Loose Nuke (Erik Larson) and Rest of True Faction Clique Launch LIHOP Endgame

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"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

-Sherlock Holmes, Legendary Consulting Detective

 

That said, the answer isn't necessarily voice-morphing.  Everyone who took money from the victim compensation fund had a motive to participate in the lie.  Guess what?  People lie about all kinds of things.  Especially when you promise them a million bucks.  LIHOPpers use the victims and their families (both the genuine ones and the fake ones, between whom they do not distinguish) as human shields.  It is clear that the True Faction clique is disproportionately represented in the following 911blogger thread.  Now why would that be, hm?  Interesting that they waited until now that DRG's health has been in decline to launch this attack on him.  Did they not feel this way, say, 2 years ago or more? I call this the LIHOP Endgame because I believe that the fake truthers hope to use the occasion of the tenth anniversary to put a nail in the coffin of the real truth movement. They're not going to succeed!

 

 

Critique of David Ray Griffin’s 9/11 Fake Calls Theory by Erik Larson

Beginning with his book New Pearl Harbor (2004) David Ray Griffin raised questions concerning the veracity of reports of phone calls from the 9/11 hijacked airliners, specifically, Ted Olson’s account. Since at least 2006, he has promoted a theory that the 9/11 plane passenger phone calls were faked, and has speculated this was done with ‘voice-morphing’ technology. He’s done this in many different articles, in books, in speaking appearances, in interviews on radio and television, and in a debate with Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone magazine. In his 1/12/10 essay, Phone Calls from the 9/11 Airliners: Response to Questions Evoked by My Fifth Estate Interview, David Ray Griffin gives the most comprehensive overview of this theory to date, as well as a response to critics, which include people who support a new 9/11 investigation. A Professor Emeritus and skilled rhetorician, Griffin makes a case that is seemingly compelling. However, as I show in this essay, there is no actual evidence the phone calls were faked, while there is a substantial body of evidence demonstrating the calls were not only possible, but did happen. There are many credible reasons to doubt the official 9/11 story and support a full investigation, but the cause of compelling a new 9/11 investigation is undermined by the promotion of theories that are flawed, and not based on hard evidence. In addition, the claim that the phone calls were faked is obviously offensive to those family members who spoke with passengers before they died, and it has the potential to drive a wedge between truth and justice activists and potential allies among the family members, many of whom support a full investigation.

Besides these shortcomings, Griffin himself pointed out in 2008 that promoting theories is not only unnecessary, but can work to the advantage of ‘debunkers’:

I made a big point of not developing such a theory, and even encouraging members of the movement not to do this ... No, you don't have to have a theory. When you develop a theory, that's what the debunkers love, they want to say, that's nonsense and take attention away from all the evidence we have marshaled to show the official story is false.

Certainly, ‘debunker’ websites such as 9/11 Myths have easily exposed flaws in the voice morphing theory: For instance, though the technology existed at the time, the inventor, George Papcun, has commented that voice-morphing a conversation in near real time would be more complex than fabricating a simple recorded statement, and would require an extensive recording as a sample. It would be even more difficult to fool the subject’s family members, who, in addition to being familiar with the person’s voice, would be familiar with their unique communication style and intimate details of their lives. One victim, Linda Gronlund, even left the combination to her safe on her sister’s voice mail. None of the family members who spoke with the passengers, or heard the messages they left, had any doubts it was their loved ones who called. Finally, some of those who made calls hadn’t booked their flights until the day before 9/11, meaning it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, to get an adequate voice sample, even assuming the perpetrators could tap anyone’s phone at anytime: Jeremy Glick, Mark Bingham, Honor Elizabeth Wainio and possibly Ed Felt. Some, including Griffin in previous essays, have suggested that Mark Bingham’s use of his full name when speaking to his mother is suspicious. First, it would be very unlikely that persons faking phone calls would introduce an element that would be a red flag to their family and outside observers. Second, Bingham’s mother (who has a different last name: Hoglan) has said that he did this on occasion; is it realistic to think voice-morphing perps learned this idiosyncrasy at the last minute and exploited it, let alone base accusations on it?

In his Response to Questions essay, Griffin doesn’t use the term voice morphing, and makes one brief claim related to this particular theory: “… what alternative is there except to conclude that someone fabricated at least one, and probably both, of these calls, a device that, besides replicating the impersonated persons’ voices, also caused their cell phone numbers to appear?” Instead, throughout the essay, he focuses on making a case that the reports of cell phone calls were accurate, that cell phone calls from the 9/11 planes weren’t possible and, therefore, were faked, and that this implies the air phone calls were also faked. However, this is still a theory, and one that isn’t supported by evidence, as I will show. In addition, this theory is just as offensive to the victims’ family members as the voice morphing theory, as it means that either the phone calls were faked by voice morphing, or that passengers - and/or their family members - participated in a deception.

In the introduction to his Response to Questions essay, Griffin explains it was prompted by discussion following a 911Blogger post of a Youtube clip from his appearance on the CBC program Fifth Estate, and that he is addressing "the most important" "claims contradicting [his] position":

1. “The FBI has not admitted that cell phone calls from high-altitude airliners on 9/11 were impossible.”

2. “There is no evidence that some of the reported 9/11 phone calls were faked.”

3. “American Airlines’ [AAL] Boeing 757s, and hence its Flight 77, had onboard phones.”

4. “The FBI’s report on phone calls from the 9/11 airliners did not undermine Ted Olson’s report about receiving phone calls from his wife.”

I’ve followed the same outline in this examination of Griffin’s essay, his fake calls theory in general, and related evidence. The 911Blogger post of Griffin’s CBC interview is here: David Ray Griffin on the 9/11 Cell Phone Calls: Exclusive CBC Interview. In his essay, Griffin also quotes from and responds to an essay written by jimd3100 in response to the CBC interview, ‘Fake’ Phone Calls? What The Evidence Shows.

1. “The FBI has not admitted that cell phone calls from high-altitude airliners on 9/11 were impossible.”

In the introduction to Part 1 of his essay, Griffin acknowledges, "It is true that the FBI has never explicitly stated that such calls are impossible, or at least too improbable to affirm." However, he goes on to argue that, as the FBI took the public position at the Moussaoui trial that, “13 of the terrified passengers and crew members made 35 air phone calls and two cell phone calls,” that it was the FBI's implicit position cell phone calls were not possible from the 9/11 flights. This does not logically follow; it may be the FBI found there were 35 air phone and two cell phone calls. Also, the FBI’s statement reveals nothing about FBI’s position on the ability to make cell phone calls from planes on September 11, 2001.

In a subsection of Part 1 titled, “The FBI’s Revised Public Position,” Griffin alleges that at one time the FBI took the position that a greater number of cell phone calls had been made, and that this changed. Griffin states, “Previously, the FBI had supported the idea – at least by not contradicting press reports spreading it – that there were over ten cell phone calls from Flight 93.” But, the FBI’s failure to state a public position or correct press reports is not the same as the FBI having a public position on an issue. The FBI is not in the business of correcting misinformation circulated by the media or general public, and commonly refuses to comment publicly on investigations in progress. If the FBI has a “public position” on an issue, it is made known through a spokesperson, their website, and/or at a trial or some other legal proceeding.

2. “There is no evidence that some of the reported 9/11 phone calls were faked.”

In this section Griffin does not present evidence of faked calls. Instead, he cites a number of media reports and witness statements to the FBI regarding passengers and crew using cell phones, and argues, based on other reports, that cell phone calls from planes were impossible in 2001. From this, he argues the reported calls from the flights must have been faked, and the FBI and 9/11 Commission have covered this up. However, some of the reports of cell phones being used are contradicted by reports of air phones being used, as well as call records that show air phones being used. There’s also evidence that cell phone calls from planes were possible before 2001. In addition, Griffin doesn’t consider the possibility that cell phone repeaters could have been placed on the 9/11 flights.

In Part 1 of his Response to Questions essay, Griffin listed five people on United Airlines (UAL) 93, two on UAL 175, one on American Airlines (AAL) 11 and one on AAL 77 who had made “approximately 15 … phone calls [which] were described at the time as cell phone calls.” According to this UAL call record (pp. 25-26), between UAL 175 and UAL 93, at least 18 different people made a total of 46 different air phone calls, including all seven of the UAL passengers for whom Griffin cites media reports of cell phone calls (additional GTE records here). (Disclosure: the preceding 9/11 Commission records and the others cited in this essay, as well as the ones cited by Griffin in his Response to Questions essay, were scanned at the National Archives and uploaded to Scribd.com/911DocumentArchiveby me. The entire set can be downloaded for free from 911DataSets.org). For some reason, two UAL 93 cell phone calls - the ones made by CeeCee Lyles and Ed Felt at 9:58 am - are also listed on the a UAL call record (p. 25). Most likely, these were added later, either by UAL or FBI personnel, probably as an aid in sorting out the phone call information; explanatory notes in underlined type were added to the Claircom/AT&T records for American Airlines (AAL) (pp. 2-24).

Griffin acknowledges that, "People do, of course, make mistakes, especially in stressful situations. They may misunderstand, or misremember, what they were told." He then asks, "But is it plausible that so many people would have made the same mistake, wrongly thinking that they had been told by the people calling them that they were using cell phones?" In some cases, the person called may simply have assumed the person was talking to them on a cell phone, or just didn’t consider the distinction between an air phone and a cell phone to be significant. Or, as Griffin said, some may have misunderstood or misremembered what the caller told them.

It may also be that some of the media reports were simply wrong. In addition to sources sometimes being incorrect, reporters are human and have made mistakes - media have reported misinformation as fact on many occasions. Jeremy Glick and Honor Elizabeth Wanio are two people for whom Griffin cites media reports of them making calls on cell phones. However, these reports are contradicted by this10/28/01 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article that has them using Airfones:

Jeremy Glick picked up a GTE Airfone just before 9:30 a.m. and called his in-laws in the Catskills. … Lauren Catuzzi Grandcolas, 38, phoned her husband Jack in San Rafael, Calif … Then she passed the Airfone to the woman seated next to her. “Now you call your people,” Grandcolas told her. Honor Elizabeth Wainio, 27, took the phone from Grandcolas and dialed her stepmother, Esther Heymann, in Baltimore.

“Cell Phone Numbers Recognized on Caller ID”

Three of the calls on the UAL call record (pp. 25-26) are from Tom Burnett. Per author Jere Longman, who interviewed Tom’s wife Deena Burnett in 2002, Deena took notes, and wrote down the time of the first call as 6:27 am (PST); 9:27 am (EST). According to a9/11/01 FBI 302 interview of Deena (pp. 10-11), “Starting at approximately 6:30 a.m. (PST) BURNETT received a series of three to five cellular phone calls from her husband, THOMAS EDWARD BURNETT, JR”. The 302 recounts pieces of conversations from four calls. Though the 302 refers to all of these calls as cell phone calls, it is not clear from this 302 if Deena recognized Tom’s cell phone on Caller ID in more than one of the calls; caller ID is only referenced in the context of the third call received; “Approximately five minutes later she received another cell phone call from her husband. BURNETT was able to determine that her husband was using his own cellular telephone because the caller identification showed his number, (925) 980-3360. Only one of the calls did not show on the caller identification as she was on the line with another call.”

The 9/11 Commission’s 4/26/04 interview with Deena says, “Call #1: … She also thinks this was the one call he placed to her from his cell phone, because she recognized the number on the caller ID.” Two and a half years after 9/11, Deena Burnett was still sure she’d seen Tom’s cell phone number on her caller ID, but that only one call was from his cell phone, and it was the first call. The 9/11 Commission interview also says, “The call Burnett made from the cell phone did not show up on the cell phone bill, neither did the one he placed to his secretary before take-off. Burnett spoke with his friend Charles from England before take-off. He mentioned the flight was delayed but did not give a reason.”

The first two calls on the UAL call record (pp. 25-26) list the time zone as “INT” and the times are 8:30:32 am (Tom Burnett: 28 seconds duration) and 8:32:39 am (Flight Attendant); the other calls all list “ET” as the time zone, and fit EST time frames for the reported events. I was unable to determine the meaning or purpose of “INT” as a time zone signifier. At the Moussaoui trial, Tom Burnett’s first call is listed as occurring at 9:30:32 am for 28 seconds, matching the first call except for the time, unless the INT time zone is one hour ahead of EST. The next calls from Tom Burnett on the UAL and Moussaoui trial records are at 9:37:53 am, and the last is at 9:44:23 am; a total of three air phone calls from Tom Burnett are listed.

Cell phone calls from planes were possible on 9/11; would the FBI lie, and why?

Various FBI agents, supervisors and policy makers have been involved in crimes, corruption and cover ups during the FBI’s history. And, the FBI has a great deal to answer for regarding 9/11 and many other events, including their handling of the investigation into the2001 Anthrax attacks. FBI statements and records should not be accepted at face value, but this doesn’t mean that any particular FBI statement or record is false. Not all FBI agents, supervisors and policy makers are dishonest or disloyal to the US. For instance, FBI whistleblowers Sibel EdmondsColeen RowleyRobert WrightJohn Cole and others have demonstrated integrity and courage by their efforts within the system to address corruption, and finally by going public after being ignored, obstructed and intimidated by people with greater authority.

It may be that cell phones were used in more than the two cases cited by the FBI: CeeCee Lyles and Ed Felt. Regarding Deena Burnett’s account, Griffin says in his Response to Questions essay,

If [Tom Burnett] had actually called from an onboard phone, as the FBI now says, how could his home phone’s Caller ID have possibly indicated that the calls came from his cell phone? Some people reject as “unwarranted speculation” the suggestion that this shows that the calls were faked. But until someone comes up with an alternative explanation, this is the only hypothesis that accounts for the facts.

There is another hypothesis that accounts for the facts, which is that cell phones were used. First, the claim that cell phone calls from planes were impossible is contradicted by evidence. In making his case that cell phone calls weren’t possible, Griffin cites a study by A. K. Dewdney. This study is not relevant to the 9/11 flights, as it was done in Canada, and no evidence was provided that conditions were similar, such as proximity to cell phone towers or power/quality of transmission equipment. Griffin also says that, "[cell phone] calls would become possible … on commercial flights in March 2008." In support of this statement, he cites journalist Alan Cabal’s reporting on ‘picocell’ technology, including Cabal’s contention that, “Before this new ‘Pico cell,’ it was nigh on impossible to make a call from a passenger aircraft in flight. Connection is impossible at altitudes over 8000 feet or speeds in excess of 230 mph.” However, myriad credible sources indicate cell phone calls from airplanes were possible prior to 2001; see this collection of reports, studies and anecdotal evidence from media reports compiled by 9/11 Myths, and this collection of reports compiled by jimd3100.

Second, self-powered cell phone repeaters may have been placed on board the planes to ensure that calls would reliably connect. Arepeater is "sufficiently powerful to establish reliable connections with ground stations for several minutes at a time, and forwards all the communications between the cell phones aboard the plane and ground stations." Cell phone calls from planes were possible before 2001, but it’s obvious that reception quality and the ability to connect and maintain a quality connection would decrease at higher altitudes and speeds. Some of the reported cell phone calls did take place at lower altitudes, but other reported calls, including Tom Burnett’s, were at higher altitudes.

It could easily have been anticipated by insiders arranging for planes to be successfully hijacked and hit their targets on 9/11, that passengers, once aware of the hijackings, would attempt to use their cell phones and report hijackings by Middle-Eastern-looking men. It would have been obvious that news reports of these calls would be emotionally-charged, and could be used to convince the public that Islamic radicals were responsible for 9/11, as well as channel the public’s fear and anger into support for a ‘war on terror’. Certainly, the calls were used in exactly this way. If repeaters were involved (no direct evidence has surfaced), this would create a different set of problems for the official 9/11 conspiracy theory, and the need to cover this up could explain why the FBI has denied that certain calls were made by cell phone.

“[David Ray Griffin’s] Amazing Treatment of Amy Sweeney’s Calls”

The title of this subsection is an ironic rephrasing of the related subtitle in Griffin’s Response to Questions essay. According to Griffin, “What appears to be the FBI’s most elaborate effort to change a story occurred in relation to the phone calls reportedly made by flight attendant Amy Sweeney from American Flight 11. As we saw earlier, an FBI affidavit, dated September 11, said that AA employee Michael Woodward, who reportedly talked to Sweeney for 12 minutes, said she had been using ‘a cellular telephone.’” This is ironic because the appearance of an “elaborate effort” by the FBI to “change a story” is created by Griffin’s omissions, errors and misinterpretations of the records he cites. Griffin says:

Strangely, the summary of an FBI interview with AA Vice President for Flight Services Jane Allen, who reported that she had conducted a “flight service system conference call” involving Woodward the day after the 9/11 attacks, indicated that she said: “According to Woodward, Sweeny’s [sic] call came from either a cell telephone or an airphone on the aircraft.” Surely, however, Lechner’s affidavit, according to which Woodward said simply that Sweeney used a “cellular telephone,” must be considered more authoritative than this indirect quotation of Jane Allen, for four reasons: First, Lechner would have been trained to be precise about such matters when writing affidavits, whereas Allen’s focus during the conference call would have been on flight services; second, Lechner had a one-on-one interview with Woodward, whereas Allen talked to him during a conference call involving other people; third, Lechner’s interview took place on 9/11 itself, whereas Allen’s conference call occurred the following day; and fourth, Lechner received his information directly from Woodward himself, whereas the FBI summary was reporting a second-hand statement of what Woodward had said. The FBI’s summary of Allen’s summary of Woodward’s statement provides, therefore, no reason to question FBI Special Agent James Lechner’s affidavit, according to which Woodward said that Amy Sweeney had been “using a cellular telephone.”

FBI Special Agent (SA) James K. Lechner’s affidavit was filed 9/12/01 in a federal court in Maine in order to obtain a search warrant in connection with the 9/11 investigation. Regarding Griffin’s first point, one may presume FBI agents are trained to be precise. However, FBI agents are human and make mistakes (FBI 302s frequently have typos, and come with the disclaimer, “This document contains neither recommendations nor conclusions of the FBI”). Mistakes may increase under pressure, or when distinctions and meanings are misunderstood or considered trivial, as the cell phone/air phone distinction may have seemed in the case of this affidavit, which was citing the Woodward/Sweeney conversation as evidence, and wasn’t related to an investigation of that conversation (or it’s alleged ‘impossibility’). And, given the bigger picture of determining who was responsible for the worst attack on the US since Pearl Harbor, the cell phone/air phone distinction may not have registered with Lechner at all.

In any case, there’s no evidence that Lechner personally interviewed Michael Woodward, which is the basis for Griffin’s second, third and fourth reasons to prefer Lechner’s affidavit over Jane Allen’s account. The facts outlined in the affidavit were sworn to by Lechner, but the context of the statement referencing the interview implies he didn’t interview Woodward: “On September 11, 2001, FBI agents interviewed … [Woodward].” Lechner could only be as accurate was whatever information he was given by other parties, and any mistake may not have been made by him.

Indeed, a search of the 9/11 Commission’s records at Scribd.com/911DocumentArchive – the same records Griffin used as sources in his Response to Questions essay – turns up only one FBI interview with Woodward on 9/11/01. This was conducted by FBI SA Craig Ring on 9/11/01 at 2pm (p. 86), and he says, “Woodward is the flight service manager for AA. He talked to flight attendant Amy Sweeney via air phone after flight 11 was hijacked (emphasis added).” Unless the Woodward interview was tape recorded, this FBI 302 is the primary source record; Lechner’s affidavit is at best secondary. For whatever reason, Griffin did not cite this 302 in his essay.

Woodward was also interviewed on 9/11/01 at 10:30 am by Massachusetts State Trooper James Masterson (p. 89), who stated that Woodward had “'received a phone call from Flight Attendant Sweeney aboard Flight 11,” that it was hijacked by three men with a bomb, and that three people had been stabbed or cut and one was dying. Masterson doesn’t note whether it was an air or cell phone.

Woodward was also interviewed by the FBI on 9/12, 13 and 14. The 9/12 and 9/14 interviews say nothing about cell v. air phone, but the9/13 FBI 302 (p. 1) states, “(WOODWARD was unsure whether SWEENEY was on the on-board phones or a cellular telephone).” Griffin didn’t cite this interview, either, even though he cited the 9/12 interview (in the same .pdf file as the 9/13 interview) as the source for this quote: “Woodward took notes while he was talking to Sweeney which he signed and dated and gave to the interviewing Agent.”Woodward’s 9/11/01 notes can be viewed here (pp. 2-3); there’s no mention in his notes of whether it was an air or cell phone. Rather, he made notes about things like hijackers, attendants, passengers, a bomb, a stabbing, a slashed throat, bleeding, and the rapid descent of the plane.

The flight service system conference call involving Jane Allen and Michael Woodward happened on 9/11/01, not “the day after the 9/11 attacks,” as Griffin says. Also, the FBI interviewed Allen ON 9/11/01. The FBI 302, dated 9/11/01, (pp. 25-26) says, “On 09/11/2001, MS. ALLEN conducted a flight service system conference call.” The dates of the dictation and transcription are 9/12/01; perhaps this is the source of Griffin’s error in this case, though these are clearly marked, and the date of the 302 is clearly 9/11/01. Griffin is correct that the 302 records that, per Allen, “According to Woodward, Sweeny’s [sic] call came from either a cell telephone or an airphone on the aircraft.” Also, it seems unlikely that on a day when two AAL planes had been hijacked and crashed into buildings, that Allen, an AAL VP, would be focused on “flight services,” as Griffin surmises. Rather, it seems she would have been focused on finding out the facts related to events that constituted potentially very large liabilities for AAL.

It is curious that Lechner’s 9/11/01 affidavit says “cell phone” when the actual 9/11/01 Woodward interview record says “air phone.” It’s also curious because, according to Woodward himself in his 9/13/01 interview, and according to Allen in her 9/11/01 interview, Woodward was unsure if Sweeney was calling from a cell or air phone. However, when speaking to Ring, Woodward may have assumed it was an air phone, then realized later he didn’t know for sure, as in the heat of the moment, focused on the hijacking/bomb/stabbing of three people, etc., Sweeney didn’t think to remark on that, and he didn’t ask.

