Avery, Gold, & Hicks - The ISI Goose Chase
Avery, Gold, Hicks...listen up. This is the last time I'm going to spend my morning schooling you three on the facts surrounding the..."General Mahmood of the ISI wired 100K to Atta for 911" narrative.
When you hear someone claim that...
"the fbi confirmed that General Mahmood wired 100K to Atta" the likely source is...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1566916,00.html
Why then is Omar Sheikh not being dealt with when he is already under
sentence of death? Astonishingly his appeal to a higher court against
the sentence was adjourned in July for the 32nd time and has since been
adjourned indefinitely. This is all the more remarkable when this is
the same Omar Sheikh who, at the behest of General Mahmood Ahmed, head
of the ISI, wired $100,000 to Mohammed Atta, the leading 9/11 hijacker,
before the New York attacks, as confirmed by Dennis Lormel, director of
FBI's financial crimes unit.
Did the FBI confirm that the ISI sent $100,000.00? No. As far as I can tell...the FBI confirmed that the transaction did indeed take place. They did not confirm WHO sent the money. If you read the excerpt above...again..you will notice a crafty use of wording that could be mistaken to mean that Dennis Lormel(FBI) confirmed that the ISI wired the money.
It is worth noting that Dennis Lormel is the ex-head of the FBI's financial crimes unit. Personally, I'd be very skeptical of anyone in charge of anything having to do with terrorism pre-911. Obviously, someone allowed these attacks to happen and covered them up. This guy is currently working in the booming private sector of anti-terrorist consulting. Someone has to reap the benefits after 911 right?
So did Dennis Lormel confirm that the ISI sent the money? Show me the money.
For the sake of retaining reader's interest I'm going to switch gears. I want to provide some responses from those who push this stuff hard. These responses are to the skeptics who dare look into the sources of this ISI narrative....and I can't help but notice that I'm being accused of egotism, divisveness, being at odds with family members, lacking critical thinking skills, etc. etc.
John Doraemi
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/2007/05/pakistani-smoking-gun-of-911.html
Many people don't understand or choose not to believe that evidence
exists of multiple wire transfers in excess of $100,000 to alleged
"lead hijacker" Mohammed Atta prior to 9/11, and that these wire
transfers are linked to the then head of Pakistani intelligence (ISI).
This has blatantly been covered up by the Bush regime, by the
Congressional Joint Inquiry, and by the 9/11 Commission, which this
article will clearly show.This is a complex area, and is clearly the subject of a vigorous disinformation campaign. Many aliases have appeared in US newspapers which don't correlate to the names given in previous reports regarding: just who IS this "Al Qaeda paymaster?" [1]
If you have some time, definitely read the Cooperative Research compendium of news accounts regarding Ahmed Omar Sayed Sheikh.
[2] As you can imagine, his name can be spelled in numerous ways, as
can any of his aliases. This has been a source of much confusion.
Mr. Diraemi wants to convince you that this story is soooo confusing that you just don't understand it. And if you have studied it...and don't put all your eggs in the ISI basket-case...then you have some sort of mental block on the truth.
Mr. Diraemi and I agree on one thing though....he says...
"This is a....clearly the subject of a vigorous disinformation campaign."
John Doraemi
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5945#comment-113866
In his first response to my first skeptical blog about the ISI / Atta narrative....
"JPass is not a serious customer, or a serious thinker, whatsoever."
He then goes on to chastize me when I tell him I'm a web developer and says that, because of what I have written on the ISI, I could not be a web developer.....(???)
pdevlinbuckley - 911 Blogger in response to my skeptical blog about the ISI/911 Narrative
Trying to discredit 9/11 Press For Truth by labeling Paul Thompson
(who has certainly done more research on Omar Sheikh than you) as a
disinfo agent is divisive and counterproductive.What exactly do you expect to gain from this post?
Your accusations, which are quite serious, are based on pure
speculation, and you have yet to provide a single piece of evidence to
support your claims, all while accusing others of doing the same thing.Jpass's argument is ridiculous on its face.
Jon Gold (using the Family Members card)
So far all you've done is question every source posted about it. Yet,
it is accepted by the family members that fought for the creation of
the Commission, as well as the majority of the movement.
As far as jpass is concerned, we are all just sheep following disinformation.
Jon Gold (bringing my personal information to the debate)
"Is your name Jesse from the PA 9/11 Visibility Group?"\
Gold then refers to me by my first name in the blog.
THis is important because soon after PDEVLINBUCKLEY would write what I consider an inflamatory blog using my FULL NAME.
Jon Gold demonstrating his lack of knowledge about the basics of this ISI scenario....
That Executive Order 13224 mentioned, Shaykh Sai'id (aka, Mustafa Muhammad Ahmad)?
Shaykh Sai'id is not the same person Jon Gold. As a researcher you should know that this Executive order refers to an entirely different person.
Jon Gold would also claim that the 911 Commission mentioned the ISI Said in their footnotes. Not so Jon Gold. The 911 Commission was referring to the known Al Queada Shaykh...not your ISI man.
I could go on but I think the point has been made. If you STILL want to read about the ISI read this blog and all the comments that follow to fully understand WHY the Pakistani/ ISI narrative has not be substantiated.
Omar Saeed Sheikh Disinfo Goose Chase? - jpass 911blogger.com
If you are interested in the inflamtory piece that PdevlinBuckley wrote...using my entire FULL NAME in what I felt was a creepy sort of retaliation for my blog linked above......you can read it here...
