Israel from criticism by conflating
anti-Zionism with anti-Jewish sentiment.

I would be lying, however, if I didn’t say that some anti-Zionist
critics seem to bear all the hall-marks of traditional “anti-semitism”.
The Protocols. All-encompassing conspiracies attributed to a Jewish
cabal with gentiles relegated to puppet status. Jews accused of dual
loyalty etc. The end-result actually undermines the anti-Zionist
critique imo, more on that later.

On the issue of “dual loyalty”, I have no doubt that some Jews in
positions of power care more about Israel than the United States, just
as some (most) Jews and gentiles in positions of power care more about
corporations than people. But the mere fact that someone in a position
of power bears a Jewish surname should not automatically entail some
sort of fanatic devotion to Zionism. On this subject Finkelstein wrote:

“Mainstream Jewish intellectuals became "pro"-Israel after the June
1967 war when Israel became the U.S.'s strategic asset in the Middle
East, i.e., when it was safe and reaped benefits. To credit them with
ideological conviction is, in my opinion, very naive. They're no more
committed to Zionism than the neo-conservatives among them were once
committed to Trotskyism; their only ism is opportunism. As
psychological types, these newly minted Lovers of Zion most resemble
the Jewish police in the Warsaw ghetto. "Each day, to save his own
skin, every Jewish policeman brought seven sacrificial lives to the
extermination altar," a leader of the Resistance ruefully recalled.
"There were policemen who offered their own aged parents, with the
excuse that they would die soon anyhow." Jewish neo-conservatives watch
over the U.S. "national" interest, which is the source of their power
and privilege, and in the Middle East it happens that this "national"
interest largely coincides with Israel's "national" interest. If ever
these interests clashed, who can doubt that, to save their own skins,
they'll do exactly what they're ordered to do, with gusto?”

Sometimes, the “Jewish surname” thing is taken to absurd extremes.
So in Petras’ work “Do Zionists Run America?” the author goes so far as
to mention, in a foot note, that some or other war-monger has a Jewish
wife! Petras’ solution is to "move ahead and decolonize our country [of
Zionists], our minds and politics as a first step in reconstituting a
democratic republic, free of entangling colonial and neo-imperial
alliances." Sounds familiar. Like Alex Jones except instead of NWO
agents we have a Zionist infestation. I’m also reminded of the
Mershheimer/Walt piece:

“This argument has been heard before. Although it superficially sounds
“radical”, it is most often heard from paleoconservatives like Pat
Buchanan who also sparked controversy in the 1980s for making similar
arguments.

it might be worthwhile to put [Walt and Mershheimer] into context
ideologically. Both men subscribe to “neorealist” theory, which falls
within the international relations (IR) branch of political science.
This term is related to “realpolitik,” the word coined by Bismark that
obviously described the way that another realist Henry Kissinger
conducted foreign policy.

“States are assumed at a minimum to want to ensure their own
survival. This driving force of survival is the primary factor
influencing their behaviour and in turn ensures states develop
offensive military capabilities, as a mean to increase their relative
power. Neorealists bring attention to a persistent lack of trust
between states which requires states to be on guard and act in an
overtly aggressive manner.”

Full: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neorealism

To some extent, it is difficult to predict how realist scholars
will apply their theories to the world of practical politics. One
realist, E.H. Carr, had a career that defied conventional
anti-Communist expectations while another, George Kennan, exemplified
professional anti-Communism.

Mearsheimer was opposed to the invasion of Iraq and signed an ad in
the NY Times with other realists like Kenneth Waltz under a heading
that is quintessentially realist: “War with Iraq is not in America’s
national interest”. And what if it was? Bombs away?

The Question of what is or is not in “America’s national [ie
state/corporate] interest” is not easy to answer. So while some
factions of the ruling class were opposed to the Iraqi adventure,
others (not merely Zionists) saw it as crucial:

The Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington
expressed this concern most clearly in a November 2000 report made
public in February 2001 under the title, The Geopolitics of Energy into
the 21st Century. According to this report, world energy demand should
increase by over 50 percent during the first two decades of the 21st
century.

“The Persian Gulf will remain the key marginal supplier of oil to
the world market, with Saudi Arabia in the unchallenged lead. Indeed,
if estimates of future demand are reasonably correct, the Persian Gulf
must expand oil production by almost 80 percent during 2000–2020,
achievable perhaps if foreign investment is allowed to participate and
if Iran and Iraq are free of sanctions.”

“For the Bush administration, as in fact for U.S. capitalism as a
whole, the need to put an end to the embargo imposed on Iraq was
becoming urgent. It was time to make possible reconstruction and
modernization of Iraq’s oil infrastructure—meaning several years of
investments and work. Iraq sits on the second largest oil reserves in
the world after the Saudi kingdom; Washington’s goal was to allow Iraq
to double and then triple its production (up to its estimated capacity)
during the first decade of the new century, so as to ward off an oil
crisis during the following decade. Underlying this concern was the
principle according to which a substantial margin of flexibility in
Saudi production—a safety margin between the kingdom’s actual
production and its production capacity[12]—must be maintained. This is
crucial to the stability of the world oil market under supervision from
the United States, and constitutes “the cornerstone of its oil
policy.”[13]

Similarly, on the subject of Afghanistan;

“The invasion of Afghanistan was also a chance for the Bush
administration to carry out a project it had cherished since the final
collapse of the Soviet Union. But establishing a direct U.S. military
presence in the heart of ex-Soviet Central Asia had seemed even more
improbable than a U.S. occupation of Iraq.[14] A military presence in
the heart of the Eurasian continental mass joining Russia to China—two
countries tempted to ally with each other in order to resist U.S.
hegemonic pressure more effectively,[15] or even to ally with Iran as
well—had evident geostrategic value. Besides, a U.S. military presence
in Central Asia and the Caspian basin (in Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan,
Georgia and so on) fit into its global and Middle Eastern strategy of
taking control of sources of oil, supplemented in this particular case
by natural gas.”

I’m not sure why this should even be an issue, frankly. It is well
known that control over oil reserves has been the obsession of every
American administration since (at least) Einsehower. Plans of directly
seizing Arab oil fields have been in development for decades (complete
with talk about the need for a “boogeyman” to justify said seizure).
The reasons for this obsession should be fairly obvious. It’s about
long-standing U.S. attempts to acquire and maintain strategic control
over the region and its resources (again, not only in the middle east
but across the globe).