Additional evidence that Sweeney called Woodward from an air phone is the AT&T/Claircom call record for AAL 11 (pp. 6, 9-10), which lists three connected calls from 904-555-0004 to a number at Boston Logan airport (redacted). The first is at 6:25:20 (8:25:20 am EST) for 107 seconds, the second at 6:29:25 (8:29:25 am EST) for 43 seconds, and the third at 6:32:39 (8:32:39 am EST) for 793 seconds (13” 13’). Griffin doesn’t cite these records, though he cited many other records posted at Scribd.com/911DocumentArchive.

In his Response to Questions essay, Griffin does not directly dispute the air phone call made by AAL 11 Flight Attendant Betty Ong. This also appears in the AT&T/Claircom call record (p. 7): at 6:18:47 (8:18:47 am EST) there’s a call from 904-555-0004 to American Airlines reservations for 1620 seconds (27”).

“Amazing Treatment,” cont.: the AAL tapes produced in 2004

Griffin says the AAL tapes produced in 2004 are the source of the claim that Sweeney had used an air phone, but, regardless of the fact that Woodward had said it may have been an air phone, and an air phone is much more likely than a cell phone to sustain a call for 12 minutes, the FBI would have learned with relative certainty that an air phone had been used once they got the AT&T/Claircom call record for AAL 11 (pp. 2-10). The fax date of these records, which include the AAL 77 calls, is 9/13/01.

Griffin lists six reasons to believe the AAL tape of the conversation involving Sam Howland and Nancy Wyatt (as Michael Woodward talked to Amy Sweeney) is faked (see transcript pp. 34-41). The first two reasons have to do with the existence of the tape being unknown to certain people and the public until some 2 ½ years after 9/11. However, if the FBI and AAL did not perceive a need to tell people - even Assistant US Attorney David Novak - they would not do so. It is surprising Novak was unaware, given that he was working on the Moussaoui trial. However, the failure to inform Novak, and/or the failure of Novak to learn of the tape, may only be evidence of unnecessarily excessive secrecy (something the Bush Administration was well known for), bureaucracy and/or incompetence. And, as I pointed out in Section 1, the FBI commonly does not comment on investigations in progress. It may also be there was an attempt, eventually unsuccessful, to suppress this evidence. AAL, as it was being sued by a large number of people, would have no incentive to widely share any information about what the company and its personnel knew and did or didn’t do on 9/11; in fact, AAL personnel were instructed to not discuss anything with the media.

The transcript shows AAL managers were soliciting and obtaining agreements to keep the news of the hijackings quiet (pp. 10, 23, 39).Griffin, in Note 62, said this “seems to be simply one of the most transparently phony parts of this made-up story,” because AAL officials wouldn’t have “thought they could keep [a hijacking] among themselves.” This is Griffin’s opinion, and has no basis in the evidence. It seems at least as plausible, if not more, that this indicates they realized the seriousness and sensitivity of the matter, and wanted to keep rumors and panic from spreading while they worked to get the situation under control. It could also mean they felt it was important to manage perceptions regarding AAL’s responsibility; clearly, those in management would have recognized the hijacking was a major liability issue for AAL. The 2004 news of this seeming ‘cover up’ (cited by Griffin) contributed to negative perceptions about AAL, and infuriated family members, some of whom were suing AAL. Prior to the tape’s release, it would have been obvious to AAL management that it could make AAL look bad, thus there would be no incentive for AAL to fabricate these statements, and no incentive for the government to do so either, as it had bailed out the airlines and was working to shield them from liability.

Regarding the third reason, Griffin quotes a 9/20/01 LA Times article which actually undermines (not supports) his contention that the tape was fabricated later, and that the FBI didn’t know about the tape at the time:

FBI officials in Dallas [Fort Worth], where American Airlines is based, were able, on the day of the terrorist attacks, to piece together a partial transcript and an account of the phone call. American Airlines officials said such calls are not typically recorded, suggesting that the FBI may have reconstructed the conversation from interviews.

Griffin asks, “Why would FBI officials have needed to ‘piece together a partial transcript’ if officials at AA headquarters had a recording of Wyatt’s virtually verbatim account of Woodward’s virtually word-for-word account of what Sweeney had said?” Transcript of the Howland - Wyatt – Woodward – Sweeney tape (pp. 34-41). (This file also contains taped conversations between a number of other people, which shows that, while calls may not be “typically recorded,” they were in that location on 9/11/01, perhaps because it was clear the situation was a major emergency, and might need to be reconstructed later). As Wyatt had only relayed the last four minutes of the Sweeney-Woodward conversation, this would be a ‘partial transcript’, which, along with their interviews of those involved, could have been used to largely reconstruct the whole conversation.

Griffin: “Fourth, there is no indication that Michael Woodward mentioned the creation of this recording when he was interviewed by FBI agent James Lechner on 9/11.” As I pointed out earlier in this essay, there’s no evidence Lechner interviewed Woodward on 9/11, and he probably didn’t. There’s also no evidence Woodward was aware Wyatt’s call to Howland was recorded.

Griffin: “Fifth, if Woodward had repeated to Nancy Wyatt Sweeney’s statement that she had used ‘an AirFone card, given to her by another flight attendant,’ he surely would not have told Lechner, only a few hours later, that she had been ‘using a cellular telephone.’” As I already pointed out, the 302 of FBI SA Craig Ring’s 9/11/01 interview records that Woodward said Sweeney was on an air phone. There’s no evidence Woodward knew she had used “an AirFone card, given to her by another flight attendant.” The AT&T/Claircom call records for AAL 11 (pp. 6, 9-10) are probably the source of the information that “Sara [Low] had given Ms. Sweeney her father [Mike Low]'s calling card”; in the card # field is a phone number for Gary M Low, and the card type is NPT. There’s nothing about an AirFone card being used in the transcript of the Wyatt-Howland call (pp. 34-41), or in any of the Woodward interviews.

For the sixth and final reason to believe the tape is a fraud, Griffin asserts the “new story is even internally inconsistent,” because, as “Nancy Wyatt did not start relaying the call to American headquarters in Texas until 8:40 AM,” this could not have “resulted in a virtually verbatim transcript of the entire Sweeney-Woodward call.” However, there’s no evidence AAL or the FBI claimed there was a transcript of the “entire” call.

3. “American Airlines’ Boeing 757s, and hence its Flight 77, had onboard phones.”

In part 3 of his Response to Questions essay, Griffin discusses his “evolving position on whether Flight 77 had onboard phones.” He had retracted certain statements on 5/7/07 (while arguing that other evidence supported the fake calls theory), and subsequentlyretracted his retraction on 6/26/07 (co-authored with Rob Balsamo of Pilots for 9/11 Truth (PFT)). Griffin’s position in his Response to Questions essay is that AAL 77 did not have working air phones on September 11, 2001. In support of this, he cites four pieces of evidence:

A. Chad Kinder, AAL Customer Service

The first piece of evidence is an exchange between forum user The Paradroid and AAL Customer Service Representative (CSR) Chad Kinder. Paradroid asks, “Hello, on your website . . . there is mentioned that there are no seatback satellite phones on a Boeing 757. Is that info correct? Were there any such seatback satellite phones on any Boeing 757 before or on September 11, 2001 and if so, when were these phones ripped out?” Kinder responds, “That is correct; we do not have phones on our Boeing 757. The passengers on flight 77 used their own personal cellular phones to make out calls during the terrorist attack.”

Kinder doesn’t address the question about whether AAL 757’s had seatback phones on 9/11, or when they were removed. He says, "we do not have phones …" (present tense), and then says the 9/11 passengers used their cell phones. It may be that Kinder gave a quick reply he believed was correct based on his personal knowledge, and didn't bother to check whether or not AAL 757s had seatback phones on 9/11, let alone working ones; certainly, his present tense statement, “we do not have,” doesn't logically indicate AAL 757’s didn’t have them on 9/11/01. However, it does appear Kinder is inferring that was the case, hence his statement that passengers used their cell phones on 9/11.

Given the present tense phrasing of Kinder’s response, however, it cannot be assumed this is evidence that Flight 77 didn’t have working air phones on 9/11. Curiously, Kinder’s present tense phrasing doesn’t bother Griffin, even though he said in his 6/26/07 retraction of his5/7/07 retraction, that the present tense phrasing of AAL’s 2004 communications with Henshall and Morgan was one of the reasons he concluded he was in error in his book Debunking 9/11 Debunking, leading to his 5/7/07 retraction: “… the realization that the letters from AA in 2004 were couched entirely in the present tense, DRG concluded that the claim that AA 77 had not had onboard phones was probably an error.”

The job of a CSR like Chad Kinder is to provide support to many dozens or even hundreds of customers per day; most issues a CSR deals with are routine questions related to AAL’s current services and schedules, not questions about past events and discontinued services. According to Rob Balsamo’s 5/31/07 follow up interview with Kinder, Kinder could not recall having written the 2006 email as he writes “so many,” but said, “That sounds like an accurate statement." Apparently, Balsamo did not clarify with Kinder whether or not AAL 757’s, and specifically N644AA (Flight 77), had seatback phones on 9/11, but Kinder still believed they didn’t, without looking into it any further. This confirmation doesn’t clarify whether or not Kinder’s original response was well-informed, and provides no additional information useful to understanding whether or not AAL 757s had working air phones on 9/11.

Furthermore, Kinder’s statement as a CSR doesn’t represent AAL’s position on this issue. AAL’s position was represented by John Hotard, a manager in AAL Corporate Communications (public relations), whose statements I address in Section 3C below. In addition, on 8/14/07 JREF user pomeroo reported that he received this statement from Hotard; “Kinder’s response was based on information that an order had been issued to remove Airphones from the 757 fleet. He did not have information on the specific aircraft or the timetable to remove them.” This is yet another indication that Kinder didn’t thoroughly research the issue, and that his response is unreliable as evidence that AAL 757’s didn’t have working air phones on 9/11.

B. The 757 AMM 23-19-00-0 page and AMTMAN

This section concerns a document first posted by PFT, and a set of documents posted shortly afterward by JREF user AMTMAN. AMTMAN first registered at JREF 7/11/07; two weeks after PFT posted their document on 6/26/07 (in conjunction with Griffin’s6/26/07 retraction of his 5/7/07 retraction). Regarding the relevance of the PFT document, Griffin says in his Response to Questionsessay,

The second new piece of information, supplied by Rob Balsamo of Pilots for 9/11 Truth, was [23-19-00-0] a page from the Boeing 757 Aircraft Maintenance Manual (757 AMM), which has the date January 28, 2001 at the bottom of the page. The first sentence of this page states: “The passenger telephone system was deactivated by ECO [Engineering Change Order] FO878.”

To date, ECO FO878 has not been produced, only 23-19-00-0, which refers to it. Griffin, Balsamo, as well as Craig Ranke and Aldo Marquis (the middlemen for the 23-19-00-0 source), have interpreted the 1/28/01 date on 23-19-00-0 as meaning ECO FO 878 was issued before 9/11/01.

However, there are a number of problems with this interpretation. After the first two sentences that discuss deactivation of the “passenger telephone system,” the rest of the text refers to maintenance of the “Claircom Telephone System.” Why the sudden shift in descriptor and context? According to AMTMAN, the “TR” to the left of the first two sentences signifies “Temporary Revision.” AMTMAN challenged Ranke/Balsamo to go on the record stating what TR means, as well as give the date associated with this particular TR. At the time, Balsamo had been banned from JREF (including his alleged sockpuppet, weedwacker. Also see this 12/27/10 JREF thread for a list of other alleged Balsamo socks at JREF, as well as those used at other forums), but Ranke was participating in the 23-19-00-0 thread. Ranke never responded to AMTMAN’s questions or statement regarding the meaning and date of said TR, I could find no record of it being addressed at the CIT or PFT forums, and the comment threads at Screw Loose Change (SCL) in which Ranke, Balsamo and AMTMAN were apparently participating, reportedly were lost, along with many others, when SCL switched comment hosts in 2009.

On 8/9/07, AMTMAN posted this 23-19-00-0 TR Cover Page as evidence ‘TR’ means ‘Temporary Revision’; AMTMAN also said it “proves that first sentence [in 23-19-00-0] did not appear until 4/2007” (the document lists the TR date as 4/19/07, and the TR release date as 4/13/07). Evidence that AMTMAN is correct about the meaning of ‘TR’, and how it affects dates on AAL maintenance records, is thisupdate to 23-19-00-0 posted 3/25/08, which has text identical to the one posted by PFT, but has a different software revision version/date, ‘AAL’ where ‘TR’ once was, and “9/28/07” as the date at the bottom of the page. This was posted at the same image sharing account as ECO FO871XX, discussed next.

7/16/07 AMTMAN said,

It's most interesting that PfT say they could not locate F0878 yet they have several others dated for 2002. Well there's ECO F0871 that states that the Claircom system will be switched to the off position and associated circuit breakers pulled and collared. It's dated March 2002.

On 9/14/07 SCL posted two pages from ECO FO871XX, presumably provided by AMTMAN. The first page is an order for “Telephone circuit breaker and toggle switch deactivation” with dates beginning March 13, 2002. The second page is a list of 18 out of 121 total 757’s, beginning with 5BR, on which this work was completed in April 2002. The first page lists fleet designation series 610-643, 5BR-5ES and 5ET-5FP. AAL 77 had registration number N644AA, and was in fleet 644. According to the database at rzjets.net, N645AA is in fleet 5BR. It seems reasonable to conclude that ECO FO871XX lists the series that would have included N644AA; having been destroyed in the crash at the Pentagon, it would not have been included in work being done in March and April, 2002. A 9/18/07 update on the 23-19-00-0 page at PFT says, “We are currently in the process of analyzing the conflicts and will update this article as more information becomes available,” but I found no further record of ECO FO871 being addressed by PFT, CIT or JREF.

Some at JREF raised questions about the authenticity of the date on the PFT document (23-19-00-0), as well as about AMTMAN. Griffin has said the documents provided by PFT and AMTMAN are contradictory, and given reasons to prefer PFT’s 23-19-00-0 (see Summary of Section 3, below), as well as their interpretation of the 1/28/01 date on it. However, no one has demonstrated that any of the five AAL pages were forged or tampered with, and AMTMAN vouched for the authenticity of the version of 23-19-00-0 posted by PFT. PFT has not posted records specifically related to the deactivation or disconnection of air phones on N644AA (see also John Hotard’s statements, Section 3C, below). ECO FO878 has not been produced, nor hard evidence of the date on it. I didn’t find that PFT/CIT ever said what the ECO FO878 date was; PFT said “ECO FO878 … could not be located.” No evidence has been provided to support the claim ECO FO878 was issued prior to 1/28/01, which is what the release of 23-19-00-0 allegedly shows, according to CIT, Balsamo and Griffin.

C. John Hotard, AAL Corporate Communications

The third piece of evidence cited by Griffin is an account provided by John Hotard, a manager in Corporate Communications (aka Media Relations; public relations) at AAL, meaning he was authorized to publicly represent American Airlines company positions on certain matters. The source Griffin cites for Hotard is a comment posted at JREF by user pomeroo aka Ron, who apparently pasted text from email exchanges he had with Hotard. On 1/19/11, in response to my fourth request for information about Hotard’s statements reported at JREF, I received this reply from AAL Media Relations: “Mr. Hotard retired a year ago last September.” That was the entirety of the reply; no other info was given, even though I had asked for confirmation of American Airlines’ position on the issue of whether or not Flight 77 had working seatback phones on 9/11/01.

In any case, the emails pomeroo posted, as well as one posted by JREF user Panoply Perfect (see quote below), make it clear that Hotard, unlike Chad Kinder, had researched the issue of whether or not there were working seatback phones on AAL 757s on 9/11, and specifically in the case of N644AA. Among other things, Hotard said 6/27/07, “Ron, I am doublechecking with my maintenance folks so I give you accurate data.”

In Griffin’s Response to Questions essay, he quotes from and comments on Hotard’s 6/29/07 reply:

“An Engineering Change Order to deactivate the seatback phone system on the 757 fleet had been issued by that time [9/11/2001].” Following this statement, Hotard emphasized that photographs showing seatback phones in American 757s after 9/11 would not prove anything, for this reason: “We did two things: issued the engineering change orders to disconnect/disable the phones, but then did not physically remove the phones until the aircraft went ... in for a complete overhaul.”

Griffin represents Hotard’s account as confirming the idea that the seatback phones weren’t working on AAL 77. However, he neglected to quote the sentence that immediately preceded the first one he quoted, where Hotard says, “Ron, engineers at our primary Maintenance & Engineering base in Tulsa tell me that they cannot find any record that the 757 aircraft flown into the Pentagon on 9/11 had had its seatback phones deactivated by that date.” Griffin also omits mention, even though it was in the same post that he cites, of Hotard’s statement of what was apparently a consensus conclusion at AAL: "It is our contention that the seatback phones on Flight 77 were working because there is no entry in that aircraft’s records to indicate when the phones were disconnected." Contrary to the way Griffin represented it, Hotard’s account is evidence the air phones on AAL 77 were working.

On 7/19/07, JREF user Panoply Perfect aka SLOB reported receiving a substantially similar reply from Hotard: “Mr (My name excluded), we have checked the records of the Boeing 757 aircraft on Flight 77. While there are records that indicate an Engineering Change Order was issues [sic] prior to 9/11 to remove the phones from the Boeing 757 fleet, there is no documentation in that particular aircraft’s records that indicate the phones had been disabled or removed by 9/11.”

D. Cpt. Ralph Kolstad, retired AAL Pilot

Griffin cites as his fourth piece of evidence, “email letters to Rob Balsamo and David Griffin, December 22, 2009” from PFT member and former (retired 2005) AAL B757/767 pilot Cpt. Ralph Kolstad; “[T]he ‘air phones,’ as they were called, were … deactivated in early or mid 2001. They had been deactivated for quite some time prior to Sep 2001.” In response to a question about this statement, Kolstad added: “I have no proof, but I am absolutely certain that the phones were disconnected on the 757 long before Sep 2001. They were still physically installed in the aircraft, but they were not operational."

Kolstad's and Hotard's statements contradict each other, but in Hotard's case he cites “[his] maintenance folks” and "that aircraft’s [N644AA] records." Kolstad admits having no proof, and his statement is based on his recollection. While possible, it seems unlikely that a commercial airline pilot would find the deactivation of seatback phones, which had never been extensively used and were in declining use by passengers, to be such a significant event that they would make a point of knowing when the deactivations were completed on the entire AAL 757 fleet. It seems even less likely that, over eight years later, someone could recall with ‘absolute certainty’ that it was “long before Sep 2001.” In any case, Hotard’s account should be given greater consideration, unless it can be shown there’s reason to believe AAL’s records were tampered with, or that Hotard was misled or misrepresenting the record, or that the Hotard emails posted by pomeroo and Panoply Perfect were fabricated. However, Griffin did not see a reason to question the authenticity of Hotard’s reply to pomeroo(see Section 3C above).

There are other reasons to be skeptical of Kolstad’s credibility. For instance, Kolstad has been listed as a member of Pilots for 9/11 Truth (PFT) since 2007 (the PFT member list says, “Core members listed in the order they joined.” Kolstad is currently listed 4th, but when he was first listed, he was 25th). PFT is an organization that, beginning with its launch in 2006, has actively perpetuated thecontroversialerroneousdiscredited (pdf), and counter-productive claim that AAL 77 didn’t crash into the Pentagon (PFT insists it only presents evidence that it could not have happened as reported). PFT, based on a miscalculation of g-force (pdf) and incomplete FDR data (pdf), has claimed the FDR from AAL 77 showed the plane could not have hit the Pentagon. PFT has corrected some of its mathematical errors, but as yet has not corrected the major error in its calculations, according to which the g-force far exceeded what the plane could have physically withstood. Now that the final four seconds of FDR data have been decoded and analyzed by Warren Stutt and Frank Legge (pdf), showing AAL 77 to have been on a trajectory ending at the Pentagon, PFT is insisting the FDR can’t be linked to N644AA, in addition to making false claims of mistakes in the Legge-Stutt paper, and leveling insults and innuendo at Legge and Stutt (see the forum thread for more insults and innuendo, link at note 4 in the press release). In November 2009, PFT began promoting the erroneous claim that the speeds achieved by AAL 11 and UAL 175 prior to hitting WTC 1 and 2 were “impossible” Also in November 2009 PFT began claiming that FDR parameter “FLT_DECK_DOOR” only showing “0” for the entire AAL 77 flight proved the cockpit door never opened, and a hijack was therefore “impossible.” However, this parameter apparently was not in use, as a “1” was never recorded for it in the entire 42 hours of FDR data, over a total of 12 flights (scroll down to: reply posted on 27-11-2009 @ 09:53 PM by 911files). Over the years, PFT has worked with Citizen Investigation Team (CIT) on a number of projects; CIT is known for selective quotation, interpretation and inclusion of witness statements in their films, and accusing witnesses and critics of being disinfo agents. Despite listing many pilots and military as members, PFT has contributed essentially no substantive information regarding important issues such as standard FAA/NORAD proceduresmilitary preparedness prior to and on 9/11Donald Rumsfeld’s June 1, 2001 order changing air defense procedures to require him to be in a loop from which he was absent on 9/11, the air defense failures on 9/11, and the military exercises coinciding with 9/11.

Furthermore, in Kolstad’s August 20, 2007 statement to Patriots Question 9/11, he says, "One of the best books available, published about one year later, is David Icke’s book Alice in Wonderland and the World Trade Center Disaster.  It has some tremendous research and analysis in it." David Icke is perhaps most famous for asserting the world's powerbrokers are reptilian humanoids from another planet, and that they created the human race. For over 20 years, in more than 20 books and DVDs, on his website, and in interviews and public appearances, Icke has been making these and other nonsensical claims and allegations, while insisting these are his sincere beliefs. Claims about ‘reptilians’ are featured in the book that Kolstad recommends.