9/11 Press For Truth Accused of Spreading Disinformation
Note that I had asked 911Blogger to remove my full name so the opening statement has been modified. I did not find this blog for MONTHS and when I did I was taken back by the inflamatory tone and the use of my real name....indirectly pitting me against...oh no...911 Family Members.
Current Version....
"This is a full response to the recent blog entry
accusing 9/11 Press For Truth of spreading disinformation via the ISI
link to 9/11."
Previous Version....
"This is a full response to the recent blog entry by Jesse Passwaters accusing 911 Press For Truth of Spreading disinformation via the ISI link to 911"
The poster then goes on to ask everyone to be civil while being overly inflamatory himself...towards me. Here are some quick quotes...
(points to Pdev for incorporating my real name AND location and props to 911Blogger for not removing it after I requested that it be taken out of the blog.)
"In a recent blog entry
that has received a warm welcome from about half of the ‘9/11 Bloggers’
to view it, Jesse Passwaters of PA 911 Visibility argues that the ISI
money trail is nothing but disinformation that was cooked up by the
U.S. in October 2001 in order to establish a link between al-Qaeda and
the 9/11 attacks.
According to Jessie, those of us pursuing the
ISI-CIA connection to 9/11, including Paul Thompson of
cooperativeresearch.org and the family members behind 9/11 Press For Truth, are all on a “Wild Disinfo Goose Chaseâ€.
He argues that the segment of 9/11 Press For Truth summarizing the $100,000 connection “is soooo entirely full of inconsistencies and contradictions†that he “can't believe so many people have swallowed this stuff hook line and sinker.â€
Despite his assertions and lack of modesty, Jessie
has only presented a few brief points to support his premise, all of
which, as I will show below, are highly flawed.
“The recipe for perpetual ignorance,†Albert Hubbard once wrote, “is
to be satisfied with your opinions and content with your knowledge.â€
With these words in mind, I hope all parties will fully examine both
sides of the issue and draw their own conclusions, regardless of their
current preconceptions.ted a few brief points to support his premise, all of
which, as I will show below, are highly flawed."
"The disinformation theory, as demonstrated above, is irrational and lacks any factual backing."
"Divisive back-and-forth accusations of
disinformation are becoming more and more common amongst the truth
community. We must rise above such counterproductive accusations and
unite under our common belief in truth and justice.
We must not forget that we are all on the same side in pursuit the same goal. We all agree that we’ve been lied to. We all seek answers to the same questions. Let
us therefore work together to produce enough evidence to paint a
picture so clear that the facts will speak for themselves and debate
will no longer be necessary."
Read again....
"Debate will no longer be necessary"
In this blog, PDevlinBuckly...like Jon Gold...prove to us their total lack of understanding on a narrative they claim is rock solid. They have used sources like the 911 Commission Foot note and the Presidential Executive Order....that refer to entirely different Al Queada boogy men.
You Decide.
- Jpass's blog
- Login to post comments
How many porkchops does $100k buy?
That's the real question.
I think the fact that blogger still has not redacted your name and location is something that will be used against them at my earliest convenience -- or more specifically, used the next time someone is making a big deal about how the bad, bad Hauptoids are trying to intimidate them. Double standard much, when it comes to someone like "pdevlinbuckley"?
Ironically Again....
I have a pan full of bacon bubbling as you ask about pork...
Ironically...
I met a few of the posters on this web site after I wrote this Goose Chase blog. You will notice their comments if you wade through them.
I want to also state that I am not claiming anyone is spreading disinformation. My blog linked above was a question, not a statement of fact or opinion. I posed the question...
"is the isi narrative disinformation?"
Â
Edit: on second thought...it's not so ironic.
...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26249
According to accounts in both The Times of India and India Today, former ISI chief Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmad instructed Sheikh to send the $100,000 to Atta.
"A direct link between the ISI and the WTC attack could have enormous repercussions," the Times article said. "The U.S. cannot but suspect whether there were other senior Pakistani Army commanders who were in the know of things."
It added: "Evidence of a larger conspiracy could shake U.S. confidence in Pakistan's ability to participate in the anti-terrorism coalition."
The Times says Ahmad lost his job only after India shared with the FBI evidence showing a link between the general and Sheikh's wiring of funds to Atta.
J-e-M's accounts were frozen not long after Dennis M. Lormel, director of FBI's financial crimes unit, confirmed the $100,000 transaction, if not the source.
"They wired over $100,000 into Mr. [Mohamed] Atta a year ago," he testified in October, not identifying who "they" were.
http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress03/pistole073103.htm
A continuing investigation, in coordination with the PENTTBOMB Team, has traced the origin of the funding of 9/11 back to financial accounts in Pakistan, where high-ranking and well-known Al Qa'ida operatives played a major role in moving the money forward, eventually into the hands of the hijackers located in the U.S.
January 22-25, 2002: India Tells FBI Director About Saeed Sheikh Connection to 9/11
FBI Director Mueller visits India, and is told by Indian investigators that Saeed Sheikh sent ransom money to hijacker Mohamed Atta in the US. In the next few days, Saeed is publicly blamed for his role with gangster Aftab Ansari in financing Atta and organizing the Calcutta attack (see January 22, 2002). [Press Trust of India, 1/22/2002; Los Angeles Times, 1/23/2002; Independent, 1/24/2002; Agence France-Presse, 1/27/2002; Daily Telegraph, 1/27/2002] Meanwhile, on January 23, Saeed helps kidnap reporter Daniel Pearl and is later arrested. Also on January 23, Ansari is placed under surveillance after flying to Dubai, United Arab Emirates. On January 24, Mueller and US Ambassador to Pakistan Wendy Chamberlin discuss Saeed at a previously scheduled meeting with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. Apparently Saeed’s role in Pearl’s kidnapping is not yet known. [Associated Press, 2/24/2002] On Mueller’s way back to the US he flies to Dubai to pressure the government there to arrest Ansari and deport him to India. Ansari is arrested on February 5 and deported four days later. [Associated Press, 2/10/2002; Frontline (Chennai), 2/16/2002; India Today, 2/25/2002]
There's more. Nah, there's NO reason at all to think the ISI story is legitimate.