For these reasons alone I agree with Finkelstein that US policy in
the middle east would not be drastically different in the absence of a
Zionist state (excepting Palestine, of course). Israel is an important
partner in these atrocities and has her own reasons for fomenting the
“war on terror” myth, already well known to readers here. Her existence
makes things markedly worse. I’m not trying to dispute any of this.

What I’m trying to say is that 911 cannot be viewed in a vacuum.
The simple fact is that the US has been incredibly consistent with its
policies toward weaker states in the middle east and elsewhere. Not
only the US, in fact, but just about every powerful state in the
history of mankind.

“The arts of power and its minions are the same in all countries and in
all ages. It marks its victim; denounces it; and excites the public
odium and the public hatred, to conceal its own abuses and
encroachments.” Henry Clay, 1834

911 was the logical choice for the American state in the wake of
Glasnost, the oil crisis and a bourgeoning “anti-globalization”
movement, among many other factors. As Rocker wrote of totalitarianism:

“Modern monopoly capitalism and the totalitarian state are merely the
last terms in a development which could culminate in no other results.”

As so it has been said, that if Bin Laden didn’t exist the Pentagon
would have had to create him. In a manner of speaking: they did.

Speaking of the Pentagon and Glasnost, the issue of military
Keynesianism is another area that seems to be entirely absent from the
ZIHOP thesis.

“Our excessive military expenditures did not occur over just a few
short years or simply because of the Bush administration's policies.
They have been going on for a very long time in accordance with a
superficially plausible ideology and have now become entrenched in our
democratic political system where they are starting to wreak havoc.
This ideology I call "military Keynesianism" - the determination to
maintain a permanent war economy and to treat military output as an
ordinary economic product, even though it makes no contribution to
either production or consumption.

This ideology goes back to the first years of the Cold War. During
the late 1940s, the US was haunted by economic anxieties. The Great
Depression of the 1930s had been overcome only by the war production
boom of World War II. With peace and demobilization, there was a
pervasive fear that the Depression would return.

The result was the militaristic National Security Council Report 68
[NSC-68] drafted under the supervision of Paul Nitze, then head of the
Policy Planning Staff in the State Department. Dated April 14, 1950,
and signed by president Harry S Truman on September 30, 1950, it laid
out the basic public economic policies that the United States pursues
to the present day.

In its conclusions, NSC-68 asserted: "One of the most significant
lessons of our World War II experience was that the American economy,
when it operates at a level approaching full efficiency, can provide
enormous resources for purposes other than civilian consumption while
simultaneously providing a high standard of living."

With this understanding, American strategists began to build up a
massive munitions industry, both to counter the military might of the
Soviet Union (which they consistently overstated) and also to maintain
full employment as well as ward off a possible return of the
Depression. The result was that, under Pentagon leadership, entire new
industries were created to manufacture large aircraft, nuclear-powered
submarines, nuclear warheads, intercontinental ballistic missiles, and
surveillance and communications satellites. This led to what president
Dwight D Eisenhower warned against in his farewell address of February
6, 1961: "The conjunction of an immense military establishment and a
large arms industry is new in the American experience." That is, the
military-industrial complex.

By 1990, the value of the weapons, equipment, and factories devoted
to the Department of Defense was 83% of the value of all plants and
equipment in American manufacturing. From 1947 to 1990, the combined US
military budgets amounted to $8.7 trillion. Even though the Soviet
Union no longer exists, US reliance on military Keynesianism has, if
anything, ratcheted up [due to – you guessed it – the “war on terror”]

It is not my wish to exculpate the Israeli agents who took part in
the 911 attacks, hence my inclusion of the “Dancing Israelis” in my
film The Third Stage. They are every bit as guilty as the individuals
who planned the war games, for instance. The problem I see is that
people either grossly underplay or grossly overplay the significance of
Zionism in world affairs.

On the “overplay” front, I do indeed view the theory of a singularly
“Zionist” motivation/agency behind 911 as a limited hangout every bit
as wrong-headed as the Patsyian angle. It basically robs us of any
perspective on the root problems of militarism and statism and
therefore the ability to rectify these problems.

I think the ZIHOP view presented on this blog discredits 911 truth, not
because of any real or perceived “anti-Semitism” but because, to put it
bluntly, it is simplistic and naïve. I also think the Zionist “master
control” thesis actually undermines the anti-Zionist cause. A critique
of Petras’ work argued the same:

“Unfortunately, his current book may be taken up there and elsewhere as
some seemingly worthwhile analysis of how and why the United States
does what it does in the world. It may also be seized upon as
documented "proof" of "the anti-Semitism of the Left." It might
conceivably be taken up by elements of the far right, already convinced
and not needing to be told, but always receptive to more "proof" of
Jewish machinations and conspiracies.

More ominous, perhaps, the book will certainly seem attractive to
numbers of unevenly developed and unschooled radicals, disenchanted
youth and others already opposed to war and occupation abroad and
assaults on civil liberties and increasing authoritarianism at home. It
may contribute to miseducating and disorienting a movement that needs a
serious, trenchant and materialist critique of imperialism and of
Zionism.

To understand what seems to have led Petras into this blind alley,
it may be worth looking at the remarkable recent renascence of various
forms of populism -- left, right, and just plain confused -- with its
illusory solutions to real problems. Grounded in vague notions of "the
people," joined in opposition to some oligarchy or "plutocracy" of
usurpers at the top, populism as an ideology is often backward-looking,
filled with demands to regain a declining status and position and calls
to "take back our lands/nation/democracy/republic."

While populism certainly has had its contradictory progressive and
democratic edge, typified in our own period by anti-corporate demands
of the Green party and other forces in the global justice struggle,
populism has also had a reactionary side appealing to social groups
bypassed and buffeted by economic forces beyond their control -- a
nativist, xenophobic and racist side, a penchant for conspiratorial
theory and a related quest to exorcize evil cabals, rid the country of
outsiders and/or their domestic agents, and reclaim "the republic."
This retrograde side of populism is evidenced above all today in ugly
anti-immigrant racism.

Such mistakes could be corrected, but the quality of the analysis
is hardly better than the editing. This is a real shame, because the
poisonous effect of AIPAC is a genuine political problem, and any
attempt to confront "The Lobby" or intelligently discuss U.S. Middle
East policy brings immediate denunciation and retribution…”

I hope this short piece will help to illustrate why I (and many
others) reject the ZIHOP thesis. Shillery needn’t be involved, although
accusations of such seem to the preferred method of dealing with
opposing views by many in the 911 truth movement. If I have
misrepresented anyone’s position it was not done intentionally. It’s
just the way I interpret this website’s message.