Summary of Section 3

Regarding the documents produced (see Section 3B above), Griffin observed correctly that the identity of neither source can be verified. He goes on to say, "Whereas the purported AMM page is consistent with the testimony of Customer Service Representative Chad Kinder, pilot Ralph Kolstad, and Public Relations Representative John Hotard, the purported ECO provided by AMTMAN is contradicted by the testimony of all of these past and present AAL employees." Griffin concluded his section 3 by saying, “… we cannot yet claim to have proof … [but] The evidence is very strong, therefore, that Barbara Olson could not possibly have made calls from Flight 77.”

The conclusion that the evidence for impossible calls is “very strong” is actually contradicted and/or undermined by Griffin’s own sources:

Section 3A: Kinder’s own statements don’t support the claim that Kinder was well informed about the operational status of the seatback phones on N644AA. Additionally, AAL Corporate Communications manager John Hotard stated that CSR Chad Kinder was misinformed.

Section 3B: The documents posted by AMTMAN and PFT have not been shown to be fabricated or tampered with, and appear to be authentic AAL maintenance records. The 4/19/07 23-19-00-0 TR cover sheet and 9/28/07 final revision of 23-19-00-0 provided by AMTMAN show that PFT’s 23-19-00-0 didn’t contain the first two sentences until April 2007. There’s no legitimate basis for claiming that ECO FO878 was dated on or prior to 1/28/01, based on PFT’s 23-19-00-0. The ECO FO871 provided by AMTMAN supports the claim that deactivation work did not begin on AAL’s 757s until March 2002.

Section 3C: Hotard cited AAL’s records and mechanics, and, in emails to two different people, said there was no record of N644AA’s seatback phones being disabled. He further stated that it is AAL’s position that the seatback phones on N644AA were operational on 9/11. Griffin made it seem that Hotard’s account supports the faked phone calls theory by ignoring Hotard’s statements that explicitly contradict the claim that the seatback phones weren’t operational.

Section D: Ralph Kolstad’s recollection is questionable, as it came over eight years after what would have been a relatively inconsequential event from a pilot’s perspective. His credibility has been undermined by his membership in Pilots for 9/11 Truth, and his endorsement of David Icke’s 9/11 book.

Conclusion: The most authoritative sources available on the issue of whether or not the air phones were operational on N644AA during 9/11 are Hotard and the documents provided by AMTMAN, and these support the conclusion that the air phones were operational. There is no credible evidence that, “Barbara Olson could not possibly have made calls from Flight 77.”

4. “The FBI’s report on phone calls from the 9/11 airliners did not undermine Ted Olson’s report about receiving phone calls from his wife.”

In this section of his Response to Questions essay, Griffin examines the reported calls from Barbara Olson to Ted Olson. Griffin presents and analyzes different scenarios concerning the call records and the number of calls said to have been made. There are some odd elements and missing pieces, but no hard evidence the calls did not happen. There is evidence they did, and it is not correct to say the FBI has “undermine[d] Ted Olson’s report.”

One notable part is where Griffin takes issue with jimd3100's explanation for why there were connected calls without a record of who called:

jimd3100: If you use a credit card and pay yourself you dial the number yourself and a record from the airphone is then made. She did that once and it didn't go through ... you have the one recorded call, and the number dialed from the airphone. The others were made collect and therefor [sic] the operator dialed the number not the person using the airphone therefor [sic] the number called is unknown (not dialed on the airphone) but the time the airphone was used is known and recorded.

Griffin: There are two problems with this explanation. First, as we already saw, only one of the calls from Barbara Olson reportedly received by her husband’s office came through an operator. The other one, Lori Keyton said, was a direct call. Second, it is simply not the case that collect calls made through operators leave no record. (Without a record, how would the phone company know whom to charge for the calls?) So this explanation is about a [sic] wrong as an explanation can be.

Re: the first problem, the direct call to Ted Olson

AT&T collect call operators, like most other people in the US, were probably well aware of the plane crashes in NYC by the time of Barbara Olson’s calls, and the US was under terrorist attack. Having been told by Olson that her plane had been hijacked, the operator may have simply connected the call for Olson, rather than waste time in a life-or-death situation. AT&T operator Mercy Lorenzo connected at least one of Olson’s calls, and told her co-worker Teresa Gonzalez that Olson said the plane was hijacked; both operators took the claim so seriously that they each called the FBI (see quotes and links below). These FBI 302 interview records don’t say a call was connected directly; the direct call may have been connected by another operator, or Lorenzo/Gonzalez may not have wanted to admit doing this, as it was contrary to standard procedure. However, the idea that a subsequent call from Olson was put through directly is plausible, even probable. There is a lack of evidence that explains the direct call, but there’s no evidence it didn’t happen. This is something that could be verified or disproven by an independent investigation with the necessary resources and authorities. In addition, if the 9/11 plot involved faked phone calls, it seems unlikely that a seemingly contradictory and potentially suspicious element would be introduced into the narrative - but here it is, and Griffin has made an issue out of it. Furthermore, it also seems unlikely a plot involving faked calls would introduce an unnecessary element of complexity; faking a call to an operator, in order for a collect call to be involved.

In the 911Blogger comments thread for Griffin’s CBC Fifth Estate Interview, as well as in the thread for jimd3100’s essay which Griffin quotes from, I had suggested this may have been the reason for the direct call. However, in his Response to Questions essay, Griffin does not address the possibility that AT&T operators connected Olson’s call(s) directly. A review of the endnotes for this essay shows that he did review the comment threads for both 911Blogger posts; in addition to others’ comments, he quotes a number of my own comments, citing my 911Blogger user name, ‘loose nuke’, and pointing out that my comments revealed a lack of awareness that Griffin had retracted his retraction of his claim that AAL 757’s didn’t have seatback phones on 9/11. The CBC Interview comment thread included my quoting from the FBI 302 reports of interviews with Lorenzo and Gonzalez:

FBI 302 9/11/01 (p. 17): Mercy Lorenzo, operator for AT&T Services AT&T, telephonically contacted the Federal Bureau of Investigation FBI to report an emergency phone call received by her while on duty at AT&T. After being advised of the identity of the interviewing agent and the nature of the interview, she provided the following information:

A female passenger called from the telephone located on the back of the airplane seat. Passenger requested to be connected with her husband, a sergeant who resides in Washington, D.C. The passenger advised the plane was currently being hi-jacked. The hi-jackers, armed with guns and knives, were ordering the passengers to move to the back of the plane. The passenger wanted to know how to let the pilots know what was happening. It did not appear as if they were aware of the situation.

FBI 302 9/11/01 (p. 36): Teresa Gonzalez, operator for AT&T Services AT&T, telephonically contacted the Federal Bureau of Investigation FBI to report an emergency phone call received by AT&T. After being advised of the identity of the interviewing agent and the nature of the interview, she provided the following information:

Mercy Lorenzo, also an operator with AT&T, received a call from a female passenger on flight 77 requesting to be transferred to telephone number [redacted] The female passenger advised the plane was being hi-jacked. Hi-jackers were ordering passengers to move to the back of the plane and were armed with guns and knives. Lorenzo indicated the pilot might not yet be aware of the take over of the plane. Additionally, the number provided was the number of the passenger's husband. He is a Sergeant and resides in Washington, D.C.

From the context, it’s obvious the “female passenger” is Barbara Olson. Her husband, Ted Olson, was Solicitor General at the Justice Dept (DOJ), not a “Sergeant”, but it seems likely this was just a misunderstanding. In addition, an unredacted version of the Gonzalez FBI 302 obtained by 9/11 Myths shows the number that was called: 202-514-2201. An online search quickly confirms this is a number for the Solicitor General at DOJ. This number is also listed in the Memorandum for the Record (MFR) for a 5/20/04 DOJ briefing to the 9/11 Commission (p. 2).

Guns on all four flights, six hijackers on AAL 77?

Notice from the above 302s that Mercy Lorenzo said Olson reported the hijackers had guns. This is an element that conflicts with the official 9/11 narrative; why is it here, if the phone calls were faked, and why is it FBI records, if these were faked? Guns were also reported on the three other hijacked flights. On 9/11/01, an FAA memo said that AAL 11 passenger Daniel Lewin (of the Israeli Defense Forces) had been shot (HistoryCommons AAL 11); the FAA claimed this was an early report and erroneous. According to some accounts (pp. 13, 23, 54, 57), UAL 175 passenger Peter Hanson reported that a stewardess had been shot: other accounts only mentioned a bomb, mace, knives and stabbing. The 302 record of Deena Burnett’s 9/15/01 FBI interview (p. 12) says, “Call 2 … said subjects in cockpit with guns.” In an interview with the London Times published 8/11/02, Deena said, “He told me one of the hijackers had a gun. He wouldn’t have made it up. Tom grew up around guns. He was an avid hunter and we have guns in our home. If he said there was a gun on board, there was.” According to her 4/26/04 interview with the 9/11 Commission, “Burnett's exact words to Deena were, ‘I think one of them has a gun.’"

Furthermore, the official 9/11 narrative says there were five hijackers on AAL 77, but Flight Attendant Renee May reported six: “Renee told her mother that the flight she had been hijacked by six 6 hijackers. Renee further explained that the hijackers put ‘us’ in the back of the airplane.” FBI 302 9/12/01 (p. 37)

The 9/11 Commission considered but dismissed the reports of six hijackers on AAL 77, and of guns and shootings, as erroneous. Though guns would explain how the hijackers were so easily able to take over the flights and subdue the crews and passengers, these reports have since been largely ignored by the media and the 9/11 Truth Movement. It’s conceivable that fake bombs could be smuggled on board by passengers, but guns would almost certainly have to have been placed on board prior to the flight, by maintenance crews or others with access to the planes. It may be there is something more here, but it’s also possible the Commission is correct, and these reports were simply mistaken. An investigation not controlled by insiders with conflicts of interest (also see this on Executive Director Philip Zelikow) and a pre-established agenda, such as was the 9/11 Commission, might be able to credibly establish the whole truth regarding these matters and the many other unanswered questions and information in the public record which conflicts with the official 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Re: the second problem, the lack of records

Phone companies have records for phone calls. The FBI obtained call records for all four 9/11 flights (AAL 77 pp. 11-24) as part of its investigation and provided them to the 9/11 Commission. American Airlines phone calls were carried by Claircom. In reviewing these records for AAL 11 and AAL 77, it is seen that all calls from the two AAL flights had 904-555-0004 as the originating number. Two direct calls were attempted, but not connected; one to May’s parents, and one to Ted Olson’s office. One connected call at 7:12:18 (6:12:18 PST) used a Visa card, went to the phone number of Renee May’s parents, and lasted for 158 seconds (AT&T/Claircom p. 13). When interviewed by the FBI, Renee’s mother, Nancy May, said Renee had called about this time, told her the plane was hijacked by six hijackers who had moved them to the back of the plane, and gave her mother three AAL phone numbers to call (9/12/01 FBI 302, p. 37). The other AAL 77 connected calls either went to “0”, or didn’t list a number.

According to a 5/20/04 DOJ briefing given to the 9/11 Commission on Cell and Phone Calls from AA 77 (p. 1), “All of the calls from Flight 77 were made via the onboard airphone system. That system did not provide information about the location of the airphone from which each call was made, and allowed for the identification of the called number for only three of the eight calls.” It does seem strange that the system routing and tracking these calls would not record the number being called, but if the terminating number was the operator, that would be the one number where it would be unimportant if the system does not record a “0,” as, if the field was blank, it could be understood to have been a call to the operator. Certainly, the system used was not entirely up to date; for instance, although the correct date and times for calls are listed under “Start Time,” fields called “Billing Start” and “Answer Supervision” contain the following text for every call; “Wed Dec 31 18:00:00 1969.” A note on this line, apparently added by either AT&T/Claircom or the FBI, explains, “Time is not tracked because OSPS [Operator Services] bills.” Additional support for the idea that these calls went to the operator is that no credit or phone card information was entered for these calls. In any case, a full investigation might be able to settle this question, but it isn’t evidence of faked calls. In addition, if this is a suspicious element, why would it have been introduced as part of a faked calls plot?

Regarding the phone number(s) where the Claircom calls from the AAL flights were redirected to, it seems AT&T should have records; the OSPS billing records, for instance. In addition, DOJ would have phone bills, that, at a minimum, should show a collect call received, if not detailed data on all calls received. Furthermore, DOJ might have its own system for recording, logging and tracking calls received. Among the 9/11 Commission records released to the public, I have not found these records. Apparently the FBI did not receive such records; the5/20/04 DOJ briefing (p. 2) says, “… there was no direct evidence with respect to the ‘unknown calls’ ..." No explanation for this was given in the briefing, and I have not found other records which provide an explanation. The explanation may simply be the FBI didn’t get the billing/other records from OSPS and DOJ, and didn’t ask AT&T/DOJ for an explanation, though it seems they would have, as they were seeking to find out what calls were made, and who made and received them. If anyone wants to investigate this or pressure the DOJ/FBI for answers, fine. However, claiming this absence of evidence is evidence the calls were faked is not warranted, especially in light of the fact that the rest of Griffin’s case for faked calls doesn’t hold up under scrutiny, as I have shown throughout this essay.

Two, four or zero calls from Barbara Olson to Ted Olson?

According to the 5/20/04 DOJ briefing (p. 2), “interviews with recipients (especially Lori Keyton who was answering the phone in Ted Olson's office on 9/11), plus interviews of family members of other Flight 77 passengers, has led to the conclusion that all of these unknown calls were from Barbara Olson to her husband Ted's office.” It is puzzling the DOJ/FBI reached this conclusion, given that Solicitor General Ted Olson, his Special Assistant Helen Voss, and his Secretary Lori Keyton all told the FBI there had been two calls from Barbara Olson (9/11/01 FBI 302s, pp. 1-3, 59). Certainly, Ted Olson is an untrustworthy character, but in this instance his account was corroborated by Keyton and Voss, in addition to the statements by AT&T operators Mercy Lorezo and Teresa Gonzalez. Also, the AT&T/Claircom call records showed an attempted call to Ted Olson’s number, as well as the connected unknown calls around the time/duration Ted Olson, Keyton and Voss said the calls were received from Barbara Olson. It would have been reasonable for the FBI to conclude that there were two connected calls from Barbara Olson to Ted Olson. It also would have been reasonable for the FBI to say they were unable to determine who was involved on the other connected calls from and to unknown parties. After all, the call records were missing information or unavailable, and there were 64 people on board AAL 77, each with an unknowable number of relationships; how could the FBI rule out that calls might have been made to persons not interviewed? Instead, the FBI is apparently alleging Ted Olson had more conversations with his wife than he remembers or admits, and that Voss and Keyton suffered from the same lapse of memory/attention, or were also not forthcoming. Bizarre and deserving an explanation, yes. Evidence of faked calls, no.

It’s interesting and possibly significant that, according to Keyton’s 302 (p. 59),

At approximately 9:00am, she received a series of approximately six 6 to eight 8 collect telephone calls. Each of the calls was an automated collect call. There was a recording advising of the collect call and requesting she hold for an operator. A short time later another recording stated that all operators were busy, please hang up and try your call later.

The AAL 77 call record does not show these six to eight calls.

Conclusion

In the Conclusion to his Response to Questions essay, Griffin observes, “Without the widespread assumption that the 9/11 attacks had been planned and carried out by al-Qaeda, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq would not have been possible.” This is true; without this assumption, the American people, Congress and allied nations would not have supported the wars. However, Griffin goes on to say, “… when subjected to a detailed analysis, these alleged phone calls, far from supporting the war-justifying story, lead to a very different conclusion: that these alleged calls were faked.” As I’ve shown in this essay, while Griffin has done a masterful job of creating the appearance the faked calls theory is supported by evidence and reason, this appearance rests on a significant amount of speculation, illogical argumentation, and misinterpretation and omission of evidence. There is no credible basis for claiming the 9/11 calls were faked.

Here’s a prime example of a logical fallacy, from Griffin’s Conclusion; “If the official story is false, then we should expect every major dimension of it to be false.” As Richard Falk characterized it 1/11/11, the “official version of the [9/11] events [is] an al Qaeda operation with no foreknowledge by government officials.” Any particular dimension of this story being false does not mean other indirectly related elements will be false, so that should not be expected. Furthermore, inquiry shouldn’t start with conclusions and theories, and then seek to find facts to fit them. The scientific, logical way of conducting an investigation begins with gathering facts and evidence, and seeing what conclusions they support. A hypothesis may be useful in sketching out lines of inquiry, but hypotheses are tools, not proofs; they’re tested against the facts and evidence, and rejected if they fail to fit the facts and evidence. This is not what Griffin has done; instead, he has continually, over a period of several years, marshaled whatever could be used to support the faked calls theory, and used rhetoric to undermine evidence and reason that contradicts this theory. Logical fallacies often seem logical to those employing as well as those hearing or reading them, and they can be persuasive if not examined carefully, or not examined in the context of other evidence and arguments. The presence of logical fallacies in arguments, however, always undermines the credibility of arguments and of the speaker/writer employing them.

Speculation, like hypotheses, can be useful, but it is important to recognize when one is doing it, and to not confuse speculation with fact, evidence or proof. At some points in my essay, I have engaged in speculation; my purpose in doing so is to show that there are other possible - and more probable - explanations for some of the seemingly problematic elements in records related to the 9/11 calls.

Griffin’s conclusion of Part 2 of his Response to Questions essay is worth quoting in its entirety (below), due to its repeated use of speculation and logical fallacies aimed at particular conclusions, while framed with subtle rhetorical qualifiers that make it clear Griffin understands the faked calls theory is speculative and unproven.

In the following passage I have underlined speculation, italicized logical fallacies, and bolded qualifiers, in order to draw the reader’s attention to them. In some cases statements, or parts of statements, fall into the category of both speculation and logical fallacy:

Conclusion: On the one hand, the cell phone number of Tom Burnett and probably that of Renee May showed up on Caller IDs while their planes were in the air. On the other hand, the FBI’s Moussaoui trial report states that Burnett and Renee May did not use cell phones. Unless one is willing to challenge the FBI on this point, what alternative is there except to conclude that someone fabricated at least one, and probably both, of these calls, using a device that, besides replicating the impersonated persons’ voices, also caused their cell phone numbers to appear? That is, to be sure, speculation. But if there is no other plausible way to account for the facts, it cannot be called unwarranted speculation.

Moreover, if we can say with great confidence that the reported calls from Amy Sweeney and Tom Burnett (and probably Renee May) were faked, what about the reported calls from various other people – including Sandy Bradshaw, Marion Britton, Honor Wainio, Jeremy Glick, Peter Hanson, and Brian Sweeney – that were originally said to have been made on cell phones? The only way to avoid the conclusion that they also were fakedit seems, would be to claim that they were based on misunderstanding or faulty memory. However, the accuracy of these reports is supported not only by the fact that so many people gave them, but also by the fact that the Burnett calls, having been registered on the recipient phone’s Caller ID as cell phone calls, cannot be explained with speculations about misunderstanding or faulty memory. The calls to Deena Burnett thereby support the accuracy of the claims of the other people who said they had been called from cell phonesIt would seem, therefore, that we have good evidence, with regard to most of the reported calls originally said to have been made on cell phones, that they were faked.

That conclusion leads to the further conclusion that all of the reported calls from the airliners were faked, even those that were from the beginning said to have been made from onboard phones. Why? Because if some of the calls had been genuine, reporting real hijackings, why would several people have been all set up with the equipment and information to fabricate cell phone calls from some of the passengers? If people were ready to fabricate calls from Amy Sweeney, Tom Burnett, and most of the other people who were originally said to have made cell phone calls, then the airliners were not, as the official story has it, hijacked in a surprise operation. If the most fundamental part of the official story is false, then there is no reason to accept the reality of any of the hijack-reporting phone calls from the planes.

In the first and second paragraphs above, Griffin has used logical fallacies to set up a speculative premise – and one unsupported by evidence, as I’ve shown in this essay - on which the rest of his argument is based. The main logical fallacy is the suggestion that there is no “alternative … except to conclude” that the phone calls of Tom Burnett, Amy Sweeney and “probably” Renee May were faked. As I’ve shown, there are other possible, and more probable, explanations, and Griffin’s case for faked calls has been built on errors, selective quotation/interpretation, and omission of evidence that contradicts and undermines it. The speculative premise is his conclusion that these phone calls were faked, and based this premise he argues it then follows that all the calls were faked. As there’s no actual evidence any of the phone calls were faked, there’s no basis for concluding all of the calls were faked. By using qualifiers such as “seems” and “if,” and acknowledging use of a voice-morphing cell phone faking device is “speculation,” Griffin is decidedly not going so far as to claim it’s a fact the calls were faked. However, the vast majority of his rhetoric, if uncritically accepted, leads directly to that conclusion.

In his final conclusion to his Response to Questions essay, Griffin alleges, “The evidence that the alleged phone calls from the airliners were faked is an important part of this cumulative argument [that the official 9/11 story is false].” Again, as there’s no evidence the phone calls were faked, the claim that they were faked (or may have been faked) is not only not “an important part” of the case demonstrating the official 9/11 conspiracy theory is false, this claim is actually destructive to the cause of compelling full disclosure and accountability for 9/11. Speculative theories and false claims regarding the veracity of the official 9/11 story are not only not evidence that the public has been deceived about 9/11, and not useful in educating the public or compelling a full investigation, they discredit those who promote them, and, by extension and association, discredit the 9/11 Truth Movement. In turn, this makes it more difficult for journalists and public officials to support a full investigation of 9/11, as well as less likely that the general public will.

Also in his final conclusion, Griffin says,

If asked which part of the official story can be most definitively shown to be false, I would speak not of the alleged phone calls but of the destruction of the World Trade Center, the official account of which says that the Twin Towers and WTC 7 came down without the aid of pre-set explosives. Given the fact that this theory involves massive violations of basic laws of physics, the evidence against it is so strong as to be properly called proof – as I have recently emphasized in a book-length critique of the official report on WTC 7 in particular.