Jon, Jon, Jon...
What are they alleging this money was used for? Where is the actual money trail?
What does this have to do with the demolition of the World Trade Center?
What reasons might India have to frame Pakistan?
Do you understand the difference between a story that is repeated in various (controlled and complicit) media and a story that is actually credibly sourced?
There's more. But whatever, this must all be the subject of a cover-up at the behest of the strong pro-Pakistan lobby in the U.S.
And the dancing Israelis were... just... documenting the event. Yup. No doubt to catch the Pakistanis red-handed...
....
speaking of the dancing Israelis, i was wondering, that 'documenting the event' quote, are we really getting the 100% accurate translation of this?
I am not saying we do or don't, im just sceptical. After having seen quite a few european- subtitled 911 movies with a few VERY MISSlEADING translations. It sometimes doesnt require that much to cause a big difference....
Anyway, im also wondering , cause... i mean, why would they tell this on TV ?
Could it maybe be that they were just refering to their taking of photographs, when they were saying 'to document the event'. In the sense of , "we didnt really do anything wrong. It was just that this happend, and - because we poor israelis are often victims of terror - we documented it with our cameras" , sort of way.?
Maybe someone could clear this up with more infos or something. Again, im not here to "debunk" that story, im just sceptical when it depends on a translation on a youtube video. Theres probably more about this i am not aware of yet..?
Thanks !
Hmmm...
I thought they said that in English while they were still here in the US -- that could be an incorrect assumption.
Yeah, inaccurate translations are a bitch... like that whole "wipe Israel off the map" thing that Ahmedinejad didn't say.Â
...
the only source i can find for this are videos on youtube from that israeli tv show.
plus many reports about that same tv show in english. but it seems they all refer to that same quote.
i dont know, this story just doesnt seem to be the 'truth goldmine' to me like some here seem to think.
Explosives found in the van ? What does that mean? what does it have to do with 911?
And, as said, why would they tell this on a tv show, if they were some sort of pro agents??
None
"The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34250,00.html
dancing israelis
tbh im still not quite so sure about all this, or where this story leads to.
foreknowledge? they monitored the 'hijackers'? The Mossad Lihoped on 911, and didnt tell the clueless US-agencies about the evil plan of crazed muslims?
And this coverage on 'democrazy now'... Hm, Amy Goodman and co. are not exactly known for being interested in the truth about 911, or are they? And then suddenly they talk about the "smoking gun" like this?
Could it maybe be that there is a bit of a double standard being applied here?
I mean, the ISI story doesnt convice me neither, but....
at the very least
Even at the very least,  if one does not or cannot believe that this is a smoking gun for isreali (an element of israeli) involvement in the crimes of 9/11, even after testimony to the FBI that "they thought this would be good for Israel!", the fact that these "people" were videotaping the disaster, videotaping each other celebrating, high-5ing, in other words were elated to be watching 3000 innocent people burned or blown apart, and thousands of others injured or traumatized, should weigh heavy on one's heart and mind.....what do you think? come on, at the very least?
on the other hand, if they just happened to be members of the mysterious work crew that had been so busy in the WTC buildings leading up to 9/11 with all their "elevator modernizations in the hoist-ways"....Â
...
"...should weigh heavy on one's heart and mind.....what do you think? come on, at the very least?"
sure! but i still don't see the "smoking gun", however disgusting it is.
and i highly doubt they were part of the demolition team. Would somebody directly involved in in act like this, out in the open?? i dunno, sounds pretty strange to me. of course i can't say 'impossible' , but i have a feeling the people who are that directly involved in this act a bit more 'professional' . how else did they manage to hide all this for so long ?
all this said, its not like i think some israeli involvement is unlikely.. not at all. i just dont see where *this* story leads to. somewhat suspicious imo
good point
for all we know the dancers made a show of themselves precisely so that we would fixate on them, after which they could show that there was no "there" there. which doesn't mean that a bunch of Israelis DIDN'T set the demolition charges. Or that they did. But whatever the five dancers were doing, it should not have been hushed up, and we would be fools not to demand that someone get to the bottom of ALL of this, including AIPAC and other spies. Simply put, Israel is NOT a good friend to the US, 9/11 or no 9/11.
young, excited,
and full-of-themselves, as youths tend to be - Â high on the danger, but oblivious to the future.
Yeah, I expected as much from you 'Annoymouse'.
See RT's comment below, as well as Dr. Toth's. It is well documented Israeli agents can be PROVEN to have had much more direct involvement in 9/11 than Patsystan or any patsy Arabs.
BTW, Your willful ignorance is showing.
Big_D,
and i expected about as much from you, Big_D.