I will probably not be visiting here much in the future simply because
I find the recent vogue of attacking Truthaction mean-spirited and
counterproductive (even though I’m sure some constructive criticism is
in order). I’m disappointed that things have turned out as they have
but, that’s life.

Good luck.

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Jpass's picture

UnLock My Discussion TruthAction

Danse,
You requested my discussion be locked at truthaction. I responded at truthaction as the author and requested it be left open because the discussion is bigger then us and needs to go on everywhere.

It was locked and my comment was deleted.

This discussion is bigger then all of us. To relegate it to a situation where two factions send representatives to negotiate a truce is ridiculous. What about the people at TruthAction.org who took your original absurd insinuations seriously and refuse to come here?

Do they not deserve to be involved?

You DO have prominence. As the author of the topic, my discussion was relegated to this website at your request.

Please unlock it for me and help those un-fairly banned get back into the discussion at truthaction.org.

So that we may act as one movement working out kinks and not two factions making a truce based on your irrational paranoia about becoming a rabid anti-Semite for studying Israeli involvement in 9/11.

I just don't believe this issue is about you and by locking MY DISCUSSION, you are again encouraging less debate and less communication about issues we all think about daily.

Danse's picture

JPass, I was smashed the

JPass, I was smashed the other night.  Therefore whatever "arguments" I made are completely irrelevent, unless you're more interested in "Danse under the influence" than actual content.  I already apologized.  If you wanna post about the Zionist angle I already started a (sober) thread entitled "ZIHOP as Limited Hangout', which should still be on the front page. 

casseia's picture

Hmm.

I don't recall that that argument worked for that Mad Max guy. Or that Seinfeld guy.

Danse's picture

Huh? Have you lost the

Huh? Have you lost the ability to recognize drunken satire?

casseia's picture

*This* is my central objection to that site.

I don't know who is running the show over there -- and I believe it is deliberately concealed. I think removing a comment like yours is bullshit.

And btw, I have explained to Danse a few times why I have no interest in being unbanned. If the site was not shill central before, the mass banning of dissenting voices coupled with the appearance of known argumentophobes like Jessica makes it that now, in spades.

Jpass's picture

Drunk = irrelevant?

My concern is not the 'Zionist Angle' and that is not the topic I am claiming everyone deserves to be involved in.

Your drunken attack is an extreme example of a much larger problem. But it is defiantly a version of something, which I think Cas has begun to described above, that should be brought to the table and dissected.

It's keeping 'certain topics' off the table with regards to 9/11.

I say this because I've seen it in my own interactions with people. I say this because of YOUR actions which you admit are irrational. Don't you wonder WHY you lashed out in this way in a situation where it was clearly un-justified? I mean NOT EVEN CLOSE MAN? Do you REALLY think it was the booze talking Danse?

So, I have to ask my self...who else out there has these irrational fears that studying certain information will lead to 'rabid foamaing at the mouth' jew hatered?

No, I'm not buying it. You were sober enough to carry on a conversation all day long with very coherent and clear understanding.

casseia's picture

Maybe booze hates da jooze

I agree. The Bakhunin passage + use of the word 'nigger' = something more than drunken silliness gone awry.

casseia's picture

"At the same I also recall

"At the same I also recall quoting a Judeophobic passage from the otherwise brilliant Mikhail Bakunin, insinuating that his remarks would probably be well received by many here."

The blog (and comments) are still there if you need to refresh your memory.

This statement -- that a blatantly Judeophobic passage would be well received by "many here" is extraordinarily offensive. Would you care to name names? Has it somehow eluded you that many of us go to great lengths to distinguish our anti-Zionist position from any kind of fear and loathing of Jews? You are correct when you say this is an anti-racist site, and I don't believe that passage was well received by ANY member of the community here -- as for the annoymice and users banned for being racists, that's obviously outside our control.

You know what I wonder? I wonder if you're uncomfortable with your own racism. The give away is when you mention the individual people in your own life -- the relationships being 'proof' of your attitudes towards whole groups of people, and proof of your comfort level with the Other. I'm suspicious of anyone saying he or she is not a racist -- I think we are all laboring under the burden of having been raised to be racists and the best we can do is to be anti-racist. 'Non-racist' is an option for very very few.

Are you afraid that you hate Jews? Or at least, that you might be a tiny bit uncomfortable with them? Just aware of how they are different (or seem different to you?)I'm afraid that in some sense, Jewish identity has been constructed to be exclusive (and at the same time, to rope in people whose connection to Judaism is not religious practice, which I find very problematic.) It's by no means unique in this way, but it seems to provoke a moral panic in non-Jewish people that has different qualities than my 'white liberal guilt' for instance. I think there may be such a thing as Judaeophobia-phobia -- the fear of hating Jews.

Danse's picture

Hi Cass, "The blog (and

Hi Cass,

"The blog (and comments) are still there if you need to refresh your memory."

Uggh, I'd rather not. Replies to intoxication are meaningless anyway.

"Has it somehow eluded you that many of us go to great lengths to distinguish our anti-Zionist position from any kind of fear and loathing of Jews?"

This is indeed apparent.

"You know what I wonder? I wonder if you're uncomfortable with your own racism. The give away is when you mention the individual people in your own life -- the relationships being 'proof' of your attitudes towards whole groups of people"

Well, my attempt at brazen satire fell flat, so I had to defend myself. If I felt white people were "superior" I would surely try to hide the fact that my best friend (who is Filipino) beat me by 15 iQ points (not that IQ is an actual measure of intelligence -- but you get the point).

"Are you afraid that you hate Jews?"

I “hate” to use a cliche, but my best childhood friend was/is Jewish, so no I'm not really "afraid". I have no hatred toward Jews, Muslims or Christians, only fallacies.

I'm concerned that people will forget about root causes and imagine a cancer they can excise with one Zionost excision, just like the Third Reich, failing to realize that false flag operations (for instance) and imperialism have been a mainstay of states for hundreds of years.

 

casseia's picture

The last paragraph there --

The last paragraph there -- if you had just posted that -- would have saved us all a lot of trouble. I think the way Zionism is a cog in the larger machine of imperialism is a very interesting topic. But rather than put it that way, you had to burden it with a lot of bullshit that was NOT funny and did not read as any kind of satire -- drunken or not.

I see that you do in this post just what I was pointing out about your other posts. I'm sorry, but the "One of my best friends is" argument is not adequate and not worthy of your usual level of insight. It's interesting to me that you would even point out that your Filipino friend has a higher IQ than you -- 'better' is still Other, as any feminist who rejects the pedestal has had to figure out.