It’s true the evidence is good that the official account of the Twin Towers destruction is false – this has been demonstrated by Jim Hoffman in his review of the NIST report, Building a Better Mirage, and by Steven Jones et al in their letter Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction [pdf], published in the Open Civil Engineering Journal. The official account of the destruction of World Trade Center 7 is also severely flawed, as shown by Kevin Ryan in his review, The NIST WTC 7 Report: Bush Science reaches its peak, and in this review at WTC7.net, NIST's Explanation of WTC 7's Collapse. The evidence is also good that some method of controlled demolition was used to bring down all three buildings: see911Research.WTC7.netJournalof911Studies.com and 911SpeakOut.org for the best research into this aspect of 9/11.

However, Griffin is in error when he says the destructions of WTC 1, 2 and 7 are the “part of the official story [which] can be most definitively shown to be false.” The truth is that the official 9/11 story quickly falls apart when examined from many different angles. For instance, it’s false that USSaudiPakistani and Israeli intelligence agencies have not exploited terrorist organizations in proxy wars and operations, including Al Qaeda, and that there are no connections between them and the 9/11 plot. It’s false that no one in theUS government imagined a planes-as-missiles attack on US cities, that there were no warning signs and intelligence pointing to the 9/11 plot, and that key people at StateNSACIAINSFBIFAANMCCNORADSecret Service and the White House were unaware of and/or incapable of preventing the 9/11 plot, as the public was originally told. Though it documented some new facts about what was known and not done prior to and on 9/11, the 9/11 Commission Report largely ignored, glossed over or explained away the issues raised by the links above. Things like the Project for the New American CenturyPTechpre-9/11 Afghanistan war planningpre-9/11 Iraq war planningunusual financial transactionscoincident military exercises and the 2001 Anthrax attackgot similar treatment, as did suspicious behavior, strange decisions and false statements on the part of principals such George W. BushDick CheneyDonald RumsfeldCondoleezza RiceGeorge TenetJohn AshcroftRobert MuellerRichard Myers,Ralph Eberhart and others. Likewise, the testimony of whistleblowers such as Sibel EdmondsColeen RowleyRobert Wright andAnthony Shaffer. It’s also not true that 9/11 was adequately investigated by the FBICongressional Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry and the 9/11 Commission (conflicts of Commissioners and key staffIn depth on Philip Zelikow). All of these investigations were controlled or compromised to some degree by insiders with conflicts of interest, as well as frustrated in their inquiries by agencies and persons in the Executive branch, who, in some cases, should have been targets of their investigations. Instead, in many cases, their testimonies were used as sources for the 9/11 Commission’s narrative, which also relied heavily on the testimony of tortured prisoners. In the end, the 9/11 Commission Report held no one responsible; it blamed the ‘failure’ to prevent 9/11 on failures of “imagination, policy, capabilities, and management” (p. 339). Those who bore significant responsibility for the ‘failures’ to prevent 9/11 were rewarded with raises and promotions, or increased budgets, authority and deference from Congress, as well as support from the public, as the Bush Administration rushed to subvert the Constitutioninvade Iraq and launch, in the words of Dick Cheney, a ‘war on terror’ that "may never end. At least, not in our lifetimes."

To learn more about the many other documented problems with the official 9/11 story, many of which point directly to an ‘inside job’ scenario and to specific people and institutions, I suggest exploring The Complete 9/11 Timeline hosted by HistoryCommons.org, and also 911Research.WTC7.net and 911Review.com. For a general overview, with source links, of 50 areas that deserve full investigation, see The Facts Speak for Themselves, compiled and summarized by Jon Gold. If you like reading books, I suggest The Terror Timeline by Paul Thompson (based on the timeline at HistoryCommons.org), The War on Truth by Nafeez Mossadeq Ahmed, and The Road to 9/11 by Peter Dale Scott.

Ultimately, the failure to establish truth, justice and good government lies with the American People. At the founding of the United States, Ben Franklin advised us that we had been given, “A republic, if [we] can keep it.” We do not face the kind of obstacles that people in the Middle East do, where we are seeing popular movements and revolutions against tyrannical regimes that have been supported by the Democrats, Republicans and US corporations and elites for decades. The failure of the US government to prevent 9/11, to credibly investigate it once it happened, and to establish truth and justice for responsible parties and victims, is reason enough to withdraw support from the Democrats and Republicans (and/or take back both parties from the monied elites and big business interests that control them). It’s reason enough to boycott the corporate media, faux ‘alternative’ media, and the US banking establishment, and to support independent alternatives. A Truth and Reconciliation Commission will likely be needed to get to the whole truth about 9/11, the crimes and corrupt people and institutions that enabled 9/11, and the subsequent crimes against humanity and the US Constitution that 9/11 enabled. We need to support the internet, independent media and political candidates, election integritycampaign finance reform, the Article V Convention for Proposing Amendments to the US Constitution that the Constitution peremptorily requires Congress to call,monetary reformcredit unionsalternative energyresource conservationlocal exchange trading systemslocal currenciespermatopia, and the abolition of war and corporate rule – “for ourselves and our posterity.”

on Griffin's citation of John Hotard

It's a long essay, so I would like to call people's attention to the following two paragraphs, in particular, from Section 3C; read the rest of the section and essay for more context:

In Griffin’s Response to Questions essay, he quotes from and comments on Hotard’s 6/29/07 reply:

“An Engineering Change Order to deactivate the seatback phone system on the 757 fleet had been issued by that time [9/11/2001].” Following this statement, Hotard emphasized that photographs showing seatback phones in American 757s after 9/11 would not prove anything, for this reason: “We did two things: issued the engineering change orders to disconnect/disable the phones, but then did not physically remove the phones until the aircraft went ... in for a complete overhaul.”

Griffin represents Hotard’s account as confirming the idea that the seatback phones weren’t working on AAL 77. However, he neglected to quote the sentence that immediately preceded the first one he quoted, where Hotard says, “Ron, engineers at our primary Maintenance & Engineering base in Tulsa tell me that they cannot find any record that the 757 aircraft flown into the Pentagon on 9/11 had had its seatback phones deactivated by that date.” Griffin also omits mention, even though it was in the same post that he cites, of Hotard’s statement of what was apparently a consensus conclusion at AAL: "It is our contention that the seatback phones on Flight 77 were working because there is no entry in that aircraft’s records to indicate when the phones were disconnected." Contrary to the way Griffin represented it, Hotard’s account is evidence the air phones on AAL 77 were working.

Excellent work, Erik

Amazingly thorough and a great read, as well.

Mirrored and front paged at 9/11 Truth News: http://911truthnews.com/critique-of-david-ray-griffins-fake-calls-theory

Thanks

Important research Erik. A lot to learn from here and a tremendous amount of work -- thanks for examining this issue so closely and carefully.

Clearing the decks for the 10th anniversary?

Sometimes we need to get tough on our selves before we get slaughtered by our adversaries!

I truly think DRG will step up to the plate and officially withdraw his position that we have evidence that calls were faked on 9/11 after this cutting essay by Erik. It's better to come from the movement than from the debunkers, so thank you.

The question is how many more good people will now think that 911Blogger, 911Truthnews and Visibility911 are foe rather than friend because of their ego investment?

I know for one I have given up caring about such things, I don't care how small our group is as long as it represents us in a credible and truthful manner.

Kind regards John

thanks everyone for the positive feedback (so far!)

John B: "I know for one I have given up caring about such things, I don't care how small our group is as long as it represents us in a credible and truthful manner."

I also believe it's critical, if the truth movement is to have credibility and be effective, to document and drop misinformation and speculative claims.

As John also said, "Sometimes we need to get tough on our selves before we get slaughtered by our adversaries!" and as CD67 said, "it is important to look back and weed out the definitive from the speculative"

Absolutely; whenever 'debunkers' can use reason, facts and truth against the 9/11 truth and justice movement, they do; hence my citation of JREF and 9/11 Myths in this essay, cuz in this case they've done a legitimate job, and it serves as a powerful example. WE should be doing this, and BEFORE they get a chance to make the truth movement look like fools.

I am interested to see how DRG responds.

I am interested to see how DRG responds too

This is a wonderful piece of work work, loose nuke. Let us hope that its logic will help DRG to review his work, not only on the phones but also on whether CIT deserves any credit whatsoever.

David Ray Griffin...

Is one of the biggest proponents of the idea that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon. That is very doubtful.

I must say....

...the apparent quality and detail in this work is outstanding, but most importantly it's logic and reasoning are solid.

I predict DRG will have to accept your analysis, it's simply so well reasoned.

Regards John

Good input!

I hope DRG will reply promptly to this issue, one of the weakest points in all of his writing, in my opinion. And one that unfortunately opens the door just a little too widely for debunkers out there... It seems important that he sets the matter straight to avoid other very valid parts of his work getting thrown out with it (y'know, the baby with the water stuff).

At this point in time, it is important to look back and weed out the definitive from the speculative, and this essay does just that!

Well researched, loose nuke... Thanks for putting your time into it!

Excellent work...

Erik. I have never promoted the idea that the phone calls were fake, and one of the main reasons I didn't, was because I didn't want to offend a family member who thinks they got a call from their loved one that day. On top of the fact that it sounds "crazy" to a lot of people right off the bat. I do hope people take the time to read this.

phone call fakery

...is up there with tv and video fakery and doesn't lend itself to progress, IMHO. I haven't mentioned it at all on my website (along with the 'dancing Israeli' issue).

Thank you Erik...

Thank you for compiling this important information!!!

PS...

I forgot to mention something relevant to this issue in my above comment.

A couple of months ago, I spoke with a flight attendant who works for American Airlines and Flew on AA77 quite frequently. The attendant told me there were air phones on AA77, but only 5 could operate at one time. She also said cell phones did work depending on the "provider" and Verizon happened to be a provider that had very good signal reception in the DC area.

I previously posted about my conversation with the flight attendant at the following link -
http://911blogger.com/news/2010-12-27/t-carter-flight-77-attendant-copa-...

I used to respect DRG. I

I used to respect DRG. I bought his pearl harbor book and it helped me to understand the attacks better at the time. Now, however, I believe he has become unhelpful by pushing a theory that is contradicted by evidence. Rather than accept the implausibility of his claim he suggests "fakery" to explain the countervailing evidence. I'm sorry but whether this is intentional or not we have to recognize that DRG has been compromised. Unless and until he explains his break from focusing on the hard evidence and reverses course I think he needs to be flagged as a person doing spotty research. Loyalty means nothing, truth is the goal.

Nice work

Thanks for putting in the time to be so thorough. You've done an excellent job laying bare very pertinent facts regarding one of DRG's more extreme positions, one that I've always had problems with, myself. However, you must admit there are definitely some discrepancies in what should be readily available info, that are contained in some of the official records. You've concluded accurately, however, that in light of zero actual proof, this "cellphone" issue contributes little to 911 truth or justice, and really should not be part of our discourse.

While there are a couple of points in your presentation about cellphones I might contest and side with DRG, one statement I'd like to take strong exception to is regarding his opinion about the veracity of our case against the official WTC account, and its premiere status in the movement. In your critique, you are correct when literally interpreting his statement, "If asked which part of the official story can be most definitively shown to be false, I would speak ... of the World Trade Center, the official account of which says that the Twin Towers and WTC 7 came down without the aid of pre-set explosives," is not accurate, and that there is a plethora of issues pointing to lies and a cover-up. But I interpret what DRG to be saying is that the WTC disaster is the only singular topic where we not only have evidence of lies and a cover-up, but we also have physical evidence, photographic and other forensic analysis, and eyewitness testimony pointing to the use of explosives. There is no other avenue that leads directly to "inside job," without passing go, than "explosives at the WTC." In my view (and I think DRG's), whether or not explosives were use is a black and white issue -- either they were or were not. If they were used, then 9/11 was one thing, if they were not used 9/11 is necessarily something else. When you rebutted DRG's WTC statement, you listed about twenty things. Pick the one you think is more encompassing and carries more evidence of any type. If I wanted to, I could argue that you needed to list twenty issues to match the veracity of the implications of 2.5 seconds of freefall at 5:20 pm on 9/11/01 and our evidence to explain it. But this is not a debate, and IMO your paper would be far better served if you simply left that last editorialized portion out. He was asked his opinion and he gave it.... and he is not alone in his opinion -- even here.

The most important thing you raised and where I am in complete solidarity is the need for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It's not a particularly popular approach in the movement, but IMHO it's the only historical model I've seen that stands a chance of getting the level of both truth and justice we need for a meaningful global change. I'm really glad you see its value.

Premiere status in the movement?

Not by any stretch of the imagination.

OK?

Which single event or component of that day has evolved into a more organic relationship between genuine scholars, researchers and street activists as the CD portion of the movement? The answer is....................?

I used the word "premiere" because I don't see any other singular issue regarding the official 9/11 narrative that is getting more play or is being researched as thoroughly by our professional organizations and propagated by the masses. Now, you may disagree that the CD perspective should have such a status, but it does. And that's a different argument altogether.

An error...

Does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. - Gandhi

Just because it has been shoved down our throats by a multitude of people consistently since Nov. 2005 when Steven Jones came out, over and over again, doesn't mean it is the premiere issue. I still get pushback from people with regards to it. Just the other day, I saw this article which denounces which two things? "Controlled Demolition", and a "missile hitting the Pentagon." Has it occurred to anyone by reading this article by Erik that one of the biggest proponents of the "Controlled Demolition Hypothesis" was DRG, and that maybe he was wrong to push that on everyone? He was wrong about this, so maybe he was wrong to try and make CD the "premiere issue."

The cover-up in its entirety, and the need for justice should be the focal point of this movement. Not "Controlled Demolition." It isn't our job to figure out what happened that day. It is our job to get a majority of people demanding to know what happened that day, and to hold those responsible, accountable.

I fully expect this comment to be voted down. Don't care.

Jon please go easy and back off the emotion...

I get your point and as usual see your side of this debate (you have just won another battle)....but CD is proven without a shadow of a doubt from an engineering point of view and in my opinion is central to this campaign now, not because of its affect on the masses but rather it's effect on the scientific and political community. Why? Because it shows clearly that a cabal of insiders conspired to kill their own, not merly allow something to happen or fail by incompetence. This provides the seeds of change, real change when such a dark world is understood! The cover up is obvious and easily proved, I agree but as we have seen before these ideas are not so powerful, and definitely not apparently powerful enough to cause any revolution...of the mind or of the people?

We should remember it was DRG that started the push for the WTC 7 campaign "Building What" which is universally viewed as a success. This is a positive for us as a movement and for DRG's perspective on such issues.

In my view DRG's first error was his support for Pilots for Truth as they outgunned him on the understanding of aircraft and technology in general and consequently convinced him that the 757 did not hit the Pentagon. Believing CIT was his second which in his mind confirmed that his strong position on this issue was right (against his scientific peers which he found a honey to sweet to leave alone) and that's why we see other non-engineering/science types jumping on board like Zwicker et al. Unfortunately they have let their gut rule their minds and have fallen for the trap set for them by their own egos...a very nicely laid trap indeed.

You say the CD arguments were "shoved down our throats", well maybe that's true but there were plenty of thick sculls that had to be penetrated.

This us and them mentality over "cover up" v's "controlled demolition" is a bridge too far for the relations in the movement. We are achieving change and a narrowing of our focus to the best evidence, PLEASE be grateful for that.

Your friend John

Jon, John

CD woke me up

there has to be a draw, a hook to wake people up and for me with my scientific education it was CD

in fact someone had told me there was CD on 9/11 and i wasn't even trying to prove him wrong in fact- i was so sure he was wrong that i was investigating what i thought was an irreverent (to the families) internet scam of some sort after he showed me LC2e

well, i found LC2e again and thought it was all rubbish......up to the point where they showed WTC 1 and 2 coming down against a stopwatch (i think)

then as i had been educated in maths including applied maths (forces, acceleration, etc) my eyes popped out of my head as i knew already that freefall speeds can only be achieved through air- ie somehow the structure was being removed to make the tower collapse in that way all the way vertically down through what should have been the path of most resistance

having said that i will not use CD to try and convince the average person- only scientifically minded people

i think it might be analogous to saying you like a product because you think the advert was good

once awake people need to move on to stuff like crossing the rubicon which has strong evidence inside which consists of 1000 items- sworn testimony, verifiable authentic documents

if this goes to court then remember there has to be verifiable chain of custody of dust samples etc

i hope CD will wake more people up but once in they need to read a book !

my opinion anyway !

perhaps the best is to dismantle the 9/11 conspiracy theory that has led to so much death overseas and to show what a sham the 9/11 commission was

as soon as one mentions 9/11 the sheeple have been pre programmed to say "conspiracy theory" and they smile, expecting to be entertained with some juicy far fetched but unbelievable conspiracy theory

i think we can say we are against conspiracy theory- that takes the wind out of their sails right there and tells them they are not about to be entertained

we can say the official story is a conspiracy theory which isnt supported by the evidence

we can say that with that conspiracy theory as a reason 100's of thousands of people have died in illegal invasions, occupations and subsequent civil strife, as well as loss of civil liberties at home

and if somewhere at the back of their minds they're thinking "oh well even if it is true that 9/11 was false flag then at least we're on the winning side and we got the oil"- WRONG- we can point to Unocal's pre 9/11 plans which involved piping Caspian product to India as the west's demand for resources isn't set to grow much but India's is

"....but CD is proven without

"....but CD is proven without a shadow of a doubt from an engineering point of view"

I see this comment as an example of the problem.

and i do not see that Jon was being overly emotional. he is just expressing an opinion that you do not like to hear.

How about warnings and foreknowledge, easy to understand facts?

The CD physics didn't even come into the truth movement until later. It personally took me a long time to confirm my views on the physics vs the basic facts which were easy for me to confirm. Frankly I see the physics as one of the points where we are most easily painted as crazy and easily discredited. It is not to say that there isn't overwhelming physical evidence implying issues with how the buildings came down. The point is, that physical building arguments are so easily written off as appealing to an unqualified authority. So easily dismissed that I even have people who sadly and falsely fall back on "people do win the lottery," when discussing potentials of explosives. The debunkers almost ALWAYS focus on the physics. Why? Because it is a complex area which qualified people are better at articulating and which the average person wanting the truth about 9/11 is NOT. There are lots of lying pseudo-authoritative bodies, like pop mechanics, which are quickly referenced by debunkers to quickly claim that 'those conspiracy theories have been looked into and debunked.' Easy to understand solid facts and evidence which the average person cannot write off as 'you aren't an explosives expert, yet you know a bunch of jargon words like squibs' are more effective at this point:
--Foreknowledge (stacks of ignored warnings like David Schippers)
--Dick Cheney's contradictions in what time he got to the pentagon
--Insider Trading
--Commission whitewash/cover-up
--Lack of air defense
--President staying in the room

Why are they more effective? Because they haven't been pseudo-confronted by debunkers nearly as often. These points can't just be explained away, or even framed to do so (which is the case in bringing up demolitions). These points also are less marred in 'I've already heard all the theories there are about that and they have been looked into and so I don't need to re-look at them.' Controlled demo's were brought up on South Park for cryin out loud! Did showing this to the enormous audience of South Park get people to start getting deeper into the truth? No! Partially because South Park framed it so 9/11 Truth looked crazy, BUT ALSO, because the physics issues had so many buzz phrases and jargon around them that they are easily painted as conspiracy theories. There are basic facts about 9/11 which are strong points and have had far less debunking attacks on them. I personally continue to find, especially with call in shows, that the goal of the host is always to push it to the physics argument and then site pop mechanics etc. We succeed when we get them off of it and get focused on more basic questions. This would be different if we are Jim Hoffman or Richard Gage, but most of us are not.
Think of it like this:
Most people in the US have heard the idea that there may have been controlled demolitions (ie South Park etc). Yet, we don't see a real general knowledge of the OCT lies. We don't see a public outcry. Most people don't even realize there wasn't going to be an investigation initially. Unfortunately in MANY CASES, this lack of development stems from the fact that we have been painted as a CD movement.

Sorry I know this is not related to the thread. So....Thank you Erik. This article is CRITICAL. It's been necessary for sometime now. DRG better step up or step out. Great comments on this thread to. Mr. Larson you have helped us in the best way.

because...

you said: "Most people in the US have heard the idea that there may have been controlled demolitions (ie South Park etc)."

That's because it's the issue we push the most, making it our premiere issue (whether we like it or not, or until we replace it), and the ramifications are more easily understood, than say three different time lines for scramble orders. This is where I look at things like "South Park" as very revealing and differently than most. It's because CD can be so easily attacked that indicates its message is simple and potent and it touches on the nerves that need to be touched for people to be able to deal with the truth.

Then you say: "Yet, we don't see a real general knowledge of the OCT lies."

Well, my only answer that is it's pretty widely known that Bush and Co. lied about some pretty horrendous stuff, including torturing children. Actually, they admit to torturing and the public could care less because they feel powerless. That hurdle is far more daunting than trying to straighten people out over a South Park spoof.

My use of the word "premiere" was meant primarily as an empirical observation, and not necessarily an endorsement, though I have no issues with Gage, Jones, Ryan, et.al., even if it leads to a spoof on South Park. I think we need to be a little more thick skinned about some of this.

thanks, and on the WTC CD issue

"When you rebutted DRG's WTC statement, you listed about twenty things. Pick the one you think is more encompassing and carries more evidence of any type."

To be sure, I acknowledged and provided links to sources documenting the flaws in the official WTC reports, as well as credible orgs investigating the evidence of CD. While I don't agree with those who think the CD evidence isn't strong/important, I do agree with the point that many have made (beginning with Mike Ruppert, and including many times by Jon Gold) that it's a tactical error to promote CD to the point where other stuff isn't being addressed, or even to put CD front and center. There are many areas of 9/11 that need to be investigated, and not all types of evidence are compelling to everyone. Granted, realizing WTC CD shatters the myth, but many can't make the leap. Plus, the question remains; who did it?

Polling has shown about 16% think the WTC was or probably was destroyed by explosives, but about 1/2 of Americans support a new investigation. Even more believe the whole truth hasn't been told, and that certain things were lied about, like what was known prior to 9/11 about impending attacks. This means far more people will be receptive to the wealth of evidence pointing to cover up, which, by itself, is criminal and treasonous.