You havent been able to provide an answer to my 'where does this story lead to / lihop?' question, nor my other concerns that this story is just a bit WEIRD (why would they tell it on TV? why act so f** suspicios out in the open??) but come around and throw words like 'Patsystan' around. See, as i said, FOR ME this is not a competition between this and the ISI story. For you it seems to be. I wonder , do you hold the dancing israelis story to the same standard as non-Israeli ones? What would your comment be if 'democracy now' would report about the ISI having had foreknowledge about 911? Honestly, Mr. Big D, WHAT would be your reaction ?
Thanks to Gretavo for a sensible answer above. Glad to see that not everyone here looses it as soon as someone is critical of an israeli 'smoking gun'
If 5 Pakistani men
...just replace "Pakistani" for Israeli.....5 Pakistani men were reported videotaping and celebrating....
and also in the spy ring that was picked up and deported....and then replace every neocon dual (Israeli-American) citizen who was in some position of power before, during, and after 9/11 (you know, like Dov)....talk about applying double standards!
WTF??
So now i was banned for that last comment??
Care to let me know WHY?
for the record
I haven't even looked into the Israeli dancers very much or the explosives found in a van story.
"what does that have to do with 911?"
Well, if explosives were found in a van at a popular bridge in NYC / NJ I believe that is very substantial and there is a good chance it's related to the attacks on 911.
The thing about the dancing Israelis that should stick out to everyone is that they were physical arrested and detained after witnesses saw them celebrating.
This is not like the ISI Goose Chase where we are supposed to believe in a tale of spooks and triple agents based on the story from the Times of India which after years and years has yet to be corroborated by hard facts.
info on dancing israelis
http://whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
Also Paul Thompson's Terror Timeline:
3:56 p.m. September 11, 2001: Five Apparent Israeli Spies Arrested for Puzzling Behavior at Time of First WTC Attack
Entity Tags: Yaron Shmuel, Sivan Kurzberg, Urban Moving Systems, World Trade Center, Paul Kurzberg, Scott DeCarlo, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Dennis Rivelli, Omer Marmari, Oded Ellner, Israel Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks (Mossad)
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline
October 10, 2001: Two Israelis Are Detained in Mexican Legislature Building after Behaving Suspiciously and Found To Be Carrying Arms
Two Israelis, Salvador Gersson Smike, 34, and Sar Ben Zui, 27, are arrested in the Mexican Congress Building in Mexico City. Smike is carrying a plastic 9 mm sophisticated Glock 9 mm pistol tucked into his underwear in his lower back. Glock pistols are made with a special plastic material and are very easy to smuggle. [Correo, 10/11/2001; El Heraldo de Mexico (Mexico City), 10/11/2001; Cronica de Hoy (Mexico City), 10/12/2001] He also has with him a briefcase reported to contain 58 bullets, bomb-making materials, three detonators, and nine grenades. [El Heraldo de Mexico (Mexico City), 10/11/2001] The two were apprehended after ex-sugarcane workers, who were waiting for a congressional hearing, saw the two Israelis behaving strangely at around 4:00 p.m. They were reportedly photographing the workers below the belt. When the workers demanded that the two men identify themselves, the Israelis said they were press photographers. The workers dismissed their claims, overcame them, and then discovered they were armed with pistols and other high caliber arms. The two men had apparently also been seen the day before taking pictures. [Cronica de Hoy (Mexico City), 10/12/2001] Security guards soon arrived, disarmed the men, and took them to the security office. At around 6:00 p.m., it is learned that the two men are Israelis and that one of them, Salvador Gersson, is a former colonel of the Israeli Special Forces. [Correo, 10/11/2001; Diario de Mexico (Mexico City), 10/11/2001Â
] Soon after, a man claiming to be a supervisor from the company, Desarrollo de Sistemas de Seguridad Privada (Private Security Systems Development), says the two men are employees at the firm and that they were taking pictures because they are “vacationing.†The journalists who are present scoff at the claim. [Correo, 10/11/2001; El Heraldo de Mexico (Mexico City), 10/11/2001] After October 13, no additional information is reported about the incident.
Entity Tags: Salvador Gersson Smike, Sar Ben Zui, Private Security Systems Development
Timeline Tags: Western Support for Islamic Militancy, Complete 911 Timeline
November 20, 2001: Israelis Who Videotaped WTC Attack Are Released, Deported
The five Israelis arrested on 9/11 for videotaping the WTC attack and then cheering about it (see 3:56 p.m. September 11, 2001) are released and deported to Israel. Some of the men’s names had appeared in a US national intelligence database, and the FBI has concluded that at least two of the men were working for the Mossad, according to ABC News. However, the FBI says that none of the Israelis had any advanced knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, and they were released as part of a deal between the US and the Israeli government. After their release, they claim to have been tortured. [Forward, 3/15/2002; ABC News, 6/21/2002]
Entity Tags: Israel Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks (Mossad), Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Omer Marmari, Oded Ellner, Israel, Federal Bureau of Investigation
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline
November 23, 2001: More Israelis Arrested in Wake of 9/11
The Washington Post reports that “[a]t least 60 young Israeli Jews have been arrested and detained around the country on immigration charges since the September 11 attacks, many of them held on US government officials’ invocation of national security.†An INS official who requested anonymity says the use of the term “special interest†for Israelis being held in Cleveland, St. Louis, and other places means the case in question is “related to the investigation of September 11th.†[Washington Post, 11/23/2001] Most of them are deported. However, Intelligence Online claims that “For the overwhelming majority of the ring’s members expelled, there was no problem at all with visas, and in the lists we only found a few minor cases of expired visas.â€â€ [Agence France-Presse, 3/6/2002]
Entity Tags: Immigration and Naturalization Service
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline
December 12-15, 2001: News Reports Raises Israeli Spying Questions
Entity Tags: Israel, Amdocs, Immigration and Naturalization Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Drug Enforcement Agency
Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline
skeptical? at first read, well, yeah. But,
it's the jumping up and down,  high-fives,  the pursuit and apprehension in a van (moving company front story) containing explosive material, arabic garb, lots of money, (it's not israel, it's the palestinians!) etc., and then being detained, and then released by none other than Chertoff, etc.Â
so where did that story really come from? the first time i read this was on a serendipity.li page, but apparently there was an article in the Bergen Record...