As you can probably infer, I'm still very angry. I believe that I will be ready to accept your apology in the future, but not yet.

Danse's picture

I agree. The Bakhunin

"I agree. The Bakhunin passage + use of the word 'nigger' = something more than drunken silliness gone awry."

The fact that someone as astute as Bakunin can fall prey to these irrational ideas about jews is interesting in and of itself. That’s why I posted it. The word "nigger" is slightly more offensive than "Zionist".  You can attribute sinister intent all you wish.

"drunken or not."

Get really drunk and post some shit and we’ll see how it turns out. It’s not an excuse, which is why I apologized. This is apparently NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

"It's interesting to me that you would even point out that your Filipino friend has a higher IQ than you -- 'better' is still Other, as any feminist who rejects the pedestal has had to figure out."

I don’t understand this statement. I mentioned the word “cliché” for a reason. “Other”? I view the human race as one race. The example was provided to show as much.

casseia's picture

Why is your friend's IQ

Why is your friend's IQ relevant or meaningful? Is there some reason he should NOT be smarter than you? Is it disconfirming evidence of... something? Why are you using that 'something' as your default standard?

Yeah, yeah -- the human race is all one. Sure. All righty then.

And now something I dislike saying and yet feel I must say: Dude, has it occurred to you that you have a drinking problem? Have you noticed that most of us do NOT get shitfaced and blog? (And on the occasions that certain parties here have done so, it's been a lot more stupid and a lot less venomous?) Given your loss of your dad, I can understand why it probably seemed like a good idea at the time -- but it was NOT, and you're right that a simple apology is not enough. Your drinking led to really pissing off and hurting a lot of people who considered you a friend.

I'm done interrogating you but I really think you would do well to think more about racism. I'm done ragging on you because I know that you're going through a hard time.

Danse's picture

"Why is your friend's IQ

"Why is your friend's IQ relevant or meaningful?"

Cause I was just called a racist.  That's the way I inpreteded it at the time of writing, anyway.   It's a "she", BTW.  

"Is there some reason he should NOT be smarter than you?" 

Nope.  Again, just used the example to illustrate a point. 

"Yeah, yeah -- the human race is all one. Sure. All righty then."

I think so.  

[stuff on my dad, drinking etc.]

I apologized for hurting people's feelings.  Yeah I was drunk.  It happens.  

Jpass's picture

Dance

Man have the tables turned or what? Only this time the lashing is fully justified. Too bad it's relegated to this website at Danses request.

What a sad state of affairs you are forced to defend huh Danse?

Danse, obviously your apology is not good enough yet. That is what she said. Any good friend that claims to respect someone else (as you have to Cas) would accept that as a POSITIVE sign after your outrageous actions against people here. But instead, your are the victim.

The problem for me is that you are claiming that booze was speaking THROUGH you, and through your fingers...typing coherent messages....and having hours long conversations with multiple people. That in fact this irrational behavior is strictly a result of drinking booze...

So are you? Still drunk as fuck that is.

It's an absurd excuse is what I am saying. I accepted your apology long ago.

BTW, I did not read your letter. Please un-lock the discussion at TruthAction.org and I will read the letter.

The reason people are not ready to accept your apology is because you've attempted and possibly suceeded in damaging the credibility of dedicated activists and concerned patriots.

You have no fucking right. ANd you have every obligation to open the discussion at TruthAction.org.

I suppose your actions from this point on will determine whether others choose to accepts your apology.

ITS NOT ABOUT YOU.

Danse's picture

JPass, you thrive on petty

JPass, you thrive on petty interpersonal issues.  Grow up. 

casseia's picture

Fuck off.

Really.

Jpass's picture

Jeez.

Hi Cas,
You have that right. I responded to Danse's allegation about petty interpesonal issues.

I said:

"would you like to provide an example?"

So I thought I was distracting the conversation and deleted my comment and accidentally deleted Danses following response.

Paraphrased (Danse please re-add your ridiculous comment please)

He quoted my passage about the apology and then claimed that since he has apologized there is nothing he can do and any reluctance to accept his apology can be attributed to...something about zionism and shills...I odno't fucking know what this guy is smoking anymore.

Someone save these threads. This shit is WHACK.

Annoymouse's picture

BRAZEN CENSORSHIP AND WANTON HYPOCRISY AT WTCDUMBOLITION

[This comment was submitted twice -- it is posted in the appropriate thread. -- cass]

Danse's picture

Well, this thread went off

Well, this thread went off the rails pretty quick.

I was hoping to return the debate to original points of contention.  Substance instead of soap opera.    

But apparently my own shortcomings are much more interesting.  

Once again, I apologize for the nastiness and wish you luck.  

I won't be back.  

casseia's picture

Bye now.

Buh-bye.

gretavo's picture

I hope this short piece

I hope this short piece short?will help to illustrate why I (and maybe many others) reject the ZIHOP thesis and accuse those who sincerely believe ZIHOP of doing so only out of rabid bigotry. Shillery needn’t be involveddare we dream?, although accusations of such seem to the preferred method of dealing with opposing views by many in the 911 truth movement if ýou're going to misrepresent us as anti-semites you can damn well deal with being called a shill, though no one as I recall has done so to you. If I have misrepresented anyone’s positionif? it was not done intentionallyi really hope not. It’s just the way I interpret this website’s message.it's not JUST the way.  it IS the way you interpret it and it is wrong and we are not only concerned that people will think ill of us we wonder what about our message has led you to think of us in this way?

I will probably not be visiting here much in the future don't blame yousimply because I find the recent vogue the latest issue? of attacking Truthaction not the community who use it to publicize their events, the people who decide who can say what in the forum.  a double standard was so obvious that good people left, and now incredibly they are being invited back, just as long as they acknowledge that old wtcdemolition is a breeding ground for antisemitism--why, that's what the nice man from the Wiesenthal Center said, mama!imean-spirited and counterproductiveoh what do YOU know about being counterproductive, silly! (even though I’m sure some constructive criticism is in order an overwhelming understatement). I’m disappointed that things have turned out as they haveno doubt.  anything else? but, that’s life.indeed it is that Good luck. thanks, we could all use that.

just chill man, and do your thing, and if we see you a the victory ball we'll know then for sure that we're cool.  :)

Danse's picture

very, very sad.  I asked,

very, very sad.  I asked, naievly, that people here deal with the issues; you prefer to perpetuate the soap opera.  