Evidence that the official 9/11 investigations were whitewash/cover up is compelling to Americans of conscience, who are also frustrated by the lack of accountability for the Iraq War lies and the subversion of the Constitution/civil liberties/human rights. Granted, the question remains; what's being covered up - incompetence, negligence, complicity? Not knowing means we need an investigation, and urgently, given the way 9/11 has been exploited, and the historical record of false/manufactured pretexts for war/subversion of the Constitution. And, as I linked, there's a wealth of evidence that is most readily/only explained by complicity on levels beyond 'Al Qaeda,' evidence which in some cases points to specific people.

So, I do not agree with you that anyone should "pick one."

9/11 polls
http://911blogger.com/node/20824
http://911blogger.com/news/2011-01-21/poll-germany-895-doubt-official-ve...

.......

"I do not agree with you that anyone should 'pick one.'"

So why quote or give value to DRG's answer to a rhetorical question you consider moot? To "pick one" was DRG's qualifier to his comment, which even he would admit is merely a rhetorical construct used to emphasize his strong belief in the importance of the WTC evidence.

I'm also not completely sure whether your critique is about the "cellphone calls," or DRG, himself. For the most part, you were very careful to keep the bulk of your paper about the calls. But, I'm really not sure what DRG's opinion about the importance of exposing the WTC fraud has to do with the use of cellphones, air phones, neither, or both? It's not germane to your stated topic. And while I admire, respect, and even agree with most of the content of you conclusion, IMO your conclusion is an editorial about something other than cellphone calls, tagged to the end of an otherwise meticulous analysis of an extraordinary claim. My suggestion is rewrite the end, footnote it, and submit it to the Journal of 9/11 Studies. I can tell you put in a lot of work, and it shows.

picking nits and nuts

in my essay i veered off on tangents at several points as it seemed like a good opportunity to make points on other things related, directly and indirectly.

In the case of my commenting on DRG's WTC comment, it was in his essay, so I commented on it, and made the points I thought were important. I think it's important for truth activists to consider what is and isn't good evidence/strategy.

Someone commented once in the forum at truthmove.org, fake calls theory would be nowhere w/o DRG; he's done the most work to develop it, and give it a veneer of respectability. His Jan 2010 essay is his most comprehensive and detailed treatment of the fake calls theory, that I'm aware of.

So, while my essay is criticism of the fake calls theory in general, and also criticism of DRG's choices in his history of developing the fake calls theory, it's focused on the Jan 2010 essay in particular, and I've criticized DRG's choice of subject (choosing to develop the fake calls theory, something i think is lacking evidence/bogus), and also his methodology, interpretation, evidence, sources, etc.

Glad you think it's good work, but i don't think it's a fit for JO911S as it's a critical review, not a scientific study. Footnotes are impressive, and I have to do it for college papers, but, imho, links are enough for a blog post; w/ a mouse over one knows the source, and if someone really wants to know author/date, etc., and read the source, it just takes a click.

I've commented before that i'm not a fan of DRG's work, though I learned a lot from New Pearl Harbor and Omissions and Distortions. I've noticed that in most/all of his books, DRG gives credence to ideas for which there isn't good evidence, and which have been used to discredit the 9/11 truth movement, such as fake calls/voice morphing, no 757 crash at the Pentagon, N path/flyover, alive hijackers. That he cites sources that are dubious/disreputable/discredited, for instance, Jim Fetzer, Judy Wood, Chris Bollyn, Greg Syzmanski, Dave McGowan, Tom Flocco, Rowland Morgan, etc. That he endorses and/or associates with people/orgs whose claims and behavior have disrupted and/or discredited the 9/11 truth movement, such as CIT, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Fetzer, Kevin Barrett, etc.

I'm glad

that you understand the constructive nature and intent of my comments. You have the quality of being self aware, which is at the foundation of good research and good writing. I still think "veering off into tangents" about DRG's methodology and sources detracts from your analysis, rather than helps it. You have attempted to analyze this "cell phone" issue by presenting an exhaustive array of facts. This is the model we all should adopt. By veering away from that, you are doing precisely what you and others say we shouldn't. As Jon Gold has said, "Let the facts speak for themselves." You have done a huge service by collecting and organizing the facts on the cellphone issue. You could have simply concluded that there is simply no evidence of faked phone calls and it would not have detracted from your work one bit, and actually would have made it a stronger essay, leaving it devoid of speculation about your motives.

And this is not your run-of-the-mill blog entry. It's a well-researched, documented essay from which you can draw a solid conclusion. It's very close to being of academic standards. Don't sell yourself short on that.

I see your point....but...

....not enough people understand that when an "expert" speaks it is not gospel, until we understand the reasoning, status and the character of that expert.

When retired Captains of commercial aircraft state their opinion on things they have neither experience of or qualifications to understand, as facts we should be immediately concerned. But many will simply believe them because of their now not used (retired) qualifications and once held status.

Do you think the pilots at P4T while employed in the industry would say a possible speed of a Boeing was this or that or that the modification status was this or that if they did not have clearance or the documents to say so? Absolutely not or they would soon not be employed.

Groups like P4T have relied primarily on there qualifications to drive aircraft as proof that their opinion's are right, and unfortunately the common truther buys that. The truth is that a a pilot is licensed to operate a plane and to drive and navigate it from here to there. They are not scientists or engineers or scholars of any kind. Their opinion on anything other than operating that plane they are licensed on within it's normal operating limits is only as good as any well researched laymans.

More importantly we see these pilot experts backing unsupported theories (many now proved false) and esoteric figures around the truth movement. This context is what Erik's essay is about, is one great example of a faulty theory with the context to make it clear why these things happen to good meaning and apparently intelligent types like Griffin.

Kind regards John

PS - I have 4 books by Griffin :-)

tangents, conclusions, motives

by tangents i meant addressing things like the reports of guns on all four flights and PFT's history, but as I was quoting AT&T operators Lorenzo and Gonzalez and Griffin had cited a PFT member as a credible source, it seemed appropriate to briefly address these things. Also, at the end my essay take a turn in an entirely new direction; presenting what i think are examples of real issues that urgently need to be addressed regarding 9/11, things i think truth activists and the general public should be aware of.

Critiquing DRG's methodology, sources, etc. is entirely within the main scope of what i wanted to do, for the reasons I outlined in my essay's intro and conclusion, and in the previous and other comments here. In short, there is not a credible case for claiming the calls were faked, but an uncritical reading of Griffin's essay might leave someone with the impression that there was, though it seems few here at 911blogger think there is good evidence for it, and promotion of this theory as if it were credible discredits the 9/11 truth movement, imho.

"leaving it devoid of speculation about your motives."

It seems you're saying that by documenting flaws in Griffin's methodology and sources, I've invited speculation about my motives? I don't understand why that would be the case, please elaborate. Also, what do you think are the possibilities for my motives?

FTR, my motives are truth and justice - but I don't ask anyone to believe or trust me; I'm inviting people to examine the arguments and evidence I've presented, and if my behavior is uncivil, it is also open to criticism.

Evidence

I think it's important to remember that there are many different types of people in the movement and that some are drawn to physical evidence, some are drawn to the much other evidence that Erik has noted.

While it is key that differently oriented people work together, it's also key that our evidence be solid, regardless of the type of evidence.

Aside from these two points, getting into the age-old discussion of "you must promote this and not this", typically does not really lead us anywhere beneficial. There is no "pick one", in general. There are different people with their own strengths and unique gifts to investigate the many different types of evidence in their own ways. Like the genome, the best way to survive is to cover all options, not just one.

If someone says "I say this to people, but not this," that is not a determination of what everyone else should say, merely is what one person does. What people choose to promote to the public on their own, or in events they host, is their own opinion.

In this thread, turning away from the TONS of information Erik has provided -- at a great deal of effort on his part -- to a discussion of strategy, is not necessarily helpful to understanding the body of evidence at hand.

I second that

I'm just a ordinary guy, no police squad, no prosecutor, no laywer, no judge, no full subpeona powered real investigating commission. I can be in error, the official account can't. And it is. With myriads of points. At least a cover-up, foreknowledge, intimidation and NIST flawed science IS proveable!

No one has done more

for 9-11 Truth than David Ray Griffin. And I do not believe he is "in error" in stating that the collapse of the buildings is the most readily PROVABLE falsehood in the OCT and indeed collapses the entire edifice of lies. That said, I agree that the fake phone call theory should be canned and am appreciative of this well-argued critique.

"error" is my opinion

"And I do not believe he is "in error" in stating that the collapse of the buildings is the most readily PROVABLE falsehood in the OCT and indeed collapses the entire edifice of lies."

Error is my opinion, and Griffin's statement is also an opinion, which he implicitly acknowledged in the way he framed his statement about this. Measuring which one is the best proof would be difficult, if not impossible, as these things are subjective.

My point is that the OCT is "definitively shown to be false" by any number of things, an incomplete list of which I cited in my conclusion. And I also think it's a tactical error to focus on any one particular area.

I'm glad we agree "the fake phone call theory should be canned," and glad you found my essay helpful.

Some facts:

9:59 a.m. September 11, 2001: Flight 93 Passenger Told of WTC Tower Collapse Contradicts Passenger Revolt Timing

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a959wtccollapsecall#a959w...

«According to Lyz Glick, as recounted in the book “Among the Heroes,” she is speaking to her husband Jeremy Glick on Flight 93 when he tells her that passengers have been hearing from other phone calls that planes are crashing into the World Trade Center. He asks her, “Are [the hijackers] going to blow this plane up?” Lyz replies that she doesn’t know, but tells him that it is true two planes have crashed into the World Trade Center. He asks her if they’re going to crash the plane into the World Trade Center. She replies, “No. They’re not going there.” He asks why, and she replies that one of the towers has just fallen. “They knocked it down.” The first World Trade Center tower collapses at 9:59 and is seen by millions on television. The book makes clear that this exchange takes place at “almost ten o’clock” —within a minute of the tower collapse. [Longman, 2002, pp. 147] This account contradicts the 9/11 Commission’s conclusion that the passenger assault on the cockpit begins at 9:58, because the tower collapse was definitely at 9:59. Only later in the same phone call does Jeremy Glick mention that passengers are still taking a vote on whether or not to attack the hijackers. He confers with others and tells Lyz that they’ve decided to do so, and then gets off the phone line»

I guess the conclusions of the "9 / 11 commission" are based on analysis of the Cockpit voice recorder of Flight 93, officially found.

Todd Beamer's Odd Phone Call and the Silent Crash of Flight 93:

http://shoestring911.blogspot.com/2007/10/todd-beamers-odd-phone-call-an...

« The first thing that was odd about this call is the simple fact that Beamer was able to talk to Jefferson continuously for 13 minutes. In her 2002 book, his wife Lisa Beamer revealed that Jefferson had informed her "it was a miracle that Todd's call hadn't been disconnected." The reason: "Because of the enormous number of calls that day, the GTE systems overloaded and lines were being disconnected all around her as she sat at the operator's station outside of Chicago, talking to Todd. [Jefferson] kept thinking, This call is going to get dropped! Yet Todd stayed connected ... all the way to the end." [5] Very fortunate indeed this was, because if the call had become disconnected there would have been no "Let's roll" slogan for the war on terror.»

«A further oddity was Todd Beamer's remarkable calmness, despite the catastrophic situation he was in. Jefferson recalled: "Todd, when he came to me, he was calm. ... [H]e stayed calm through the entire conversation." [6] In her 2006 book, Called, Jefferson wrote: "[H]is voice was devoid of any stress. In fact, he sounded so tranquil it made me begin to doubt the authenticity and urgency of his call." [7] She told Beamer's wife: "If I hadn't known it was a real hijacking, I'd have thought it was a crank call, because Todd was so rational and methodical about what he was doing."

«Perhaps the oddest aspect of the call is what happened after 9:58, when Todd Beamer put the phone down to join the passenger revolt against the hijackers. Jefferson has recalled: "After he said, 'Let's roll,' he left the phone, and I would assume that's at the point that they went to charge the cockpit. And I was still on the line and the plane took a dive, and by then, it just went silent. I held on until after the plane crashed--probably about 15 minutes longer and I never heard a crash--it just went silent because--I can't explain it. We didn't lose a connection because there's a different sound that you use. It's a squealing sound when you lose a connection. I never lost connection, but it just went silent." [18]

"Now how is this possible? Firstly, how could the call have remained connected after the plane crashed? According to the summary of passenger phone calls presented at the Moussaoui trial, Beamer's call lasted "3,925 seconds." [19] This would mean it did not end until 10:49 a.m., about three-quarters of an hour after Flight 93 supposedly crashed. And, secondly, how could there have been silence when the crash occurred?"

Everything about and coming from 93...

smells of fiction.

The entire story was designed to demonstrate a HEROIC response from brave Americans.
9/11 was a well designed PSY-OP through and through just as it continues today. Nothing was left to chance. The perps used everything at their disposal to manipulate a malleable populace.

I mostly agree

EDIT: I don't know that everything about it smells like fiction; it smells that it was possible to hijack this plane - any plane - after a summer of threat that involved warnings of preparations for hijackings by Al Qaeda and attacks on US cities w/ planes. And certainly the story has been exploited to sell the public on going to war.

"Nothing was left to chance." Certainly, the perps did everything possible to minimize the risk of exposure and to ensure that everything happened according to plan, the full details of which we don't yet know.

However, UA 93's takeoff was delayed for about 40 minutes; those behind 9/11 did not have perfect control over everything.

But, yes, the 9/11 story is a psyop, and myths have been made from it.

What's the explanation for the anomalies documented in the HC entry and Shoestring blog tit2 quoted above? I don't know; i'd like to know. It's strange, and a full investigation or truth and reconciliation commission is the best chance to find out.

However, I don't see this is evidence calls were faked, by itself or in conjunction with other documented anomalies. If people want to research and investigate, fine. But I hope they'll present the evidence, civilly discuss the range of possibilities, including the value of the evidence, and not go leaping to conclusions that can be used against the 9/11 truth movement, as so much misinformation and speculation already has been.

Pot - Kettle?

Erik,

You admonish Dr. Griffin for speculating while speculating.
"I have engaged in speculation; my purpose in doing so is to show that there are other possible - and more probable - explanations for some of the seemingly problematic elements in records related to the 9/11 calls."
You admit that there are seemingly (?) "problematic elements in records related to the 9/11 calls" that require you to speculate.

And how can you disregard this anomaly?
According to the summary of passenger phone calls presented at the Moussaoui trial, Beamer's call lasted "3,925 seconds." [19] This would mean it did not end until 10:49 a.m., about three-quarters of an hour after Flight 93 supposedly crashed. And, secondly, how could there have been silence when the crash occurred?

I agree that Dr. Griffin has not "made the case" but neither have you. The phone calls are questionable, perhaps by design. Is this more psy-ops like the conflicting disinformation about what happened at the Pentagon? It appears to be another trap to get us arguing endlessly and divide us into "camps".

Most troubling is that the article shifts to the unrelated topic of:
"Griffin is in error when he says the destructions of WTC 1, 2 and 7 are the “part of the official story [which] can be most definitively shown to be false.” "

"it's a tactical error to promote CD to the point where other stuff isn't being addressed, or even to put CD front and center."

I agree that other evidence should be addressed but I also agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Griffin, Richard Gage, Steven Jones, Neils Harrit, Kevin Ryan, David Chandler, Jon Cole, Tony Szamboti, Ron Brookman Bob McIlvaine, Manny Badillo and many others that the "Building What?" campaign should be front and center because it is the most compelling for most people.

The first round of adds got the TM it's first positive coverage on MSM and the efforts to shift the focus away from the "Building What?" campaign are counterproductive IMO.

I again encourage everyone to donate, and ask your friends to donate, to the Building What?" campaign.

I view this as the definitive

I view this as the definitive last word on DRG's cellphone fakery fakery.

Extremely good work!

Taken in conjunction with many of the 'facts' DRG presents in his last book 'Cognitive Infiltration' - like 'the hijackers are still alive' and 'no plane at the Pentagon' we are forced to wonder about the intentionality behind these glaringly careless assertions - from someone who is almost painfully verbose and detailed in his work.

it just doesn't compute for me - and leads me in the direction of intentionality.

I am embarrassed by your comment.

David Ray Griffin is one of the scholars who's presentations lead me to the truth. He may not have everything exactly right, but his intentions are clear. To imply otherwise is absolutely ludicrous.

The venom presented in the various comments about this article, and the familiar names who are spewing said venom, gives me a DejaVu. It smells a lot like the CIT venom.

You have failed to acknowledge DRG's numerous valuable contributions.

I want to expose the truth, but I am sick of the negativity.

Negativity

I see no need for people to be embarrassed by any of the comments, nor do I see (or smell?) venom or a pervasive "negativity".

People are working through a difficult situation here.

Most all of us laud David Griffin for his excellent presentations of the work and his willingness to speak out and organize and represent the movement. He has done a LOT, indeed, and I don't think any of the comments here are about the many positive contributions he has made, but nor do I think that they need to be. Erik has mentioned that also.

The comments here are about a topic that has frustrated many people for years. They are not spitting venom, they are speaking out. And blogger is generally very careful to keep limits on anyone who over steps the boundaries. The purpose of this essay is about correcting the body of evidence that the 9/11 movement puts out to the public. It's critique, mainly.

We are all human. But we are also in a movement of people saying that insiders working within the system were able to murder Americans -- that's why we've been targeted for infiltration and disruption, and we've had our share of it. So when people start wondering aloud if someone might be disingenuous, it's not that surprising.

And David himself made many assumptions, as well, that witnesses could have been lying or covering up for the official story since they worked for USA Today, or the Pentagon or whatever.

We are all human and sorting things out. Just hang in there.

Where's the venom?

And who are the familiar names "spewing" it?

This isn't the first logic-free, reactionary comment I've seen from you in response to well-argued criticism of a "leader".

Smearing people as "venom spewers" isn't going to cut it, Rob.

It's also kind of negative...

It doesn't matter what I say here.

You all know the truth about what I have said.

It isn't as if I have to convince you.

You know what you are doing.

I believe it hurts the cause.

That's my opinion.

If anyone wants to contact me outside of this group, you can email me at robwrinkle@gmail.com.

I am going to take a break.

It actually does matter what you say

It's part of the dialogue.

And I suspect that if you could back up what you're saying you would do so, instead of bailing.

The elephant in the room

Thx for the vote of confidence, John; apparently you missed the part where i said i think the real reason Griffin's fake calls theory is BS is cuz he's implicitly accepting that real planes were involved ; ).

To those who are voting John down for suggesting Griffin has intentionally presented a bogus theory as if it can be relied on as good evidence, I invite you to ponder the two paragraphs in the very first comment, which i quoted from my article, and check the source:

Griffin selectively quoted from John Hotard's statement; he took a couple sentences out of context and used them to make it seem Hotard's statement supports a conclusion opposite to what Hotard had explicitly stated in the email that Griffin quoted; "It is our contention that the seatback phones on Flight 77 were working because there is no entry in that aircraft’s records to indicate when the phones were disconnected."

It is a fact that Griffin did this.

WHY he did this, and why he did and didn't do other things I documented, I don't know, and I also don't see how it could be said that it wasn't intentional, or that it's not discrediting. Griffin, being a Professor Emeritus, must know this.

As I said, I'm interested in seeing if/how Griffin responds to my essay.

Do you actually believe David Ray Griffin is....

Do you actually believe that David Ray Griffin is intentionally trying to hurt the cause of 911 Truth? Yes or No.

Did I say that?

Do you dispute that Griffin selectively quoted from John Hotard's statement, in a way that made it appear Hotard's statement supported the idea that AAL 77's air phones weren't working, when in fact Hotard's statement supports the contention that they were working?

I already said I don't know WHY Griffin did this.

But it's clear that he did, and, imho, it's clear that it's discrediting, and it's also clear a Professor Emeritus should know better.

Perhaps you could email Prof. Griffin for comment; I just emailed him the link and let him know if he wishes to respond, it will be published as well.

let's be careful here

I agree with Robin that this is going too far. There are several places in this thread where people imply bad faith on DRG's part. I'm embarrassed to read this on this site.

I also want to raise an issue that has come up both in the article itself and in these comments, and this is the business about giving offence to the victims' families. I, and many of you here, have probably often been accused of giving offence to the victims' families by our position that their loved ones were not the victims of Islamic extremists. I counter the argument by saying the best way to respect the vicitms' families in the long run is to try to find out the truth about what happened. That is what DRG is trying to do. I assume it's what we're all trying to do--otherwise, our 9/11 "truth" movement had better pack it in. If the "fake phone call" theory is wrong (still in dispute, in my view), then we say so. But we don't accuse a colleague who has demonstrated his good faith many times, and has put his reputation on the line for the truth, of unnecessarily causing pain to the victims' families.

Would you care to comment on the content

of this post? No one has yet, and I'm really interested to see what people think, especially those who seem to indicate that DRG's integrity cannot be impugned.

I agree with ROBinDALLAS

This is also a bridge too far:
"we are forced to wonder about the intentionality behind these glaringly careless assertions"

Questioning DRG's intentions and therefore his integrity because of his views on the phone calls and other issues is inappropriate and counterproductive IMO.
Do you like to have your integrity questioned? Shall we do unto others . . . .

I am much more concerned about his endorsement of CIT an I hope he will reconsider his position.

This thread is counterproductive in that regard as it puts him on the defensive on another front.

I have worked closely with Dr. Griffin and we have disagreed on several issues. He can be accommodating if you present your case intelligently and tactfully. It is not a good idea at this time to complicate the issue of getting him to rescind his endorsement of CIT by confronting him on the issue of the phone calls.

"Do you like to have your integrity questioned?"

I'm sure no one does, but if someone's spreading bad information then it's understandable.

If someone doesn't trust David Ray Griffin, should they lie about it?

What do you make of the information contained in Section 3C?

following the truth wherever it leads

"the best way to respect the vicitms' families in the long run is to try to find out the truth about what happened."