The Movers and Art Students File
Yes, Kate the original article that brought the so-called “Dancing Israelis†to our attention appeared on 9/12/01 in the major newspaper of Bergen County, NJ – “The Record.†The article, “Five Men Detained as Suspected Conspirators,†was written by staff writer Paulo Lima. In Part Five of my long article/book here I will be going into some of the more interesting details of these fellows and their other military-intelligence companions apprehended around the U.S. and Mexico during the 9/11 period and its aftermath. I have whole press files along with published police radio transcripts on this full spectrum foreign terrorist presence in the U.S. during 9/11 – No Arabs, but a whole lot of moving vans filled with various types of military style explosives and driven by groups of men with “middle eastern†appearances. All were posing as movers. All turned out to have Israeli military and intelligence connections. Some were in fact caught up in Casseia’s sector of the country outside a U.S. military base driving around in a van with explosives and box cutters, the usual.
This front page article in “The Record†basically stated that, based on an F.B.I. BOLO (Be On The LOokout) issued at 3:31 pm on September 11th, East Rutherford, NJ police, at 4:30 pm, stopped and detained five men driving along Rt. 3 in a white Chevy van with “Urban Moving Systems†written on the back. These men said they were Israeli tourists. Three of the men were seen previously in the day, at the time of the attacks, celebrating in Liberty State Park in Jersey City, a great spot to film the WTC right across the river. This article does not mention the Israeli movers and the bomb on the George Washington Bridge incident. That is another article. San Jose Mercury News put out some interesting coverage on these things, as well as some of the press in the U.K. This group of Five Israelis (the standard Mossad number for a single covert op team, cf. the same magic number is woven into the story of the al-Quesadilla hijack teams – Five) was divided into the three Israelis at Liberty Park filming and the two connected to the bomb-laden van on the George Washington Bridge. This divided team operated two different vans. One van is dropped, and the three pick up the other two. Basic split-team operation.
This article also mentions that the vans were all registered to Urban Moving Systems with offices on W. 50th Street in Manhatten and W. 18th Street in Weehawken, NJ. Business records showed the owner as Dominik Suter of Fair Lawn, NJ (who suddenly fled back to Israel after a first round of questioning by FBI agents). The article also mentions that the FBI had to call in a bomb squad to deal with these “moving vansâ€
Remember how Bush saw the first plane hit on TV, and remember how the “Dancing Israelis were seen filming “the event†– well I have an unsettling hunch that these lads were there, not only to cause a wave of further terror across Manhattan, but also to provide Bushco with a LIVE FEED of “the Event.†There’s much more, and it gets worse, but I have to rush off.
I see that everyone is hard at work on this. and here ends my two cents on the matter until later. Good work and good luck to all.
Peace to y’all See you all later...
good search and good luck!
we await your research, good patriot! (even if you may be a Canadian!)Â
hey, is there sucha thing as a matriot??? well, that be I!
Indian-Israeli Relations
The following item is a bit of a brief survey of the development of relations between India and Israel:
http://www.saag.org/papers2/paper131.html
It should be a reminder that India and Israel first developed their foreign relations through the intelligence services on an anti-Muslim basis, with Pakistan clearly viewed as a common enemy. I agree that the story of the dancing Israelis deserves some skepticism and may just have been a staged diversion. The role of the Israel lobby in pushing for war in Iraq is more clearly documented however. If we allow, not on the basis of the dancing Israelis but on the basis of "A Clean Break" and other clear advance indicators, that the Israel lobby may very well have played an important role in 911; and if we recognize that Israeli intelligence has been developing close ties with Indian intelligence for several decades now, long before the official recognition of Israel by India in 1992; then it would not seem altogether bizarre to accept that Indian intelligence may very well have had some advance warnings of 911, while Israeli intelligence may have had considerably more than just 'warnings.' Under a set of hypotheses of this type, one could readily account for a report appearing mysteriously in the TIMES OF INDIA which points a finger at Pakistan.
This should clear up some of
This should clear up some of the questions about the dancing Israelis story. The transcript of the ABC story by Walters & Miller. The version which I found is at:
http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html
Unless someone knows of errors in this copy on the Walters & Miller story, it does seem to answer a lot of the basic questions.
First we have the description of events by Maria:
-----
(VO) On the morning of September 11th, Maria--who asked us not to use her last name--was home preparing for her day, when she got a call from a friend who lived upstairs in the same New Jersey high-rise.
MARIA: She was sitting when she heard a noise, at the same time she felt like it--it shook--like the building shook, she said. She called me immediately. She said, 'You know, there's--there's something wrong, look at your window by the twin towers.' So I grab my binoculars and I could see the towers from my window.
And this is where I, you know, I'm looking. I saw the smoke from the top, just from the top of the towers.
MILLER: (VO) After watching for a little while, something caught Maria's at-tention in the parking lot below her window.