 

Keenan's picture

grow up, Danse

You ask people deal with the issues...by completely avoiding the issues yourself and refusing to take any responsibility or to be accountable for any of your slanderous accusations? Are you sure it isn't you that prefers to perpetuate the soap opera?

Danse's picture

Issues contained in original

Issues contained in original post.  Slanderous accusations?  Hence the apology.  I notice no such apologies forthcoming from WTCD users.  How bout resonding to one or more of my points?  Again, original post -- not intended as tit for tat soap but issue oriented. 

larry horse's picture

apologies?

how about forgiveness? i'm not getting into this mess, just wanted to say that you disappointed me with your shady remarks. i accept the apology and will move on.

wait...one more shot Wink
if Gold, Arabesque, Diane the activist, Victorinox, the Col., Albanese, sidhartha?, the new kim character from down under, and the ilk suits your fancy, knock yourself out. ciao.

Danse's picture

I think when someone

I think when someone apologizes others should take that to heart.  It didn't come easy to me.  

The only thing I desire is that people view the original post and respond to the actual content, not the soap opera stuff.  I don't think that's too much to ask. 

casseia's picture

Didn't you say you were leaving?

Bye now.

Jpass's picture

Good Day

Danse,

I am banned form a fucking website because of you.

Do you not feel somewhat obligated to stand up against this sort of censorship that you caused? Obviously not because you are still begging for people to accept your apology.

I did nothing wrong, got no explanation for being banned.

You have the power to lock a thread that I create at Truthaction.org. Then I get banned and my comments are deleted. You say NOTHING. It never happened.

POOF...it never happened huh Danse? So is this just the "militarism and statism' at work again Danse?

Shill?

Now you want to cry about an apology?

Shill? I will not give you the dignity of a paid shill after you insulted me, slandered me, got me banned, got my communications locked and removed from Truthaction.0rg.

And if you are truly so sorry, why do you support the censorship of silencing of me and others? Your silence on this issue very telling.

Fuck off and leave. Your shit is filed away under the 'shill or fuckin' nut-job' folder. Your gig is up.

Big_D's picture

A drunk mind speaks a sober heart.

I haven't read your entire blog yet, Danse, I read up to where you say you were 'smashed' & just wanted to add this old saying, and I've found it to be true.

Annoymouse's picture

Hey Danse,

Don't know anything about your sitch but I've danced with the bottle, it's a progressive thing that keeps you down. I straightened up and flew right but it wasn't without acknowledging a problem and reaching out for help. I went to AA for months, no sponsor or step-doing, just listening to others in various stages of recovery, meanwhile still having a a couple benders a week.

Besides the current fiasco, I was one of the handful who heard you live on Cosmos' show a few months back- the show with all the awkward dead air, the show which ended in 20 minutes of bumper music then was never uploaded to the mp3 archives. I suspected one or more parties in that bomb were under the influence of something!

IF you suspect there may be a problem there, and IF you want to reach out for a hand up from a brother who is/was in the same place, or you just want to eavesdrop for awhile and reflect on what's best for you, check aa.org to find your area's meetings and show up to a few of them. I kept going back because I enjoyed them-- a real laboratory of life.

Alternatively, I've found the forums at soberrecovery.com to be a great resource, where you can be a fly on the wall in a virtual recovery meeting from your home.

Best luck Danse; now let's all WTCD regulars attend an Al-Anon meeting, to help with the recovery process from these traumatic events. ;)

Tahooey's picture

GET LOST DANSE

> I think the ZIHOP view presented on this blog discredits 911 truth

and i think you discredit 911 truth by espousing such opinions.

GET LOST YOU CREEP

==============================================

 

Jpass's picture

Seriously Tahooey

I'm with you.

I've noticed people here have been cutting this creep slack for his outrageous behavior. Not me. The guy is fucking sick and his actions have led to the desctruction of people's freedom to participate in discussions on other websites.

I'm was glad you were vocal about this and continued calling this weirdo Danse on his ridiculous irrational actions.

Well, they are irrational if you think he's merely a drunk idiot. Personally, I don't. I think he's a shill, a faker, a poser.

Anyone who causes someone else to be censored and then says NOTHING as if it never happened is a creep hiding because of his own shame.

I know some here are friends with the guy and would like to give him the benefit of the doubt but look at his actions and silence on important issues like censorship that he has caused.

At his request, his shame has been relegated to this website. He's had the discussion nixed from the record at TruthAction.org and then I was banned and all my comments deleted. NO EXPLANATION.

The list of violations continues by this creep as he begs, like other drunk abusers, for forgiveness...only to again become the victim when he is not warmly welcomed back after his vicious attack.

And he has the audacity to chastise anyone who hasn't excepted his apology! Ummm...CREEP?

I was willing to accept the apology and even consider that Danse had a bad day, was boozed up, and all that nonsense.

However, as relevant discussions have been deleted (poof!), squashed at Danses request...as if they NEVER HAPPENED. The discussion is being controlled and relegated to this website.

TruthAction.org has banned me with no explanation (along with others) for no reason and with no explanation. Is that a "Truth Movemet"?

Ironically, I set up the fucking forum at truthaction for YT!

I am not against bannings. But giving people the power to delete and ban at will with no justification or explanation is...THE FAKE 911 TRUTH MOVEMENT.

You need no more example then un-accountability. Take for example this Col. Jenny Sparks character. She apparently has the power to delete my comments as I post them with out justification at TruthAction.org. She then goes on, then, to say that the discussion is what will lead to understanding on this matter.

Umm...what discussion? My comments are being deleted as I type them and I'm now banned! There is no discussion!

Seriously, that is shady shady shady shady shit. I'm sure most agree with me here but I don't understand those who give this cockroach the benefit of the doubt.

He's a loser who deserves no fucking slack at this point. He has no remorse and continues to blame others for not welcoming him back after he abused people here, then had the discussion censored so his shameful acts could not be discussed elsewhere, and...like all drunk abusers....begged for an apology and continue to lash out...further alienating himself.

Even when that tool bagger was condescending you (i saw the no planers comment directed to you) as he was me (he called me an idiot in his first response to my request for him to back up his vicious insinuations)...but you stood your ground and slap the chump in the head. Tahooey, that shit right there...the condescending bullshit comeing form respected 911 Truther is how you can tell the fakers from the Real Truthers.

And because of your actions we have a solid example of straight SHILLAGE from a creep weirdo named Danse who was once well respected in the 911 Truth Movement.

I only wonder how this dipshit thought people wouldn't slap him down?