Absolutely. And, if the calls were faked, this must be acknowledged. However, I don't see that anyone, including Griffin, who has made the most persuasive case for faked calls, has presented credible evidence the calls were faked, though there are some strange anomalies. 911SATYA, what leads you to conclude the faked calls theory may be right?

There is evidence that calls were possible, and happened: evidence indicates the air phone were working and repeaters could have ensured cell calls would connect. About a couple dozen people reported receiving phone calls. Call records show air phone calls being made. The faked calls theory is at best dubious, imho.

Promoting this dubious theory as evidence discredits the 9/11 truth movement, and it's compounded by the fact that it's offensive to the family members. It's true some family members will be offended by the idea that public officials lied about 9/11, or were complicit in it, but those who want to know the truth and see that justice is done for their loved ones and the nation will support the search for truth, no matter where it leads.

This is different from telling family members - based on a dubious theory - that the now dead family member who called them and said their plane had been hijacked was actually an operative w/ a voice-morphing device. Not only will this be offensive to them, it will be offensive to many members of the general public, who will see this as unnecessarily causing the victim's families pain, in order to promote a dubious theory - in addition to being a distraction from much better evidence that 9/11's a lie, and discrediting the truth movement by association with the dubious theory.

following the truth

Loose Nuke. First, on the issue of offending the family members. I don't find that you're always as clear as you should be about whether you're talking about a moral issue (we shouldn't offend the victims' families) or a strategic issue (it's strategically wrong to offend the families and the general public because it harms our movement) and I don't find you're always as clear as you should be about the relation of these issues to the truth. (It could be strategically unwise to discuss an issue, for example, even if what we are saying is true.) I would like you to be more clear about all this. (Examine the last sentence of the second paragraph of your article if you want to see what I'm talking about.)

Now to the issue of the phone calls themselves. Well, I haven't made a serious study of the issue and I'm glad you're doing it. If you're right, hopefully that will become clear through further discussion. (I'm surprised many people commenting in this thread aren't willing to wait for a DRG response.) I am NOT committed to the idea of faked phone calls and I don't question your right to carry out this research. Carry it out by all means. But I think it's a very bad idea to question the integrity of fellow researchers. If DRG has ""cherry picked" (choosing the evidence he likes and discarding what he doesn't like) then I would assume it's because he's been careless and I'd expect him to correct this in the future. But researchers regularly discuss and debate evidence (and methodology) without feeling the need to question each other's integrity. I think the tone of your article in unfortunate and unnecessary.

I agree with those who say no one, however prominent, is immune to criticism. Fine, go for it. But I think DRG has earned, through his work and his sacrifice for the movement, the right to be have his work approached with a hermeneutic of trust, just as the FBI has earned the right to have all its works related to the crime of 9/11 (that's right, all of them) approached with a hermeneutic of suspicion. The Agency has collaborated repeatedly in murder and in state crimes against democracy.

You want to know why I do not consider the "fake phone calls" theory discredited. Well, as you've admitted, there are anomalies in what we find when we study these phone calls; and, as you also admit, your critique includes speculation (e.g., "self-powered cell phone repeaters may have been placed on board the planes". Sure, they may have been. Were they?) You use at least one straw man argument. "FBI statements and records should not be accepted at face value, but this doesn't mean that any particular FBI statement or record is false. Not all FBI agents, supervisors and policy makers are dishonest..." True, but where does DRG make the logical error you are discussing? He would say, as I would, that all FBI materials on this issues should be approached with suspicion; but that's not the same as saying every claim they make is false. Furthermore, I am not yet convinced cell phone calls of any duration were possible at the altitude claimed for some of the calls. Maybe all the high and lengthy calls were actually airfone calls and mabye airfones were in the planes...or maybe not. I'm afraid I don't think the argument is over. You question the relevance of Dewdney's research because it was done in Canada. Good start, but why don't you push further and see if, in fact, the distribution, etc. of towers were substantially different around London, Ontario and in the region at issue on 9/11. That would be interesting research.

Moving on, I'd like to say that for some years now I've assumed we have two major possibilities:

(1) the calls were fake and there were probably no hijackers on the planes. In this case, the planes were run as drones, Aidan has argued would have been possible in 2001.
(2) there were hijackers, and the phone calls were probably genuine, and the hijackers piloted the planes into their targets.

Now these aren't the only two possibilities (for example, you could have fake calls but still have hijackers, etc.) but they have seemed to me the leading possibilities. If you are right, as you may well be, about the calls being genuine, then we have a very interesting situation. I think in this case it is a distinct possibility, as you suggest, that the hijackers had guns, not just boxcutters, and I agree that it is highly unlikely they were able to get all these guns through security, so that there is some variety of inside job involved here--in other words, we have hijackers but we still have MIHOP, not LIHOP. And we're faced with the fascinating question as to who these hijackers might have been. I have seen nothing that convinces me the famous 19 Arabs were the hijackers. The hijackers would have been professionals, certainly, with piloting skills beyond the pathetic Hani Hanjours of the world; yet, not ordinary professionals since they intended to die for this mission. Who were they? When I hear of passengers saying they were of Mid-Eastern appearance I'm afraid I can't make much of this. Even if they're from the Mid-East, where, precisely? And why were they willing to be kamikaze pilots if they weren't Muslim extremists? Many interesting questions. But, in the meantime, I hope we can continue to make our discussions in the movement as mutually respectful as possible.

A. K. Dewdney...

One thing I know about A. K. Dewdney's voice morphing nonsense is that I use the same software plugin as he was shown using in Ventura's show almost every day. Its called "iZotope Ozone" and it CANNOT engineer a voice to sound like someone. The best it can do is make a voice similar to what you would find with the "Dragon Naturally Speaking" software.

I have tremendous respect and admiration for DRG

I have tremendous respect and admiration for David Ray Griffin.
I hold him in high regard.

Response to YT - Do you like to have your integrity questioned?

I recently questioned the intentions of a prominent member of the Truth Movement. I was wrong and I apologized.

It made me realize that we must not let our differences divide us. When passionate people think for themselves there will inevitably be passionate disagreements.

There is no need to lie about our feelings but we should avoid questioning intent while being free to criticize positions on theories.

I read Erik's critique and I cannot say for sure if the calls were faked or not. I would have to read Dr. Griffins response and all the related information to make a judgment. I agree that it is very speculative and should not be at the forefront but I don't think it is on the order of the flyover theory by any means.

Now that Richard Gage has rescinded his endorsement of CIT/NSA I am redirecting my focus back to WTC 7 and the Building What? campaign. I don't consider this issue worth the time to analyze adequately as it is inconclusive at best.

I tend to stay away from strained fault finding.

I like to get facts and information.
While I am glad that people try to ascertain facts, I find it unsettling to hear so much criticism by a small bunch about a fellow group member.

It kind of reminds me of a social gathering. Upon wondering the room, I happen upon a small group on the sofa discussing someone else and critically evaluating that person's attributes...
"How a person should be"
"How a person should act"
"How a person should state things"
"What conclusions a person should have"
"What ideas and concepts are appropriate for a person"
"What things that a person should hold as 'important'"
"What a person should think"
"What opinions a person should form"

Spouses sometimes do this "how you should be" to each other.
...I guess that I could get more of this if I became a polygamist and got a few extra wives.
One wife is enough.

nitpicking and debunking distractions

These comments illustrate our focus here at blogger.. The volume, more than 50 on a post like this, while so few (4 or 5) comments for these (what I consider more important) articles: The Terrorizing Truth About 9/11: It's Not A Matter of Keeping Secrets, But Maintaining a Grand Myth and Black 9/11: A Walk on the Dark Side show our interest in being so concerned for being right or politically correct on what to communicate or what not to communicate.. that the larger picture is being missed.. and lost to anyone coming to 911blogger to learn about the events of September 11, 2001.

Critique of David Ray

Critique of David Ray Griffin’s 9/11 Fake Calls Theory by Erik Larson appears to be a critique of the man rather than the subject. There is an almost gleeful tone to some comments about the thought of showing David Ray Griffin is in error.

Twice in the first three paragraphs the tired argument is made that David Ray Griffin’s views are "offensive to family members". This sentiment is usually reserved for those that attack the 9/11 Truth Movement.

Even if some might not admit it, David Ray Griffin has done more than anyone else, with exception of the Loose Change films, to open peoples eyes to the fact that the official conspiracy theory is nonsense.

I think that its good to

I think that its good to alienate people from the movement even if they have credible research under their belt if what they use their cache to do is spread speculative theories.if DRG gets caught doing sloppy research we should call him on it and feel good about it. As a trained philosopher like DRG I find it hard to understand how he could push this claim in good faith. People who are upset with the focus on evidence should look at these developments in a positive light: the movement is growing up and going through a process of change and internal reorganization. We can't advance loyalty as a value, we need to make it clear that we have a cutting edge and only care about the effectiveness of the truth movement itself. Without making an accusation let me just tell u disinformation is real. What about the early videos like painful deceptions. I was tricked because years later that dude went full blown anti Semitic and all the people I showed his video to that checked up on him probably thought I was nuts.

stop voting me down

We need to push 911 truth in a rational and coherent way. We are not a cult and we are stronger when we focus on clear evidence. When individuals fall short of the standard of rigor we require they must be challenged. 911 truth requires more intellectual discipline than we have used in the past, now is the time to increase the power of our message. Just because someone wrote a helpful piece doesn't get them a free ride with good standing for all time. Are you saying he doesn't deserve to be held accountable for allowing himself to be associated with speculative research? The movement needs standards of rigor that reflect the importance of our cause.

I agree and you deserve upvotes

and I think most here agree with you. I think some of the more logical thinking folks, likely to up vote you, are sleeping in for saturday. People trying to act as though folks here are happy about DRG's errors are coming from a sideways angle. It's completely upsetting that DRG keeps goofing up like this and endorsing bunk ideas and theories. He received support from everyone here critiquing him now for years. People getting defensive of him as a person are not getting the specific concerns raised here. It can't be framed as 'we don't like DRG.' Many of us invested so much time and money into his work. Now he's dropping a big ball and deserves to be called out on it. There is nothing wrong with this. There is something wrong and weird about folks who insist we just gloss over gross errors and offensive claims which are hurtful to the truth outing.

"Without making an accusation...

Who do you think you are fooling partner ?? Everybody here knows about Cointelpro etc., the main purpose of which is to create suspicion, mistrust, chaos. So why are you bringing up "disinformation" in relation to Griffin and disingenuously claiming it´s not an accusation. Tell you what pal, why don't you sit down and write, say, 7 books about the 9-11 False Flag and the rest of us can see if we spot any errors in your research.

Rah Rah Rah

I think he was talking about Eric Hufschmid. You know, the one who said that the Loose Change guys were all jews and thus controlled by the dreaded global zionist network! ::shudder::

The guy is a lunatic. See for yourself:
http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html

As for Griffin, if he made mistakes regarding his research, he should correct them, no? If he selectively used testimony to advance a pet theory, he should be called on that, no? If he purposefully shits in the punch bowl, he should be taken to task on that, no?

I really dont care how many books he has written about 9/11. IMO only 2 or 3 were really readable anyway ;)
In any case, it doesnt absolve him from criticism just as it shouldnt shield him from applause when he gets something right. I am very interested to see how he will respond to this essay by Erik, but Im not going to hold my breath waiting for an admission of a mistake in doing a disservice to 9/11 truth.

In my opinion, he's forever lost credibility. I can't take anything he says at face value due to a history of supporting and publishing wildly speculative theories as the 'high priest of 9/11 truth' and citing dubious "researchers" while supposedly representing ME.

Thanks Erik

Excellent work. I find the notion of sustained cell phone calls at cruise speed/altitude improbable, however, the whole point is that the overwhelming majority of calls made on 9/11 weren't cellphone calls in the first place. This, too, tells you something about the feasibility of sustained, high altitude, cruise speed cellphone calls from commercial aircraft.

Further, much of DRG's work relies on falsification, but falsification leads to a state of uncertainty and is to be disfavored over verification, that is, direct evidence of some kind for fabrication of cellphone calls. Evidence of cellphone use isn't evidence of phone call fakery; forensic traces would be, and there are none. It now seems DRG's falsification has been falsified, and once again it appears falsification is an unreliable road to travel, when augmented with 'God of the gaps'-type reasoning.

Who were the hijackers?

DRG is in this area wrong - nevertheless his whole contribution to the 911-movement is, for me, important - at least.

"loose nuke" has proved, that most probable there were "real" passengers on board, due to the very personal informations provided in the phone calls to family members (for example safe-code or "Mark Bingham"). Interestingly 10 days before 911, there was an exercise with a "hijacked" plane and "someone calling from a cell phone." http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a083101dotexercise#a08310...

Based on the information from the calls, the horizont opens for new investigations, which "loose nuke" is already putting on the table : Who were the hijackers?

Strangly there is not enough evidence, to confirm the official account about the idenity of the hijackers - as this article reports:
There is no evidence that Muslims committed the crime of 9/11
By Elias Davidsson, 10 January 2008
http://www.aldeilis.net/english/attachments/1614_noevidence.pdf

Voice morphology

Though allegedly possible (I suppose -- I can't begin to imagine the variables and difficulties involved in faking an-immediately-before-death-phone-call-to-a-loved-one, and I have no expertise in advanced audio), VM strikes me as grossly implausible. In this case I think Occam's razor is clear cut -- it would have been extremely foolhardly to even attempt such a scheme.

In fact, it would seem far easier to assemble a commando team of pseudo-hijackers who resemble Arabs and tie it up with some war games-gone-live (which were, in fact, occurring at that exact date and time), though that scenario is also fraught with risk. Perhaps not as risky as relying on a bunch of coke-heads who can't fly a Cessna who may bungle the whole operation or get pinched by customs, and who leave no CCTV footage, but you get the point.

I remember posting the article about V. morphing featuring Colon Powell on GNN almost ten years ago. Partly just as a lark or "what if?" -- like "what if Alien Abduction were real?". I certainly hope I wasn't responsible for the spreading of this theory to Dylan A and Loose Change 1 and in turn, DRG!

Because again, it seems wildly implausible. I attended a lecture by DRG in Vancouver in 2007 (?) and challenged him on this point on the cue cards they handed out for questions; unfortunately my constructively critical question was rejected in favor of non-confrontational stuff.

DRG has always struck me as one of our best people -- his early stuff, especially, is incredibly thorough, detailed and damaging to the official story. I was very disappointed to see him veer off into this voice morphing and flyover conjecture. I hope he will respond to this essay and at least consider the idea that he may have been in error.

This may sound simplistic, but I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks to achieving a real break through amongst "prominent leftist intellectuals" is ego. When you've spent the last five years giving lectures on blowback you might be more reticent to pull a Hani Hanjour and do a 180. Similarly, many 911 truth activists are loathe to give up a theory they have passionately promoted. I myself have remained on the fence about the Pentagon until very recently, when Snowcrash convinced me that a large-aircraft-hit was more probable than not. This is one of the reasons I respect the Loose Change Crew -- they have not stuck doggedly to a theory but have attempted to refine their arguments over time, and indeed eliminate "theory" altogether.

Having said all this, I agree with 911satya that to insinuate sinister intent on behalf of DRG is inappropriate and unfair. At the very least we should allow DRG to respond. Richard Wolff, one of the world's experts on COINTELPRO, whom I recently interviewed, basically said that the worst thing we can do is start labeling one another "agents". From there it's all downhill. We should focus on the evidence and achieve consensus that way.

>SNIP<

Fetzer: essay is "fake attack", 911blogger gone to "dark side"

Fake attack on David Ray Griffin's studies of the fake phone calls . . .
Posted by James H. Fetzer on February 12, 2011 at 6:00pm

"More proof that 911blogger has gone over to the dark side. Even the FBI admitted that the alleged phone calls from Barbara Olson to her husband, Ted, had not occurred, even though Ted, our former Solicitor General, had claimed she called him twice and gave three different versions of how it happened, since cell phones don't work at that speed and altitude and Boeing 757s were not equipped with air phones. If the Solicitor General, who represents the administration before the Supreme Court, will lie about 9/11, we know that no one associated with the government can be trusted. Nor can 911Blogger.com, alas!"
http://www.webcitation.org/5wTmFMl8u

If anyone here is unfamiliar with Fetzer, a person who has consistently endorsed hoaxes while attempting to undermine serious research, read more here:
http://visibility911.com/kevinryan/2011/01/why-robert-parry-is-right-abo...
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/patriots_question/index.html

Fetzer does DRG no favors: He suggests that, because it has published my critique, this is "more proof that 911blogger has gone over to the dark side" . He says "Boeing 757s were not equipped with air phones," a claim that Griffin has researched and rejected, based on evidence. He says that Ted Olson lied, but when Olson was first interviewed by the FBI on 9/11/01 he said that he didn't know if Barbara was calling him on a cell or air phone; it's a misrepresentation of the record to call Olson's confusion about this in subsequent interviews evidence that he lied. And it's a logical fallacy to say that - even if Olson lied - that "no one associated with the government can be trusted." No one should trust the government - but that doesn't mean the government always lies.

Fetzer's been cited in a number of Griffin's books, and Griffin has appeared on his radio show - long after Fetzer was rejected by nearly every truth activist after disrupting and discrediting Scholars for 9/11 Truth by promoting space beams and TV fakery. Griffin has always been ambivalent about discrediting claims and the people who promote them:

"Griffin, on the other hand, is skeptical of talk about disinformation and infiltrators. 'I really haven’t had any strong suspicions about anybody,” he said. “Even if there is some truth to it, I don’t think it’s a very important concern.'" (The Wire 3/29/06) http://web.archive.org/web/20060809012649/http://www.wirenh.com/Features...

No one should take anything this man says...

Seriously.

and we should consider the

and we should consider the fact that he is working to support DRG's theories.

what does that tell us? who else has Fetzer supported? Cartoon planes Morgan Reynolds. Space beams Judy Woods. The JOOS-did-it Kevin Barrett. Video fakery Nico Haupt.

and now cellphone fakery DRG.

think about that for a minute

Indeed bad news

raises my skepticism even more.

DRG will not appear on the Visibility911 Podcast?

I asked DRG if he would come on the show last year he declined because he alluded that the line of questioning might be uncomfortable?

We at the Visibility911 Podcast have a very high standard of production and content, far superior to Barrett, Fetzer or the majority of other Podcasts, so why did DRG refuse? I suggested we could talk about the "fake phone call controversy"....

Anyway I just thought at this stage it would be prudent to bring it up. Michael Wolsey and I had had an arguments with Griffin in the past, so maybe that was what it was all about?

Regards John

PS - If Fetzer's writing an essay backing Griffin it appears he is now sunk...I hope Fetzer realizes this....oh the irony of the flee's biting the host, sorry it's just a cheap shot..but hey it's true. Griffin is a great man and has done a lot of great work but his "big tent" was being held up by him as it's only truly strong support left and it's now caving in finally.

Griffin on Visibility 9-11

Hey John-

This is interesting and something I was not aware of. The fact is, I am not sure DRG is welcome on the show anymore and I am not surprised to find out he declined your invitation. He and I had a phone conversation that, well, lets just say it did not go well.

The DRG mess is something that I personally have struggled with. I came into the movement right before the publication of The New Pearl Harbor. Not many have been bigger supporters of DRG and his work, especially in the beginning. I had interviewed DRG several times, both on my podcast and on the American Freedom Network when I used to do radio shows there. I helped DRG to sell many books. We didn't have a whole lot to work with at the time and DRG's entrance onto the scene was very welcomed. Due to DRG's writings and films like In Plane Sight, which were early influences on me and our group in Colorado, I bought the whole no plane at the Pentagon theory....at least for a short time. When I became aware of the dishonesty present in these theories, I and our group distanced ourselves from what we considered to be bad information. I know for a fact that folks contacted DRG about his staunch stance that no plane hit the Pentagon. DRG has been exposed to the good info, yet he, for whatever reason, refused to amend his rhetoric. He continued to promote no plane theories and also began to promote the fake phone call theory. The kicker for us was when he went on the CBC 911 special and said something to the effect that WE, meaning the 911 truth movement, KNOW that AA77 did not hit the Pentagon. Obviously, this was not true and most prominent 9-11 researchers and activists had rejected these dishonest theories. DRG followed his no plane assertion up with his foolish endorsement of CIT. Despite my early and enthusiastic support of DRG in the past, I was personally not willing to give him a free pass to promote BS based on his good work. I understand all too well that this is the kind of thing that hurts, not helps our movement.

Many of you may remember the multiple 9-11 events on Colorado Public Television, formerly known as KBDI, Channel 12 in Denver. It started with multiple showings of 9-11 Press for Truth, progressed to Richards lecture, 9-11 Blueprint for Truth, and then the latest was multiple showings of Loose Change. There was talk over at CPT about bringing DRG in to the studio for the Loose Change showing like they did with the producers of Press for Truth and Blueprint for Truth. Keep in mind that Shari Bernson of CPT took A LOT of heat from the board at the station for these showings. Debunkers flooded her and the board at the station with reasons why they should not be showing any more 9-11 films and why we are all bonkers. For a while, I thought this had worked and I didn't think they would be showing any more 9-11 films. I believe it was only the tenacity of Shari Bernson to bring this info to the public that made the showing of LC possible and her credibility needed to be protected. If DRG had been allowed on air to represent the 9-11 movement, the debunkers would have had a hay day with that and the station would have lost valuable credibility. I informed the station that this probably was not the best idea because of DRG's promotion of junk theories and his endorsement of CIT. The station agreed and dropped DRG from the list of possible in studio guests. I simply asked the question, isn't there a better choice? The answer was, yes of course, and I am glad to say that Kevin Ryan came to town for the event and represented us all very well.

During our conversation on the phone mentioned above, I confronted DRG on his no plane theories and endorsement of CIT. He was unapologetic and basically stood his ground. Eventually, DRG's insistence on promoting bad information cost him an appearance on CPT as the station rejected him on this basis and thanked me for making them aware.