MARIA: Like a few minutes must have gone on, and all of a sudden down there I see this van park. And I see three guys on top of the van, and I'm trying, you know, to look at the building but what caught my attention, they seemed to be taking a movie.
MILLER: (VO) Maria says the three young men were kneeling on the roof of a white van. It was parked right here. They were taking pictures of each other with the World Trade Center burning in the background.
MARIA: And I could see that they were, like, happy, you know? They--they--they weren't--they didn't look shocked to me, you know? They didn't look shocked. I thought it was very strange.
-----
So they arrived after the first plane hit and they started taking pictures. Nothing odd about that. Lots of people took pictures after the first hit. What got attention was that they didn't seem shocked. That might be taken as a sign of a bad attitude, but not as real evidence that they were involved in carrying off 911. Now the key phrase which grabs everyone's attention:
-----
Mr. PAUL KURZBERG: (Through translator) I went to work over there because, I don't know, the situation here is not the best.
MILLER: (VO) This is Kurzberg's younger brother, Sivan, who was one of the three men on top of the van that morning.
Mr. SIVAN KURZBERG: (Through translator) They took away two months of my life. During that time I was supposed to be on a trip that I had planned when I started my military service.
MILLER: (VO) Although Paul and Sivan would not talk with us about the inci-dent, Sivan and two of the other detainees did go on an Israeli talk show after their return. Oded Ellner denied they were laughing or happy that today.
Mr. ODED ELLNER: (Through translator, from Israeli talk show) Nothing of the kind, the fact of the matter is, we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.
-----
Do people catch the sense of what he's saying? He does not say "the reason we traveled all the way from Israel to America was to document an event which we knew in advance would happen." Instead we have two people, Kurzberg and Ellner. The first one, Kurzberg, tells us that "I went to work over there because, I don't know, the situation here is not the best." OK, there already in the USA in the New Jersey area. Suddenly 911 starts to occur and people everywhere in sight begin looking for a chance to take pictures. These guys get up on top of a van after the first plane has hit and according to the second one, Ellner, "Our purpose was to document the event." Nothing surprising about that. Anyone who took pictures that day was documenting the event.
so what you are saying, annoymouse
is that we should take the suspected collaborators word for it, that they were not involved?
What would clear up the subject a little is if we acknowledge the fact that the suspects REPEATEDLY failed lie detector tests, presumably asking them about their involvement in the crimes they were documenting!
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm
Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives.
The investigation, at the end of the day, after all the polygraphs, all of the field work, all the cross-checking, the intelligence work, concluded that they probably did not have advance knowledge of 9/11," Cannistraro noted. (Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS)
yeah, i'm sure it was all an innocent misunderstanding, wasn't it annoymouse?
> What would clear up the
> What would clear up the subject a little is if we acknowledge the fact that the suspects REPEATEDLY failed lie detector tests
If you had bothered to read the report, then you'd know that that was addressed:
http://911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html
-----
MILLER: (VO) For the FBI, deciphering the truth about the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie de-tector test. But after 10 weeks in jail he did take the polygraph and failed it. One of his lawyers later told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once work for Israeli intelligence in another country. Later, he took a second polygraph test. His lawyer says the results were more favorable.
-----
> yeah, i'm sure it was all an innocent misunderstanding, wasn't it annoymouse?
Who says? What is clear is that any sinister interpretation of this event would have to assign it a false flag status, possibly a deliberately staged false flag event, but certainly the catching of real operatives who played an instrumental role in 911. The hoopala which has been raised over the statement "Our purpose was to document the event" is clearly based upon a distorted quotation out of context. The fact that the testimony of Maria, the witness who called the police in the first place, makes it clear that their truck drove up and they got out while the attack on the Towers was in process means that they played no operative role in the attack itself, except possibly as false flag dupes. Certainly the real perps wouldn't be able to so easily change their places while such an important operation is in motion.
dude...
They were arrested. They were working illegaly in the US for a company that was determined by the FBI to be a Mossad front. The owner of the company fled the country after a single visit from the feds. When they were arrested the dancing Israelis told the police that "the Palestinians are your problem."
It is no secret that Israelis think very poorly of Americans and their intelligence, and that they know very well that they have lots of agents in top places which explains why these guys acted like such jerks.
For you to seize on something like the "misinterpretation" of one of their lies "we were there to docuiment the event" just makes it more clear what your agenda is. I do not for one second put any stock in ANY interpretation of their lie. They were absolutely NOT there to document the event. They were there most likely to help PERPETRATE the event and their cockiness got them caught. If they're no longer employed by Mossad then it's probable that they were fired for being such idiots. But then again, what kind of idiot would volunteer for or agree to participate in this operation in the first place?
Everything about 9/11 and the cover-up, especially the lame attempts to divert attention by the fake truth movement point in the direction of Israel. They may feel that they can do whatever they want to the Palestinians and get away with it, and they are sadly probably right about that. But thinking they could take liberties as they did on 9/11 and get away with it, that was their biggest mistake. I can feel the desperation steadily building, and it is because you all know that there is going to be hell to pay. Now, I allow for every opportunity for the right people to do the right thing and they don't seem to be interested. That is sad. Like drunken gamblers they keep thinking that if they hold out a little longer they will win everything back. Try to understand this--it's not going to happen. You have lost. Accept it. Stop lying, and take your medicine with whatever shred of dignity you may have left.
> Everything about 9/11 and
> Everything about 9/11 and the cover-up, especially the lame attempts to divert attention by the fake truth movement point in the direction of Israel.