You are the man Tahooey. And if you ever doubt this guy is a creep, just go read the blog again. I would recommends you save it to your hard drive for safe keeping because it really is a great example of the Fake 911 Truth Movement and I wouldn't be totally surprised to see it somehow removed from this website eventually. It's truely must be embarrassing for him (good! Fucking Creep).

Too bad he was able to censor the entire shameful thing from TruthAction.org when I tried to cordially bring it up.

(also, for anyone who thinks I'm being harsh on Danse "the fake turther Creep'. If you were to re-read the entire discussion you will see that I am mostly cordial with Danse in the face of his constant abuse.

Unlike Danses vicious attack and his following fake truther antics....this lashing is 100% justified.

Tahooey's picture

Thank you Jpass

I've loved enough drunks and addicts to know that if you forgive them, you enable them. When you're an adult, you don't blame your mistakes on substances.

And even when he's sober, although an intelligent writer, is too full of himself (or is it just shit he's full of?) to waste any more time with.

If he doesn't stay lost I would seriously suggest to Gretavo that we ban him from posting here as other than as a filtered annoymouse.

And thanks again Jpass for your kind words, sometimes I worry that by having an open mind I might discredit myself or those who allow me to associate with them.

For the record, i neither renounce nor endorse "no-planes" - I wasn't there to see it with my own eyes, so I don't fucking know. That's my stance and if that discredits everything I think or write, so be it.

casseia's picture

jewmoonhoaxnoplaner

Kidding ;)

Now, while completely skirting the issue of whether NPT or tv fakery has any merit, I would like to point out an interesting development in 9/11 truth.

I know that in the past gretavo (by no means the only one) has said something like, the no-planers are out to sabotage the Bldg 7 angle, because when you say "It wasn't hit by a plane!" it's too easy for the listener to come back with "Oh man, are you one of those guys who doesn't believe in planes?" which sucks.

However, the OTHER thing that is happening with increasing frequency is the conflation of "no planes at the WTC" with "no commercial jet at the Pentagon" (or even just an unwillingness to 'buy' the idea that it was certainly a 757.) That's why people like Arabesque and Vic constantly call Pentagon skeptics no-planers, knowing that the term is highly loaded and carries a whole bunch of incorrect connotations. I wonder if *this* was really the goal of the no-plane Mega Disinfo Krill (I'm making a distinction between good and bad faith adherents of the theory) or whether the disinfo cops are merely capitalizing on this situation.

Tahooey's picture

discrediting the movement

Well in some ways I find the whole "discrediting the movement" thing is comical, because, come on guys, if you are openly questioning the government's version of things, you have very little credit regardless of what your actual beliefs (nevermind the merit of those beliefs on the basis of scientific and publicly visible evidence, nor the massive, dare i say, majority of public who might agree with you - in my opinion you still have no "credit" as it were). This is not an accident.

Regarding all of those things, we don't know. We might have fairly certain beliefs, and those fairly certain beliefs just might be wrong. But unless you were there with your own eyes, you just don't fucking know. You can't trust the news, or so-called eyewitnesses, you can only trust your own brain to weigh ALL the evidence including new information as it trickles in.

Those who are honest with themselves are happy to drift in the sea of the unknown this way and that with the currents of information. Those who would take charge and say with conviction about these unknowns "This is what actually happened," or "you must not consider x,y or z to even be possible," those are the people that make me wonder, hmm why are they SO certain of their beliefs (like religious fanatics, on hearsay and without solid evidence), and what motivates them? And maybe I need to look into this "x,y, and z" a little more and find out why it is that people DON'T want me looking at it.

Too many people go around thinking to themselves, "I know exactly what happened, now I've just got to convince everyone else that my version is true." It's those nasty little egos at work, buggers - quite a credit to the disinfo (not to mention debunking!) movement! I don't know but I'd sure like to know what happened at all those places. Arresting & questioning Cheney (& heck Silverstein basically admitted on video to conspiring to take down WTC7, arrest him too) seems like it would be a good place for an honest citizenry to start. That's what IMHO a "movement" should be figuring out how to do at this point, not which plane crashed where and who is a shill. </soapbox>

and thanks for kidding, because i'm glad to know you're not ostracizing me for my agnosticism :)

casseia's picture

Ironic, isn't it?

We're always accused of being the people who "claim to know exactly what happened and ostracize those who disagree." I think you're absolutely right about the "sea of the unknown" and the profound shift in consciousness that being willing to stay put in that sea -- instead of groping for a boat, ANY BOAT -- induces. Then, you start questioning things like the moon landing -- not because you DISBELIEVE them but because the rug that was under all your unexamined beliefs has been yanked. (It does really suck to have an 8 year old ask you if we really went to the moon, though -- agnosticism doesn't go over well with the third grade set. So I just say, "Yes, we did." I have no problem with her going to school and saying "jet fuel fires did not collapse the twin towers" but I don't really want her arguing with her teacher about the Apollo missions.)

I find the no plane people very interesting -- not because I share their views, but because they've headed off down an avenue of the rabbit hole that is very strange. And again, I'm making a distinction between the intelligent people who have a good faith skepticism and the Mega Disinfo Krill who are up to god knows what.

gretavo's picture

wow, that's some analysis!

and i can't say which it might be, possibly entirely planned. possibly this was all planned out over years! and they also could have designed the mayhem precisely in such a way as to lend itself easily to specific forms of sabotage. an attempt at installing and running a "human program" in the mass consciousness, but it has an awful lot of bugs yet to be worked out.

We are those bugs. :)

Big_D's picture

The WTC no plane theory just doesn't add up.

And what evidence I've seen is pretty flimsy. What I do find interesting, looking back at how all this has played out with the disinfo & the thought police, is JohnA letting it slip (I believe it was one of those heated discussion between himself & RT, among others ;) that he and Nico had worked together sometime prior to 9/11. Nico did a bang up job of giving the thought police something fresh to pad their resumes with, so to speak.
I see it this way, Those that pulled off 9/11 have to find a way to remove any questions surrounding the demolition of the WTC and whatever happened at the Pentagon. If they can manage those two things the rest will be easy.

Annoymouse's picture

Nico being disinfo proves nothing

Not saying he is or isn't. It doesn't mean anything. We know no planes sounds crazy, so making this the basis of a fake conflict would be easy. I see what you mean by the climate of thought policing carrying over to other matters. But Nico's over the top behavior could be designed to credit inquiries into certain areas. Or not. It could just be who he is. His having worked together with Albanese in the past could be significant. Or not. It could be coincidence.