So yea, it's no big surprise that DRG rejected your invitation to come on the show John. I think I am probably on his shit list and am likely to remain there (:

With that said, I love DRG and all his valuable contributions to the movement, but couldn't disagree more with him on the disinformation and the gaining and keeping of credibility. Richard Gage and Peter Dale Scott have both gained back some of the credibility they had lost with their endorsements of CIT and I urge DRG to take that step as well and admit he is wrong about some of what he has promoted and endorsed.

Michael

Unfortunately

this does not prove no cell phone calls were made that day for reasons set out in the essay. Keep trying though, because if you are one day successful it will prove something.

the comment Frank replied to

advocated that people attempt to use cell phones in flight, as an 'experiment.'

This comment has been removed as it violates 911blogger rules: "Do not post material that promotes ... criminal actions."
http://911blogger.com/rules

FAA and FCC regulations both currently prohibit use of cell phones in flight:
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2091.21-1B...

The actual risk to safety/communications is unclear as it hasn't been thoroughly tested, but it is still prohibited:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phones_on_aircraft

In any case, as Frank said, cell phones working or not proves nothing about the calls made from UAL 93 - most of which were made by air phones, anyway, as I provided evidence for in my essay, along with studies and reports showing that cell phones do work from air planes in some circumstances.

My opinion

This article made me doubt the phone calls being fake. The first movie that got me aware of 9/11 was Loose change 4 years ago, so I had been suspect of the calls before. I'm afraid that conceding the phone calls are real is would make the OCT true in many people's opinion, if not a whole lot harder to prove a conspiracy. Is there any plausible scenario how the hijackers could have been on the plane until the very last moment and it still be a conspiracy? We know phone calls were might right up till the end. Maybe that is why DRG is desperate to prove the calls are fake, because the calls proves they were suicide hijackers on the planes till the very end, no operation northwoods plane switch etc, is conceding a huge amount of evidence for the OCT.

One of the most striking pieces of evidence was the combination code left on the voicemail, unless the FBI agent fabricated this upon instruction by a superior (I mean anything is possible knowing that Ive heard the fbi trying to intimidate any witnesses who say the black boxes were found), then this proves the calls were real......anyways the question is If the phone calls are real and there were suicide hijackers on the planes till the end can anyone come up with a scenario on how that is possible while still being a conspiracy? I'm not saying its not, but those calls are a huge amount of evidence for the OCT. I'm pretty lost and confused about all this after reading this article.

Disagree.

Billybipbip,

I agree with you that Larson's article makes it hard to claim the calls were faked. It is a very persuasive article. But I don't think this is such a big obstacle to falsifying the OCT. Even if hijackers were on the planes, it is far from clear they were in control of those planes for the entire flights, or much beyond the point of hijacking. The problem with disproving the OCT is not that there is too little evidence but rather too MUCH. It was never necessary to posit the calls were faked. The temptation was natural because, other than those calls, there is no credible evidence the hijackers were even on the planes, and we know in any case--or can reasonably infer--that they did not control the planes throughout their flights: the plotters who gave the orders to wire the buildings were not about to allow terrorists to maybe decide at the last minute to ram an airliner into the Indian Point nuclear reactor, causing potentially millions of deaths. If we did not have overwhelming evidence of WTC CD, I would agree with you that the revelation that the calls were real would pose a significant problem for 911 skeptics. But given the WTC CD evidence, conceding the calls were real really doesn't change much in terms of proving the falsity of the OCT. You still have tons of evidence the hijackers were incapable of flying the planes to their targets; and evidence they were not even Islamic jihadists.

Unfortunately

The landscape of cellular technology has changed changed... literally, so experiments now do not carry the same weight as experiments done at the time Dewdney performed them. It's essential experiments are performed in an environment resembling 9/11, and that may be impossible to replicate now.

Nevertheless, I agree with you; and in my opinion, 9/11 confirms the position that cell phone calls from commercial airliners at cruise speeds and altitudes are improbable: by far, the calls were made from airfones, and not from cell phones, as inaccurate press reports and witness interviews suggest.

Justin-John-Vic

Time to boot off the CIT sympathizers from 911blogger. We're egalitarian right...let's put that up to a vote if you will.

 

 

 

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Annoymouse's picture

Thanks very much for your intro saying that it is. . .

...."Interesting that they waited until now that DRG's health has been in decline to launch this attack on him."

They are really tipping their hand over there at 911blogger by going after DRG in this manner, at this time when he is still recovering from a stroke and aphasia. How cowardly. I’d post something along these lines there if I had not gotten booted for challenging John Bursil in the recent “Dr Frank Legge on Visibility 9-11…” thread, and implying that Bursil was a Sunstein agent. Full story and thread are at the site of willyloman (who recommended your wtcdemolition site). See here
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/wikileaks™-goes-lihop-and-controlled-opposition-prison-planet-eats-it-up/#comment-23906

I see that 911satya (who I think is Graeme MacQueen) has posted the following in the comments to the DRG hit-piece, so at least someone is defending DRG on 911blogger.

“let's be careful here
I agree with Robin that this is going too far. There are several places in this thread where people imply bad faith on DRG's part. I'm embarrassed to read this on this site.
I also want to raise an issue that has come up both in the article itself and in these comments, and this is the business about giving offence to the victims' families. I, and many of you here, have probably often been accused of giving offence to the victims' families by our position that their loved ones were not the victims of Islamic extremists. I counter the argument by saying the best way to respect the vicitms' families in the long run is to try to find out the truth about what happened. That is what DRG is trying to do. I assume it's what we're all trying to do--otherwise, our 9/11 "truth" movement had better pack it in. If the "fake phone call" theory is wrong (still in dispute, in my view), then we say so. But we don't accuse a colleague who has demonstrated his good faith many times, and has put his reputation on the line for the truth, of unnecessarily causing pain to the victims' families.
Submitted by 911SATYA on Fri, 02/11/2011 - 11:12pm.”

I did not want to be an annonymouse here but I do not see how one can register and log in. Can someone advise?

[to register, please send an email to rt@wtcdemolition.com with your desired user name and I'll set it up, thanks! -gReT]

gretavo's picture

yes...

911satya is also to my knowledge Graeme MacQueen, and it was great to see him stick up for DRG. I think it's pretty clear that the anti-DRG contingent at blogger is pretty much the same as the truthaction.org clique (same as 911truthnews). They are:

YT
Victronix
John Albanese
Zombie Bill Hicks
Jon Gold
John Bursill
Loose Nuke
Danse

YT in particular has also been known to post on various sites pretending to be different people so some of other users Vulich perhaps) could also be him.

gretavo's picture

that said...

I'll repeat that voice morphing is not necessarily the best explanation for the alleged phone calls. In fact, it's ironic that VM is in fact one of DRG's weakest areas. It always seemed to me in reading his books that he was unwilling to come out and say that the people who claim to have received these calls could simply be lying! There are no recordings of any of the alleged phone calls, just peoples' claims that they received them. In most cases these are people who would have ended up receiving a victim compensation fund payout of, on average, $2 million. Is it not possible that people willing to go along with this ruse could have been recruited before 9/11? Of course it is. People have killed for far less money. $2 million to pretend that your loved one was killed by Islamic extremists, which you could justify to yourself as being ultimately for the "good cause" of launching necessary wars against terrorists (if you even needed to justify it to yourself) is not that hard to believe. So the LIHOPpers will always fall back on "it offends the victims' families" because they know full well some of those families are, most likely like themselves, in on the crime and/or its cover-up. Isn't it interesting that 9/11 was the first time the government decided to create a victim compensation fund? Isn't it interesting that this fund was not given any guidelines on how to disburse the money, simply giving away that authority to a well-connected lawyer in private practice, Kenneth Fineberg? Isn't it interesting that the rationale used was that if they didn't offer the victims' families money then they could not get them to agree not to sue the airlines which would then go out of business? Isn't it interesting that essentially hidden in the legislation was protection not only for the airlines but for 'anyone with a property interest in the World Trade Center?'

Annoymouse's picture

interesting and telling that. . .

. . .back in october, when DRG posted on 911Blogger “An Account of My Recent Illness(es)” (see http://911blogger.com/news/2010-10-07/david-ray-griffin-account-my-recen...), no one on your anti-DRG contingent list even bothered to send him a “get well soon.”

In the comments to the current 911Blogger hitpiece on DRG, Graeme MacQueen added, “I think DRG has earned, through his work and his sacrifice for the movement, the right to...have his work approached with a hermeneutic of trust, just as the FBI has earned the right to have all its works related to the crime of 9/11 (that's right, all of them) approached with a hermeneutic of suspicion. . .
You want to know why I do not consider the ‘fake phone calls’ theory discredited. Well, as you've [Loose Nuke] admitted, there are anomalies in what we find when we study these phone calls; and, as you also admit, your critique includes speculation (e.g., "self-powered cell phone repeaters may have been placed on board the planes". Sure, they may have been. Were they?) You use at least one straw man argument. ‘FBI statements and records should not be accepted at face value, but this doesn't mean that any particular FBI statement or record is false. Not all FBI agents, supervisors and policy makers are dishonest...’ True, but where does DRG make the logical error you are discussing? He would say, as I would, that all FBI materials on this issues should be approached with suspicion; but that's not the same as saying every claim they make is false. Furthermore, I am not yet convinced cell phone calls of any duration were possible at the altitude claimed for some of the calls. Maybe all the high and lengthy calls were actually airfone calls and mabye airfones were in the planes...or maybe not. I'm afraid I don't think the argument is over. . .
If you are right, as you may well be, about the calls being genuine, then . . . we have hijackers but we still have MIHOP, not LIHOP. And we're faced with the fascinating question as to who these hijackers might have been. I have seen nothing that convinces me the famous 19 Arabs were the hijackers. . .
Submitted by 911SATYA on Sat, 02/12/2011 - 8:25pm"

jameson's picture

so who is kdub supposed to be?

I mean, apart from another illiterate DJ...maybe TA regular Brian 'TrueBeleaguer' Good?

gretavo's picture

hi Dennis, were you able to log in?

If so, welcome!

gretavo's picture

Erik Larson says...

"One of my major points, as I've said, is that there's evidence the calls happened, and there isn't credible evidence they didn't. Therefore, claiming otherwise is counterproductive and discrediting. "

Notice he doesn't say "credible evidence the calls happened", just "evidence the calls happened". No in fact there are claims that the calls happened, and they are not credible because they allege an impossibility.

It's as if someone were to say "There is evidence, however lacking in credibility, that aliens have visited earth. There is, however, no credible evidence that they have not, ergo we should not assert that the claims of their having visited are highly suspect." After all, where is the credible evidence that aliens have never visited earth? Anyone?

Annoymouse's picture

Well said.

Well said.

gretavo's picture

what do fake truthers do when they are failing?

Call in Jim Fetzer!

"Hey Jim, truthaction clique here. We got CIT good but DRG is proving a bit harder to discredit in people's eyes. Can you maybe write an essay supporting him so that the rest of us can jump up and down and say 'See, see? If Fetzer supports DRG, then DRG must be disinfo!'? Thanks, pal!"

Oh, and it looks like the TA clique has now (finally) abandoned Luke Rudkowski. Apparently he posed for pics with David Icke. Of course this means they're only now catching up with WTCD which first raised red flags when Luke made it clear he was aligning himself with Alex Jones and when he made common cause with that gun-toting tax evader from New Hampshire... See, back then they were playing along with anything and everything that made us look like idiots. Now they realize that if they are to have any credibility to use to destroy the real truth movement they will have to criticize not just the blatant fakes like Fetzer and Haupt but also the subtle fakes like Rudkowski.

Remember their goal and everything will make sense--go back and rehabilitate as much of the OCT as possible (genuine hijackings of genuine flights) in preparation for a limited hangout regarding the undeniable case of the WTC demolition, probably involving brown-skinned terrorists planting bombs. These are the real Nazis, folks--always have been, always will.

casseia's picture

Kevin Ryan Rebuts, Takes Exception to "Intentionality" Crap

Comment on Larson critique

Although I do not feel that the question of faked phone calls is worthy of much attention, I can say that this critique is not convincing. For a number of reasons, including Larson’s many speculations and his repeated references to the “911Myths” and the JREF chat room as credible sources, this series of criticisms falls short of its apparent goal.
Larson first claims that Griffin’s statements on the issue constitute a theory. But this is not a theory, it is a hypothesis, and Larson later clarifies that in his conclusions.

Unfortunately, although there have in the past been reasons to suspect that there was something wrong with the phone calls from the planes, this critique comes across as a statement that there never was any good reason to question this portion of the official story and that anyone who thought so is either not too bright or is an intentional troublemaker. The truth is that, due to the withholding of information and the release of contradictory information by official sources, speculative hypotheses have been considered by many 9/11 investigators to explain some of the contradictions in the official story.

It’s difficult to understand whose claims are being represented throughout this critique. But we are able to focus on the four points, which apparently were claims made by those criticizing Griffin, that Griffin used to outline his response and that Larson now uses to outline his response to the response. Here’s my take as an observer.

1. Frankly, this response to a response is a useless discussion based on a weak criticism. We should all be able to agree that what the FBI has or has not admitted is not terribly important considering that the FBI as an organization is deeply implicated in the cover-up of the crimes of 9/11. If that fact is not evident, I’d be happy to write it up.

2. This section gives one good example of where media representatives might have been mistaken (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). However, several paragraphs are devoted to Deena Burnett’s calls without any mention of the interesting fact that a 9/11 Commission document says she “threw away” her handwritten notes (why would she destroy the last memories of her husband?) and therefore the entire record is now built on secondary evidence. http://media.nara.gov/9-11/MFR/t-0148-911MFR-00260.pdf And again, as a long string of evidence indicates, the FBI is clearly dirty with regard to 9/11. Part of this critique is based on an implication that all 9/11 Commission records, and all pertinent records, have been made available to the public. Other than that, it quickly becomes a circuitous he-said-she-said string that makes it difficult to understand how anyone could use this reasoning as support for any position.

3. Larson uses a quote from an AA spokesperson, and some other ill-defined documents, to imply that AA 757s might not have airfones now, but they might have had airfones before 9/11. In contradiction to Larson’s own argument, the spokesperson (Kinder) stated that all the Flight 77 calls were from cell phones. This argument, involving suggestions that Kinder didn’t really know what he was talking about, is also not convincing.

4. Ted Olson is not a “sergeant” (even “911Myths” points that out) but Larson uses an FBI memo about a wife making a collect call to her sergeant husband as evidence that it is “obvious the female passenger’ is Barbara Olson.” That is not obvious at all, and it makes the remaining article, with repeated claims of Griffin’s “logical fallacies,” much less than believable.

Larson then goes on to explain that – “There is no credible basis for claiming the 9/11 calls were faked.” However, Larson admits that he has engaged in speculation in this critique as a means to counter Griffin’s admitted speculations. In fact, this critique is largely speculative. Here are some examples that make Larson sound like he is reaching a bit too far for evidence to support his own unspoken conclusions.

• “DOJ might have its own system for recording, logging and tracking calls received…”
• “Second, self-powered cell phone repeaters may have been placed on board the planes to ensure that calls would reliably connect.”
• “While possible, it seems unlikely that a commercial airline pilot would find the deactivation of seatback phones… to be such a significant event…”
• “…it’s also possible the Commission is correct, and these reports were simply mistaken.”
• “The explanation may simply be the FBI didn’t get the billing/other records from OSPS and DOJ, and didn’t ask AT&T/DOJ for an explanation,…”
• “It may be there is something more here, but it’s also possible the Commission is correct…”
• “…I had suggested this may have been the reason for the direct call.”
• “…the direct call may have been connected by another operator, or Lorenzo/Gonzalez may not have wanted to admit doing this,…”
• “It may be that Kinder gave a quick reply he believed was correct based on his personal knowledge…”
• “It may also be there was an attempt, eventually unsuccessful, to suppress this evidence.”

That's a lot of mights, mays and possibles for a critique that is attacking speculation.

Finally, I would say that some of the comments posted here are disrespectful toward someone who has earned a great deal of respect in the truth movement. Continued conjecture about “intentionality” for example, is uncalled for and those making such suggestions are out of line at the very least.
Submitted by Kevin Ryan on Mon, 02/14/2011 - 1:12pm.

Annoymouse's picture

and then there's this post. . .

. . . by john parulis.

"Cognitive Infiltration
When AE911 was beset with what for all intents and purposes had the tell tale earmarks of a sophisticated cognitive infiltration campaign (Orling and Trujillo) I tried Googling Trujillo and asking him directly about his background only to find and receive...virtually nothing. Was that intentional? Why?

I challenge Eric Larson, Loose Nuke, and Snow Crash to reveal a detailed resume of their past 20 years with mention of any NSA or government affiliations, military service or related areas of affiliation. Clear the air here Eric and friends. Your peripheral focus on 9/11 anomalies detracts serious study away from our strong areas which are Building 7 and the improbable screwy-NIST physics that tries to explain buildings 1 & 2.
Jon, I believe your heart is in the right place but you reveal a troubling egoism with your hold against controlled demolition. This detracts from your overall believability. Shame on the mods here for possibly allowing a high level infiltration of 911blogger.

I'm not here to make friends. My love for the Truth Movement comes first. If anyone needs to see my past 30 years, I'll be happy to furnish it.

Submitted by John_Parulis on Mon, 02/14/2011 - 10:59pm"

willyloman's picture

This comment by Parulis was erased on Blogger...

with a spiteful admission afterward. I just finished writing about this issue again. I listened to a "round-table" discussion with several of the fake "truthers" (Jon Gold, John Albanese and Nicholas Filippelli) attacking DRG on some pod-cast or something.

http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/fake-truther-roundtable-attac...

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. JFK

Keenan's picture

John Parulis banned from 911Blogger for telling it like it is

John Parulis, a longtime member of A&E911truth (before he was ousted for calling attention to the infiltration of A&E911T) has apparently been banned today at 911Blogger and most of his posts were deleted on the above thread, after he stated the obvious: that 911Blogger shows all the telltae signs of being cognitively infiltrated and that some likely infiltrators include Eric Larson, Vulich, Snowcrash, and John Albanese.

His last lengthy post was a real doozy that must have made the fakes panic and squirm in the bright light of exposure, so it was quickly deleted. Just when I was about to copy it to post here it was disappeared down the memory hole, damn! I am trying to locate a web cache or copy...

John Parulis has had decades of experience learning about agents and infiltrators, as he was on the Greenpeace ship Rainbow Warrier which was attacked by French secret agents on July 10, 1985. Parulis had mentioned in a conversation with me that a French hippy girl had been sent by the French intelligence agency and infiltrated into his group before the Rainbow Warrier was bombed by the French secret agents.

gretavo's picture

groupthink...

...requires enforcement.

Annoymouse's picture

To be more accurate

John Parulis is a Founding Member of AE911Truth.
And it wouldn't be too far from "the truth" to say he was a "co-founder" of AE911Truth. (imo)
Along with myself, we were basically one and two, along with Richard Gage.
(there was another person who was there and then quickly gone very early on)
John and I designed and implemented the original AE911Truth website.
(not the first "temporary" website, the second "real/official" website, born Memorial Day 2007)
And although John wasn't as involved in AE911Truth due to the need to work
and other life issues like that, he was always there and part of "The Team",
contributing when and as he could throughout. (until late last year or so)
As I said to someone recently, John is beyond reproach when it comes to
his involvement at AE911Truth or the 9/11 Truth and Justice Movement.
(the internal AE911Truth issues some know about from last year being something of a
separating point between John (and some other members/supporters) and AE911Truth --
I had already "officially" left AE911Truth by that point and was not as involved
or affected by it, and took more of a softer reaction to it all)
We need MORE people like John and less like those we see all-too-often.
He has done more for the movement than most of the posters at 9/11 Blogger
put together. If they weren't "idiots", or if they cared, they would know
this and treat him with the respect he deserves and has earned.
(also due in part to his activism and vast experience with other movements --
and note that there are a few like-others that have been unnecessarily and
unduly "ravaged" at 911B, as well (like Chris Sarns) --- and that respect that should be
shown being far beyond what most of the 911B posters will ever attain or deserve)
But you don't find a lot of that at 9/11 Blogger these days, which is why
I rarely read it or post there anymore myself.

Bill Donnelly
Founding Member of AE911Truth,
Past Member of the AE911Truth Board of Directors,
Primary Webmaster for the first two+ years,
De Facto Executive Assistant to Richard Gage for ~ two years,
Original Member of "Team Truth", and Team Leader and Member of multiple
working group Teams (including Verifications, Web, Graphics, Finance, and others),
Still partially active contributor to and supporter of AE911Truth
(AE911Truth Supporter/User #1 (taking into account the 'official' starting point #50,
User ID #51, and creator of and the first person to sign the AE911Truth petition))

[[ btw -- I don't think John was banned at 911B, although he might have been,
but he was censored and censured, and his account was probably put on
"Moderation" so his posts need to be "okayed" by a Moderator before they
will display, which was done to me, as well, and has been done before --
I currently and have posted for some time there as "sullun" -- with
some other nicknames / pseudonyms in earlier years ]]

Annoymouse's picture

Parulis Email exchange with 911blogger Mod Justin Keogh

Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 3:20 PM

Dear Friends. This post is why I was just kicked off of 911blogger. 911blogger, in my opinion, has been infiltrated by a sophisticted team and misguided by its headstrong and reactionary leadership.

I continue to work in the Truth Movement regardless. While 911blogger is an important mouthpiece for the movement it isn't the sole source of information on 9/11. Now it appears to be a corrupted source at that.

John Parulis

--- On Tue, 2/15/11, Justin Keogh <***> wrote:

From: Justin Keogh <***>
Subject: Re: 911Blogger Rules
To: "John Parulis" <***>
Cc: "Blogger Team"
Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 1:15 PM

Un fucking believable.

John, Ted and I are responsible for who moderates on 911blogger. Nobody else. We choose our mods by the excellent work they produce.

-Justin

I stand by my demand that
Vote up!
Vote down!

I stand by my demand that Eric, Loose Nuke and others be vetted and that by high level Truth Luminaries. Add John Albanese to the mix.