A statement like this is a broad generality. One can agree with some of it, or all of it, but it says nothing one way or another on the matter of what were these Israelis doing. Since they didn't arrive and get on the truck until 911 had begun, but was still in operation, and since 911 definitely was a well-planned operation carried out by experts, we may safely assume that the only possible role such people could have been playing, if any at all, would have been as false flag dupes.
Whether or not they were there to document the event, or possibly just sent as a false flag on the side to make sure that the panoply of Saudi and Pakistani false flags would not be alone, is beside the point. Since the matter has been raised as to whether the one man's sentence about documenting an event had any overt implications of a sinister sort, we can now note the fact that it clearly did not when read in context. Whether that means he was simply telling the truth or servicing some other agenda is another question, but not one that can be upheld either way with the sentence about documenting the event.
You have a wildly rhetorical style with phrases such as "you all." A rather demagogic form I must say. Learn to address specific points one at a time and you'll acquire more clarity.
wildly rhetorical demagogue and lunatic god all in one day...
>You have a wildly rhetorical style with phrases such as "you all." A rather demagogic form I must say.
dude, i get called the craziest things! i wouldn't expect otherwise. you all come back now ya hear? :)
you were such a cute little kid
what happened!
Hey i love Gilad Atzmon...was listening, playing, watching
his YouTube Liberating The American People
check out December 14 on TRK
what happened?
puberty! made my nose big and my hair all frizzy, sigh... i'll check out the GA vid, thanks!
[update] nice tune to groove to! of course I got caught up in the comments where some Zionist was calling him an anti-semite (he didn't even Atzmon the courtesy of calling him a self-hater!)
what did they do before they danced
>> Since they didn't arrive and get on the truck until 911 had begun, but was still in operation, and since 911 definitely was a well-planned operation carried out by experts, we may safely assume that the only possible role such people could have been playing, if any at all, would have been as false flag dupes. <<
I don't agree; who's to say they didn't assist with the planting of the bombs during the weeks leading up to 9/11, or that they did not guide and train the patsy hijackers? You? I can imagine other possible scenarios where such people played a role in the operational aspect of 9/11 prior to the moments of the plane impacts.
I agree with you that the aired statement about "documenting the event" is not very meaningful. Now don't you agree that there is nothing about any of this that precludes their earlier participation in the operation? And given some of the facts it may have been likely?
i second Tahooey's comment
Since they didn't arrive and get on the truck until 911 had begun,
what were they doing in the 2 months before they got on the truck? presumably working as "movers" for Urban Moving Systems owned by Dominick Suter, a Mossad front company. hmmm...
but was still in operation, and since 911 definitely was a well-planned operation carried out by experts,
experts planned it and designed it--someone had to actually move stuff around and into place... someone like moving men perhaps?
we may safely assume that the only possible role such people could have been playing, if any at all, would have been as false flag dupes.
you may safely assume whatever you want, and you'd most likely end up being wrong. Again, let's run down a few facts:
1) WTC privatized by Port Authority under leadership of Zionist Lewis Eisenberg
2) WTC leased in said privatization to Zionist Lawrence Silverstein, who is friendly with Sharon and Netanyahu
3) All liability cases relating to 9/11 grouped and assigned to Zionist Judge Alvin Hellerstein
4) Zionists reported celebrating the burning of the towers subsequently arrested, blame Palestinians for 9/11, are found to be agents working for Mossad front company whose owner flees the country (to Israel)
5) Arrested Zionist agents ultimately released thanks to diplomatic pressure and the efforts of Zionist Michael Chertoff, then a top Justice department official.
Now, without even going into precedents like the attack on the USS LIberty, the bombing of the King David Hotel, or the presence of Israeli agents in Oklahoma City in the days before the bombing of the Murrah building. Without looking into the history of Lawrence Silverstein's dealings with Israel. Without going into the by now commonplace occurence of Israeli agents being caught spying on the American government.
Without even considering any of those things, we have what amounts to a very strong prima facie case that Zionists were very much involved in if not altogether behind the attacks of 9/11. Anyone can see this is so. And yet all attention is diverted from this fact and levelled instead against any number of arab and/or muslim countries with the most flimsy and insubstantial connections to the attacks, many having since been revealed to be blatantly falsified.
Hmm.
Hmmmmm.
Yeah, I think we know the score.
I Second Tahooey’s and Gretavo’s Excellent Comments
And if your seconds can’t reach me, go right to my thirds...
Don’t forget we had four, multi-team Israeli-driven moving vans stopped, at night, one outside a U.S. military base, by various state police units across the U.S. just after 9/11/01; all vans tested by the FBI, or state police, including the NJ plated vans driven by Sivan and the dance crew on the day of 9/11, came up positive for explosives residue, or were actually found carrying RDX, and other military-grade explosives (and always with the box-cutters); all suspects were quietly shipped off to Israel on “immigration†charges by the Israeli head of U.S. DHS, Michael Chertoff, in early 2002, although he had not been unanimously awarded the head Gestapo position by the U.S. Congress at that time. He was, in early 2002, still acting as AG John Ashcroft’s Mossad monitor.