I think that the crash physics should be questioned because they relate to how people died. This is a bit contradictory to my prior argument of focusing only on the "collapses" because that's what killed most of the people. In fact, most of the people were killed, it is said, because the planes either killed them directly or prevented them from escaping from floors above the impact zones. It is the claim that stairwells were blocked that interests me the most.

This is new to me - an impact analysis expert has been asking NIST to disclose its data.

http://911science.blogspot.com/2007/08/experts-cant-verify-official-911-...

I've long been frustrated by the reluctance of scientists, engineers, and architects in this movement to question the impact scenarios used by NIST.

A recent example is Professor Grabbe's letter to Journal of 9/11 Studies, in which he states "There was never any issue of the energy and momentum the plane impacts had on the towers.

http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/g/GrabbeToNISTenergyMomentum....

Professor Grabbe is of course correct that NIST has disingenuously responded to questions about conservation of momentum and energy in the supposed "progressive collapses" by saying that energy and momentum were conserved in their aircraft impact analyses, but it is not true that these impact analyses have not been questioned, nor is it proper not to question them.

This reluctance to question the aircraft impact analyses may be because they don't want to lend support to controversial theories about the planes, but this is a huge mistake in my opinion.

First, I think we can all agree that aircraft impact analyses relate to the question of how many columns would be severed, how much fireproofing would be stripped, and how much fuel would be deposited inside the buildings.

But there is another issue that I think may have been overlooked---why so many people died in and above the impact zones, either at time of impact or because they were unable to escape.

NIST NCSTAR 1-7 discusses this issue:

http://wtc.nist.gov/oct05NCSTAR1-7index.htm

NCSTAR 7 at page 106 (144 of 298), NIST says that the majority of the 18 people who survived despite being at or above the impact zone in the South Tower were in the Sky Lobby on Floor 78, and that although the stairwell on the side of the building opposite the impact remained passable, it was severely damaged.

NCSTAR 1-7 at 120 (158 of 298) says that over 1,300 people died at or above the impact zones in WTC1, and over 600 people died at or above the died at or above the impact zones in WTC2.

According to the New York Times, roughly 800 people in WTC 1 and 300 people in WTC2 survived the crashes and lived until the collapses.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F00E6DC153BF935A15756C0A...

These people are believed to have died in large part because they could not get down through the impact zones because stairwells were blocked. Reading 9/11 Commission Report Chapter 9, damage to elevators from the impacts also is said to have prevented firefighters from getting up to the impact zones where they might have . and damage to the security system is said to have kept doors to the roof locked.

NIST says that reports of blocked stairwells in Newsweek is an observable that matches their impact scenarios. They also say that people on Floor 78 were killed by a wingtip.

All this is capable of interrogation by experts, and I hope they will take a look at this, just to confirm that indeed there was no way that the hundreds of people above the impact zones were trapped there only because of planes.

Dwight

Big_D's picture

of course you're right, proves nothing

just one of those things that make you go hmm... especially considering the way things are transpiring. As for crash point analysis, I know some have been researching that issue. Could be that most see it as another point, counter point argument between truthers & the 'debunker' faction of the perps disinfo campaign leading to nothing but more wasted time.

Lazlo Toth's picture

Letter to the Crew

Great analyses and comments above: Tahooey, Cass, Gret, and Big D. As I’ve said several times, 99.9% of the time, Casseia’s analyses are spot-on, and sometimes, when I was reading Gretavo’s comments over at TA, I felt like I was in the front row watching an excellent prize fight with RT whoopin’ ass on some unsuspecting, retired Defense Dept. guy working as a “9/11 truther” on the internets. Big D doesn’t speak in pages, but when he speaks, he speaks the truth, and he is from one of the greatest cities in the world. Tahooey will keep us fair and balanced. You’re a good soul T. And Tahooey, I feel the righteous anger that you and Jpass put out there, and do not think badly of you guys at all for it. I wasn’t trying to give Danse a “free pass.” I was just trying to discuss some information that perhaps he might have missed in order to perhaps bring some understanding to the situation. Maybe I am being naive here, but I am just so tired of human beings engaged in combat at every level of the modern experience. We are literally living in an ocean of lies, treachery, and deception. I am so tired. The next person who tries to lie to me, I swear to fc-g God, I’m just gonna... William Kristol, for example, should not come within 1000 yards of me. And MLK wasn’t a saint, but he tried. I would bet a chunk of cash though that there were a lot of times MLK just wanted to smash one of those crackers’ heads right through a car window. Don’t ya think Gandhi, at least one time, when his followers were being brutally beaten, didn’t say, “OK, that’s it. Fuck this shit. It’s time to load the cannons. The British need to leave India pronto!” The non-violent path is the hardest path of all. It is FUCKING HARD. The recent Jpass censorship episodes at TA with Danse’s involvement is very reminiscent of the patterns seen during the 911B Purge last year. Are we, at WTCDemo, the new Trotskyites of the Stalinist 9/11 Truth Movement Purge? Will Frida Kahlo protect us in Mexico? I feel your pain, believe me. It is absolutely maddening to be betrayed by your own government, “elected” “representatives,” and media, and then when you seek to remedy that situation by working within a political movement to expose the criminals, the criminals form a fake 9/11 truth movement to protect the cartel who pulled the whole thing off. Then to top things off, you see the “truth movement” employing the same censorship techniques and media manipulation techniques that you just escaped from. AHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. It is the Night of the Fucking Living Dead, the Nightmare Comic-book of the Modern World. There are people working within this system of government-finance-media-academia who have told so many lies repetitively for so long that they are now actually psychologically incapable of distinguishing truth from falsehood. Empirical evidence and logic is now irrelevant. Truth and history is what the Cartel puts on the screen of the glowing box in the living room.

But take heart, because there is a real 9/11 Truth Movement out there with websites like http://www.whatreallyhappened.com,
http://www.prothink.org,
http://www.rense.com,
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com,
http://www.anti-neocons.com,
and others.
We are not alone.

And to Kate, Juan, LarryH, Keenan, Dicktater, Bruce1337, and our totally Non-wanker friend ;) from the North Atlantic, P-45,
I would rather hang out with a handful of intelligent and cool folks like y’all than waste a lot of precious time arguing and fuming at a site with 300 users where “orthodox” parameters of permissible information exist, and groundless and suspicious censorship rears its head every time real people in the real truth movement start getting close to the truth. I also want to sincerely thank you for all for the support you have given me, for your understanding, and for your friendship. These are not easy times, and I’m sure none of us thought that we would be thrown into this historically intensified situation. I salute you all for stepping up. History will remember each and every one of you, of that I am certain.

One more word out to Jpass,
I am so sorry to hear about your uncle. I just thought you were being sarcastic with Danse, as in he was talking about his father (some thought for pure sympathy purposes), and then you said you had to go because you have a family crisis too. I was reading sarcasm, and then I realized that you were serious. Anyways Jpass, if it is his time, as the Egyptians say, “May he catch a safe boat to the other shore and live in peace.” I also thank you for your bravery in moving to a new town and standing up all by yourself to educate your countrymen. You are a great man, Jpass. Be gentle and understanding with these people. You are not waking them up from a nightmare. You are waking them up to one. The actual truths about the modern world, 9/11, and the War on Terror are very, very psychologically shocking to the sleeping masses. I know you know this. I’m just saying. And the whole Zionist angle to these events - this is almost a Senior or Grad School level understanding, and we are literally fighting through a Pavlovian fog of 60 years of calculated mass media brainwashing. It’s a hard job, but somebody has to save the country. Thanks for stepping up buddy. Godspeed to you and yours.

Lazlo

gretavo's picture

yes, but

You are not waking them up from a nightmare. You are waking them up to one.

And then waking them up to the fact that the nightmare need not exist!  I feel a whole lot happier since fully coming to terms with the staggering amount of fraud I'd been subjected to all my life.  The lovely dream that most people live in is fake and, like it was on 9/11, is punctuated with horrific atrocities designed to enslave us.

Lazlo Toth's picture

Touché, G

I know what you are talking about. I, like you, have always been the type of person who wants to know the truth, and the whole truth, no matter how bad it might be. I have always been the guy standing in the back of any crowd saying, “According to the empirical information I’m receiving, that king is wearing no clothes at all. Is anyone catching any of this?” And the crowd turned to him and said: “STFU! You’re banned.”

“The nightmare need not exist.” Now you are into realms of Buddhist and Vedanta philosophy. At death, will you step away consciously from the tangled, passionate, illusory world, simultaneously realizing that is was like a very, very real dream, and it was an experience to test which side of the balance you would choose to come out on? Would you try to rule the world and become a monster in the process, or would you feel empathy with suffering beings and work for their justice and their peace? This would be your test. Is there a ‘moral universe’? I’m just asking.

BTW, I really like your new avatar, and I keep meaning to tell Casseia, that I absolutely love her Frida Kahlo avatar. Another good T-shirt design. Frida Kahlo is a genius. We are all standing up against that Chinese tank. Like I said, it’s a test.

Keenan's picture

Thanks again Lazlo

I always appreciate your words and your perspectives you share unselfishly with us all, and the time you put into your blog posts. It's too bad that your posts can't be posted on TA, and then left there and not promptly deleted. Dialogue is what is needed, not censorship. I think jpass said it right when he pointed out that, "we are one faction working out kinks, not two factions". At least that is what I would prefer to believe, anyway.

I just attended an awesome conference here in Santa Cruz last weekend, the "Publicizing Truths with Consequence" media summit. The attendees were about 1/3 911 activists and 2/3 media activists and other truth/social movements. I actually had a chance to talk with Cosmos and a couple of others who blog on TA. One thing I realized is that people tend to be a lot more civil and polite to each other in person. I would say that if all of these faceless bloggers were able to connect with each other in person, there would be a lot less misunderstandings and accusations of dishonest motives between activists. Of course there are shills that have infiltrated the movement, but I would estimate that of all the accusations of shillery and such being thrown around, at least 90% of the accusations are probably not true, and the 10% that are true are probably nearly impossible to prove with 100% certainty. Anyway, just an observation, and a reminder to myself that the real world is out there on the streets, and not so much on the blogsphere.

casseia's picture

Good point.

I'm sure that I will be quite congenial (or at least civil)the next time I encounter some of these people in person.

It's not only a question of dishonest motives, though -- as I'm sure you know. There are just plain BAD motives that may be expressed sincerely. I'm sure that accounts for the majority of conflicts.

Lazlo Toth's picture

Thank you Keenan for reminding us that Jpass is right

about the 9/11 Truth Movement. There really is a real 9/11 Truth Movement of real people who really care about the state of their country and their world, and that this 9/11 movement is not only an American movement. It is international. It is an international human movement that says NO to the sick shit that a small psychologically fucked up minority of people who should be locked up in prisons for the criminally insane are trying to accomplish.

And yeah, I knew about that big media summit in Santa Cruz. I’m glad you got to go and check it out. Santa Cruz is a town and area blessed by the Great Spirit Herself. You are lucky to live there. Over here, we are getting ready for the big march to the Israeli Embassy for Anti-Israeli Apartheid Week. No slingshots will be allowed this year, or so I hear.

Big_D's picture

C'mon, give us the scoop, Keenan.

I'm not an 'old hen' but it had to of gotten a little awkward when they realized who you were.

And you're right, you can't be sure who's cointel & who's not. I just find it very fucking interesting that life seems to get a WHOLE lot easier for those who tow the 'official' line.

casseia's picture

Yeah, Keenan

I just want a report on the conference -- no nasty gossip need be included :)

Make it a blog.

gretavo's picture

were you displaying your avatar?

that wouldve given you away quick... :)

Big_D's picture

Since you like playing with avatars, G.

Hook me up with one of the little Palestinian boy throwing a rock at an IDF tank. I'm almost willing to bet you've already got it prepared for yourself, if so, cool, I'll live with mine.

gretavo's picture

my pleasure!

i had not made one yet--i would much prefer people suggest ideas for cool avatars and i can whip em out...

from each according to their need, to each according to their ability!

Big_D's picture

Thanks, G.

I like it.

Tahooey's picture

Thanks Laszlo

I don't think you gave Danse a pass at all, in fact I thought you sort of took him to task there, with what you wrote.

And I don't mean to advocate hate or violence by my emotional reaction to Danse. A more dispassionate response might have been:

Danse, your recent racist posts are not the type we'd like to see appearing on this site. In fact, there are rules against it. Until you are able to refrain from posting

A) racist remarks, or

B) remarks insinuating that users of this site are racist, or will become racist, as a result of reading material found on this site,

I respectfully request that you please do not post here.

-T

Posh Israeli's picture

which is to the choosing of better video for new Hillary ad?

Scary's?


or Sporty's?


Harley Guy's picture

and yours, Posh...


casseia's picture

The homophobia is a nice touch.

"Turn Iran into a parking lot." Sick.

Schoolchildren in Eram gardens, Shiraz, Iran