And another important Israeli operational connection that everyone in the “truth movement†always seems to overlook is the Menachem Atzmon/Ezra Harel-owned ICTS (International Consultants on Targeted Security) connect, btw, headquartered in the UK at Tavistock Square (see 7/7/05 London Bus bombings). ICTS-owned Huntleigh USA handled security for Boston’s Logan and Newark International airports, as well as United and American Airlines. That’s three out of four “hijacked†planes right there. When you say “inside job†it is important to pay attention to whom is running “site-security†at key facilities involved in the operation – airport, airline, as well as building security. This is just basic detective work. Everyone in the truth movement it seems is directed or encouraged to talk about the Bush-connected Stratasec/Securacom building and airport/airline connections, but not ICTS or the Lewis Eisenberg-run NY-NJ Port Authority connections to 9/11, now why would that be? The general strategy seems to be “try to blame it on the Arabs, any Arabs, if that fails, blame it on Bush (and the crazy Arab hijackers), but fer goshdarn sakes keep them researchers off of the ol’ Israel trail, because if the Americans found out the whole truth about 9/11 and the rest of it, well you know.
And another Israeli connection that doesn’t get a lot of airtime on “mainstream†9/11 truth sites is the PNAC, Neo-Con, Pentagon Comptroller, Dov Zakheim’s CEO connection to a company in nearby Virginia called System Planning Corporation, or SPC, which just happens to make a military grade, programmable, multi-plane remote control system called the Flight Termination System, or FTS. The term “flight termination†refers to the system’s ability to arrest flight control from the pilot of any aircraft (including helicopters) which has a properly installed FTS control module installed in the aircraft (and if an Israeli-owned security company is controlling the airport security and the security of the only two airlines involved in the 9/11 attacks, I wonder who might have had the fortuitous opportunity to install such equipment in those commercial aircraft?). And which airport/airline security companies does Zionist Judge Alvin Hellerstein work for? This is just basic connect-the-dots detective work, the conclusions of which seem to fall under the category of “don’t go there†taboo discussion. And I wonder why that is? Yes, the planes were “hijacked,†but by aeronautical remote-control technology being operated by, well, let’s just say, not by Arabs.
it bears repetition...
We're at the point I think where we're interested in meme survival and propagation, and everyone knows that the key to that is the same as the key to memorization, the easy three step process of:
1) repeat
2) repeat
3) repeat steps 1) and 2) repeatedly
SO...
ICTS = International Consultants on Targeted Security = Huntleigh USA =Security at Logan and Newark airports and United and American Airlines
SPC = System Planning Corporation = FTS = Flight Termination System = Dov Zakheim = Missing Pentagon Trillions
Maybe these would be some good things to do some research on, compare notes, etc.?
And, wasn't it none other than
Michael Chertoff who bailed them out? probably with a little scolding for getting caught and then sent them packing...
> Now don't you agree that
> Now don't you agree that there is nothing about any of this that precludes their earlier participation in the operation?
If you mean that in the very vague sense that anything is theoretically possible, sure. It's certainly that some real Arab hijackers may have been involved with the whole thing too. The point is that whatever else may have occurred elsewhere the scenario that we have of these fellows being picked up doesn't imply much one way or another. The same thing is true with the whole bit alleging that the Mossad was tracking hijackers. That question is covered on this page:
http://911myths.com/html/israeli_art_student_spies.html
This site is definitely worth going over thoroughly,
http://911myths.com/index.html
not because it decisively answers all questions (it doesn't and the site author doesn't claim to accomplish such), but as a summary of some of the more frequently repeated flaws in the so-called "911-truth" movement. There is a rather broad tendency in this wanna-be troother movement for people to repeat silly rumors and take offense at simple basic corrections. I also doubt that very little of this has much to do with CoIntelPro agents, though undoubtedly there are some.
Just to flush one very basic question about 911, often obfusacted in discussions, but may perhaps be answerable in the next few years:
Who really gained more, Iran or Israel?
That question is impossible to answer right off the bat, but either way one of these states made a very dumb error and the other made a smart move. But which one?
Iran, let's be clear, has supported the US invasion of Iraq from beginning to end. If it really turns out to be the case that Bush or Clinton invade Iran within a few years as a follow-up to the invasion of Iraq, then Iran's cooperation with the attack on Iraq will appear very self-destructive indeed. On the other hand, Benjamin Netanyahu will appear as a mastermind in supporting the formulation of "A Clean Break" strategy.
But is that really going to occur? and if it does not, if there is no invasion of Iran in the next few years, and if Iranian Islamic influence continues to grow without any rollback effort from the White House, should this be ascribed to a success of the anti-war movement in preventing an invasion of Iran? or should it be taken as a sign that, just as Papa Bush worked with Iran behind the scenes during the 1980 election, Baby Bush was doing the same all along?
Honestly, I don't know the answers to the questions. But I doubt that anyone else posting on the net in 911-troother forums does either. A case for the last point of view listed is given at this site:
http://emperors-clothes.com/iraq-iran.htm
The site author is a bit too pro-Zionist for me to just accept everything which he says off the cuff, but he does make some rational points which deserve a more careful consideration than has been given by people whose ideologies lean in the other direction around Zionism. A basic fact which has to be noted about the Mideast is that Iranian Islamic influence has grown since the occupation of Iraq, so much so that nothing less than a full invasion of Iran in the next, say, 5 years, will allow us to really say that the Iraq invasion was part of a masterplan by Netanyahu's people. If such doesn't occur then we must at least say that any role played by Netanyahu et al in encouraging the invasion of Iraq was a gross ideological blunder (such things do happen in politics). But was it just that? or was the intent from the beginning to strengthen Islam as a way of corroding Russia, as the author of the last site above asserts? I'll continue to withhold judgment for a while.
pffpfpfpfpfpfp!!!!!
Gretavo a demagogue - wouldn't have him any other way!
he don't need to learn nutn'....
this is too funny