We are naive beyond belief to think that here at 911blogger we have not been infiltrated. It most likely happened last year at AE911Truth and I was in the thick of it and learned some valuable lessons. Unlike many of you here, I have experience with infiltration that led to the death by French Secret Service Agents of my friend and fellow Greenpeace photographer, Fernando Perierra in 1985 with the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in Auckland New Zealand. We are a sophisticated group of scientists, scholars and high level activists who are immune to the typical violence-inducing playbook that the FBI uses for animal rights activists and other eco-activist groups. We are not about to embrace violent acts in any way shape or form and would ID & expel any such infiltrator in a heartbeat. We are not immune to sophisticated infiltration schemes described in DRG's latest book Cognitive Infiltration. If these forces would want to destroy us they would have to employ a much more studied approach. And I believe they have.

Some of the bloggers mentioned here exhibit the tell tale signs of infiltration. It's like they're using the same playbook. Here it goes.

Enter the movement sounding and looking like a dedicated 9/11 activist, then at some point once established in our mainstream, let loose a re-focus campaign on the peripheral anomalies of 9/11 like, for instance, how the Pentagon was attacked, the phone calls allegedly made from the doomed flights or in AE911Truth's case, a shift away from mentioning "Controlled Demolition" in favor of an obtuse phrase "Engineered Destruction". Then employ lengthy posts riddled with poor research and numerous straw man arguments to draw others into an endless discussion- usually marked by huge word-count diatribes. ....away from our strong science focused on the three buildings and the specific evidence gathered to support our claims. Then try to garner the support of our leadership and then use that to further fragment the movement. When queried about their history of activism, backgrounds and list of reliable activist connections, become evasive and unresponsive.

Poor vetting caused enormous problems at AE911Truth. It appears that this problem has also afflicted 9/11Blogger. Certainly the moderators owe us an explanation. David Ray Griffin is recuperating from a serious illness. Why this focus on just one area of his bountiful research and at this time- when he is unable to give his usual 100% to engage in a rebuttal? What is the motivation? Was there an attempt to contact David privately to discuss the phone call issue before the publishing of this post?

David is perhaps the Heirophant (forgive me David) of this movement and how appropriate that he is also a renown religious scholar. To kick him when he's down is proof enough for me that something is wrong here.

We are getting closer to the 10 year anniversary of the tragedy of 9/11. Our 3 buildings science has made significant progress. We have a growing body of global supporters. The opposition know this. They are not given to retreat in any sense of the word. They've shown us their hateful and ugly face many times and they are not about to go away. I'm putting myself out here in a way that I've not employed before. I've seen this before. I've experienced the misery caused by secret forces within the apparatus of the state. If anything, I ask all of you to look at this carefully and give deep thought to it. Contact William Pepper, who uncovered the real story behind the King assassination. I would much rather irritate a flock of bloggers here than risk losing this movement to fragmentation and endless internal squabbling.

The mods here owe it to this movement and those of us who dedicate our time and our lives here to explain their vetting procedure. Is that too much to ask?

John
Submitted by John_Parulis on Tue, 02/15/2011 - 2:35pm.

On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:09 PM, Justin Keogh <***> wrote:

John, this is a very blatant violation of the rules.

You are on moderation until further notice.

That means you can comment, but they will go into a queue, and unless the comments are really exemplary (in our opinion) then they are unlikely to be published.

I am surprised you would post something like that.

I suppose you want my resume too. Heck, maybe we should ban anonymous posters too.

-Justin

»

* delete
* edit
* reply
* -4 votes

New Not off the hook that easily
Vote up!
Vote down!

Not off the hook that easily Loose. Let fact checkers check your resume. I threw a gauntlet down at you.
The purpose is not to engage you in your distraction thread it is to challenge you and your cohorts directly.
Answer the question or remain in forever doubt in the minds of posters here. I truly hope I'm wrong but you display the MO of an infiltrator.
Submitted by John_Parulis on Mon, 02/14/2011 - 11:49pm.

-Justin

gretavo's picture

CLASSIC Jon Gold

It's got it all--name dropping, hypocrisy, self-promotion, pure Gold!

 

Did you really say that?

"This thread is another diversion, a hideous
waste of time and a not so subtle campaign to turn attention and support
away from the "Building What?" campaign."

Pointing out that bad information is being promoted is not a
diversion, and not everyone agrees with the "Building What?" campaign.
Not everyone agrees that WTC7, Controlled Demolition, or nano-thermite
are the best ways of reaching a majority of people. To accuse someone
of a "not so subtle campaign to turn attention and support away" from
something when they are doing a service for this cause is absurd.
Snitch-jacket much?

Thank you for your help with the budget crisis

Satire:
You are doing the work of two agents and thus saving the govt a lot of money. ;-)

Fact:
You said this:
"Has it occurred to anyone by reading this article by Erik that one of
the biggest proponents of the "Controlled Demolition Hypothesis" was
DRG, and that maybe he was wrong to push that on everyone? He was wrong
about this, so maybe he was wrong to try and make CD the "premiere
issue."

This a is a OCT argument. First attack and discredit the
messenger - then claim the because the messenger is wrong about the
phone calls he is probably wrong about CD being the most important
issue.

This is so wrong for so many reasons.
1) You are using OCT tactics - attack the messenger, ignore the message.
2) CD is not DRG's idea - it's the majority opinion.
3) Your premise for bashing DRG is false - there is evidence that the calls were faked.
4) This thread and many of the comments attacking DRG are very divisive and detrimental to the TM.
5) The timing is suspect. This is a minor issue and it's being
introduced just as we are putting the CIT controversy to bead just
creates another emotional rhubarb. Intended or not, it is a disruption.
6) You interject yourself in every discussion about CD or Building What
and promote yourself ad nausium. You want this to be the Jon Gold
movement.

Your outrageous EGO is one of the biggest detriments to the peace and stability of the Truth Movement.

Sorry, but no...

You're wrong. Basically about everything. DRG
has been wrong. Fact. I would gladly disassociate myself from this
cultish "movement," its "high priest," and people like you... gladly...
willingly... but I care too much about this cause.

Spoken like an OCTer

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

Only an OCTer would use the asinine label "high priest".

If you cared half as much for "the cause" as you do for yourself, you
would not be constantly trying to undermine the Building What campaign.

You claim to support the family members. So why are you undercutting Bob McIlvaine, Manny Badillo ?

Both you and Erik are opposed to putting CD "front and center".
The Building What campaign should absolutely be "front and center" because it is by far the best "attention getter".

I don't think you are working for the other side but you may as well be IMO.

No...

Only a person who points out that the 9/11
Truth Movement has become like a cult would use a phrase like "high
priest." I don't undermine the building what campaign. I voice my
opinion that CD and nano-thermite should not be front and center. As I have consistently forever.
There is a difference. I just tried to help Ted Walters get some
contact info the other day for someone (which unfortunately I didn't
have). No one has supported the family members or the responders more
than me over the years.
That is a fact. What the fuck have you done
for this cause Chris? Anything? Seriously... Anything Chris, or have
you sat on the internet and argued about theories for years with
everyone? I don't think you are working for the other side but you may
as well be IMO.

 

gretavo's picture

CLASSIC John Albanese

Trying to sound erudite (by claiming he actually reads books) he reveals yet again what a moron he is... the fact that they allowed him to "come out of retirement" as it were says to me that the fake truthers' paymasters are getting pretty desperate. The more the real truth movement grows, the harder it is for the relativ ely small number of fakers to control us.

 

i have in my opinion

i have

in my opinion Cognitive Infiltration is extremely poor. it fails on
multiple levels - from his accusations that Cass Sunstein is "signaling"
that he knows 9/11 was a government operation (DRG claims that there
are "esoteric" hidden meanings in Sunstein's writing) - to his
selective choice of largely debunked facts such as missing planes and
living hijackers - to his endorsement of groups like "pilots for 9/11
Truth."

take cellphone fakery out of the equation and Cognitive Infiltration
is still a rather poor book that I cannot endorse as representative of
the interests of the 9/11 Truth movement.

Oops

"his accusations that Cass Sunstein is "signaling" that he knows 9/11 was a government operation"

In the introduction, Griffin states that he wants the reader to take
this possibility "seriously but not literally." I myself forgot about
that warning halfway through the book, and started getting puzzled about
what a whacked-out theory Griffin had come up with, and how much
evidence there is against it. He reminds the reader, when you get to the
end of the book, that it was just a rhetorical device. We could discuss
in another thread whether it was a smart device to use, whether he did a
good job using it, etc. but let's please not misrepresent what he was
doing.

 

Dennis's picture

LOL re: "Trying to sound erudite (by claiming he actually . . .

...reads books) [John Albanese] reveals yet again what a moron he is..."

are the "fake truthers' paymasters" that stupid to have pulled this stunt? or did loosekook, snowtrash, zombiepisshicks et al dream this one up on their own? or what? seriously tho, what branch of governement, invisible government, or whatever might be behind all this cognitive infiltration rot, and this endgame? is oira (http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/inforeg_administrator) a convenient front for cass moonbeam operations?

re: "The more the real truth movement grows, the harder it is for the relatively small number of fakers to control us."
number crunch needed: how many on each side? looks to me that realTruthers are clearly outnumbered on 9/11blogger now.

gretavo's picture

numbers

I wouldn't pretend to know exact numbers, but I'd say that you can be sure that over time the number of real truthers, that is real people who are genuinely interested in discovering and disseminating what really happened on 9/11, is always going to be increasing while the number of fake truthers is not because presumably the pool of people willing to whore themselves out to mass murderers is not that large and has probably been largely tapped by this point. it's a good sign that the fake movement finds it increasingly necessary to pull stunts and overplay their hand in an effort to make it look like they aren't losing. their goals must include a) trying to turn off as many potential new real truthers as possible and b) trying to discourage and demoralize as many existing real truthers as possible. We simply need to keep doing what we're doing, and more, while understanding that the 911bloggers and truthactions of the movement aren't nearly as influential as they want people to believe. Remember that 9/11 is all about trying to force people to choose, or resign themselves to, an illusion over reality, and that the crime and the cover-up are naturally going to be similar since they were conceived and are being managed by the same people. We shouldn't think of being "in it til we win it" we need to think more along the lines of being in it no matter what because it's the right thing to do. This means not choosing to run so hot that we burn out but instead to learn to and help each other live happy lives that include some degree of truthing in them. Being happy and healthy individuals helps us immensely in bringing people around to seeing the truth. No one wants to listen to or take seriously someone who seems angry, paranoid, or, let's be blunt, overly weird. What we are building must, to be successful, be something that lasts forever by being self-sustaining and fertile. Over time, our prospects will only improve as long as we maintain a minimum level of dedication to what we know to be not only right but also extremely important for the future of our planet and species.

Dennis's picture

very interesting take, thanks. re: "Being happy...

...and healthy individuals helps us immensely in bringing people around to seeing the truth. No one wants to listen to or take seriously someone who seems angry, paranoid, or, let's be blunt, overly weird."
very true. i remember when i first discovered alex jones a couple of years ago and connected to a friend in austin and asked about alex. friend said, "my father-in-law listens to alex everyday and is the most miserable person i know." alex played a big part in waking me up bout 9/11 initially (in september 2008), but there is just so much fear-based negativity i can handle, and so i quickly stopped utilizing my introductory subscription to prison planet and began searching elsewhere. cool to have landed here via willyloman.

gretavo's picture

agree completely

about the negativity/fear factor with AJ. almost as if the powers that be are saying, sure we know we can't hide everything from you but we'll make sure that if you learn some of our secrets you'll be miserable as a result and no one will want to listen to you. btw, Dennis, I changed your avatar from the standard anonymous one to Ben Franklin, to avoid confusion. Feel free to change it (just click on your user name and then the edit tab)...

Dennis's picture

re: alex jones

re: "almost as if the powers that be are saying, sure we know we can't hide everything from you but we'll make sure that if you learn some of our secrets you'll be miserable as a result and no one will want to listen to you." not sure i follow. are you suggesting that AJ's site is controlled opposition? or something else?

 thanks for the upgrade to ben franklin.

 what is your take on the buildingwhat? campaign (http://www.buildingwhat.org/) with which i am involved.

gretavo's picture

my take on "building what?"

Well, I certainly support it, and think that both the ad and the site are very well crafted. If I have any criticism it is about the links to 911blogger and some of the other sites on the links page...

Dennis's picture

thanks, very glad to read that you. . .

. . .support buildingwhat?. i should have searched for "buildingwhat" on the site. we're working to help bring about the building 7 part of the all day 9/11 event scheduled for march 26 at the university of hartford. the university group sponsoring the event has put together a website in progress here http://www.investigatebuilding7.org/ tentative presenters include: william pepper, richard gage, kevin ryan, graeme macqueen, tony szamboti, others.

i did search here for "alex jones" articles and am going thru them now. wow!

juandelacruz's picture

I would watch out for kevin

I would watch out for kevin ryan, would hate to see the good effort of building what campaign sabotaged from the inside by an infiltrator.

http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/3079

http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/3017

http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/3000

http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/2969

He is a wise guy, so when he plays stupid, it really sticks out.

He has a very subtle way of disinfo. While Jon Gold outright undermines CD, Kevin Ryan promotes CD, but tried to introduce the Saudi angle into the narrative even though the most obvious route was through Silverstein > Mossad > Zionists/Israel. No I do not blame the whole of Israel, but there is a probable link to Israel given the whole cast of suspects around 9-11.

Watch your six.

Chris's picture

I second that. Kevin Ryan is

I second that. Kevin Ryan is painfully obvious at this point.

Dennis's picture

Oh, fuck, am I gonna get banned from here too?

Hope not, but here goes.

I’ve read the articles suggested to me in this thread, but don’t have the same negative reactions or draw the same negative conclusions as drawn by the posters of those articles and some of the WTCD commenters. In large part, this is because the whole LIHOP vs MIHOP thing is not a dealbreaker for me. In fact, it’s not even close to that. Why? Because in my book, if some 9/11 perps are proven to have LIHOP, that’s still treason and mass murder as “accessories before the fact,” and should carry the same punishment as if the perps were MIHOP.

Further, in my own experience, when I first started paying attention to 9/11 (circa 2008), the whole MIHOP thing struck me as surreal and unbelievable. The more I researched, the less unbelievable MIHOP became, and you can pretty much call me a MIHOPer now. BUT…I still don’t KNOW what happened. I still don’t KNOW who was the ultimate igniter of 9/11—Saudis and/or Zionists and/or Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-Silverstien-Giuliani-WhoeverElse, and/or someone else entirely, and/or some combination of these. Does anyone KNOW beyond a reasonable doubt (besides the actual perps)? And even if you do “know,” you haven’t proven it in a legal forum and the perps are still running free. So where does that leave us? Still in need of a credible investigation. As we pursue that goal, why divide a movement over LIHOP vs MIHOP?

Further, I submit that it’s unrealistic to think that all Truthers will be 100% in agreement on 100% of the issues. We come close to that here on WTCD in support of DRG, but even that is not 100%. When that cowardly hitpiece on DRG was posted on 911blogger, and all the SunnyStein agents came out cheering in an organized chorus, Kevin Ryan (along with Graeme MacQueen, John Parulis, and others) spoke up for DRG. That goes a long way with me, as does the positive opinion of Kevin shared among people I respect. Again, I’ve not seen anything in the stories in the links provided to change that.

Finally, what got me bounced from 911blogger just before the DRG hitpiece was posted, was my insinuating that certain people there—who were pushing a default to the OCT if we didn’t have evidence contradicting the OCT—were Sunstein agents. Whether those people were (faux) LIHOP or MIHOIP or ZIHOP or BUNNYHOP didn’t (and doesn’t) matter to me. Does that make me persona non grata here too? HOPENOT.

gretavo's picture

Dennis...

...people get banned here when I reach point where I can't trust them. Killtown was banned not for advocating video fakery but for only ever posting about how we were wrong about it. Lazlo Toth was banned after being asked several times to watch the inflammatory rhetoric and then blogging a link to a neo-Nazi guy's site with little to no redeeming value. Others have been banned for provocateurish posts that seemed designed to make us look like bigots. The fact is that very few people have ever been banned, and certainly not for having an opinion that differs from mine on whatever it is. You are free to express your opinion that I and others here are wrong about Kevin Ryan. I really wish we were because for a time he was one of the truth movement figures I thought was most trustworthy. I would love to discuss this at length here if you're willing. What often happens however is that when someone here feels that they (or someone they like) has been unjustly accused of being insincere, they leave in a huff saying something to the effect of how we (or I) are such awful people who will never be anything in the movement because of our divisive approach yada yada. This is why Adam Syed asked to have his account suspended--to make some kind of point about how awful we are. But of course he still lurks and recently emailed me to tell me how awful I am for having banned Keenan, which makes me wonder how irrelevant he really thinks we are.

Dennis's picture

thanks for the explanation, gretavo. . .

. . .the wtcd history, and the perspective. i do think it’s important to be able to disagree and still keep the discourse going, and so i appreciate the opportunity to voice and entertain differing viewpoints. understood that there must be limits. yes, “unjustly accused of being insincere” is understandably a hot-button for some.

Allende Admirer's picture

Dennis , I doubt if you'll

Dennis , I doubt if you'll get banned for genuinely questioning anything here.-From what I have seen it is only people who obviously are trying to billpost disinfo and who are incapable of understanding or responding to logical argument.

I would suggest there are two reasons why there is a big problem with Lihop.

The first, is that by accepting and promoting the fact that Islamofascists were trying to attack us on 911 (Unproven), you are diminishing the motivation of the people wishing to uncover the truth about 911 through 'fog of war' logic. You see this position all the time in comments. People will accept dirty tricks from their gov, if they are acting to defend them ultimately from an accepted menace, and if Islamofascist involvement is accepted (Lihop), then the end justifies the means, and all the wars etc were in our best interests ultimately.

Alternatively, if (as the evidence suggests) it is CD that brought down the WTC's, then you are talking about a gov prepared to execute the most cynical murder and deception of its own people in order to blame an innocent party and start wars against them for corporate /imperialist reasons alone.Under these circumstances, enlightened people are going to be much more motivated to expose and change their criminal oligarchy.

All the cover up and infiltration stratagies are aimed at one purpose- to put people off 911 truth, and demotivate them to be concerned or to seek justice for it.

The second reason that Lihop matters is the empirical observation that the people promoting Lihop are the same people who are trying to neutralise the movement, by promoting endless disagreement over CIT, by casting aspersions about the conclusiveness of CD without ever debating it, by now attacking leaders like DRG. When you realise (as you appear to have) that these people have been running the so called most influential 911 news site,(Blogger) then you begin to see that their entire ouput is designed to put people off , demotivate them cause them to give up, or divide into factions, and censor/ cast aspersions on anyone whose approach to 911truth is more effective .

Anyone who is genuine about 911 truth should be going where the evidence takes them and amplifying their best evidence front and center 24/7. Blogger/Lihop have not only failed to do that, they have distracted the movement from the best evidence, promoted weaker more easily discredited info instead and cast doubt on the best evidence without proofs or argument.

Ok, there is a very remote possibility that someone could be so stupid that they dont understand basic science, or can see a picture of pyroclastic flow and not know the fact that it can only come from explosives or volcanic eruption. In this case your premise is perhaps valid, and so let them look into anomolies of the official story- they might come up with some evidence and we may all be forced to reevaluate.
- Live and let Live you might say

However it is another thing entirely to do this and try to diminish /discredit and distract from other more persuasive
evidence at the same time. That is what Lihop is and that is why it is an issue. The movement would be better and stronger if it cut this cancerous noise out, and concentrated on the most conclusive (and motivational) evidence instead.

Dennis's picture

thanks for your take. . .

. . .much appreciated. i do think that we have a different perspective on what lihop actually is.

from my perspective, i don’t see lihop as necessarily mutually exclusive with CD. specifically, tho i don’t think lihop is what happened, lihop could include an awareness that CD would be involved, no?

re: “All the cover up and infiltration stratagies are aimed at one purpose- to put people off 911 truth, and demotivate them to be concerned or to seek justice for it.”
i don’t see that lihop demotivates people from seeking justice. i speak from experience when i say it did not demotivate me. quite the opposite. then when i got into the research and it became, “whoa! it’s even worse than i thought [read mihop].”

re: “The second reason that Lihop matters is the empirical observation that the people promoting Lihop are the same people who are trying to neutralise the movement, by promoting endless disagreement over CIT, by casting aspersions about the conclusiveness of CD without ever debating it, by now attacking leaders like DRG. When you realise (as you appear to have) that these people have been running the so called most influential 911 news site,(Blogger) then you begin to see that their entire ouput is designed to put people off , demotivate them cause them to give up, or divide into factions, and censor/ cast aspersions on anyone whose approach to 911truth is more effective.”
imo, it is not the sunsteins’ focus on lihop that matters most. it is more that they are trying (as you say) “to neutralize the movement, by promoting endless disagreement, by casting aspersions about the conclusiveness of CD without ever debating it, by now attacking leaders like DRG.” if they were doing all this and NOT stressing lihop, would that make what they were doing ok? of course not. if they were doing all this and insisting that “there is no God,” would that make it wrong per se to be an atheist? i submit not. which is why i see the lihop issue as not determinative of a person’s status as a “Truther.” it may be a tipoff as to where a person is coming from, especially if they’ve been around a while, but then again it might not. so we’d need to look further, in my view. thus, bottom line, i would allow for the possibility that not all lihoppers are disinfo.

willyloman's picture

Dennis...

I've been visiting this site and engaging in discussions with these guys for a while now. It would be an understatement to say that we have disagreed from time to time. But I can honestly say I haven't seen Gretavo ban anyone before... I have seen Keenan badger people til they quit coming, but banning people is certainly not what this site is about. Not because you disagree with them.

On the subject of LIHOP... LIHOP is simply the official story with "a few bad apples" with "foreknowledge". It's 19 angry Muslims, a valid Global War on Terror, and perhaps a new patsy or two to take a fall.

As far as what you know about who ultimately order this... you can't know and that's what makes LIHOP so appealing to those who would want us to forever be mired in hidden plots, allegations, innuendo, and circumstantial evidence. So IMHO, we have to stick to what we do know; physics.

Is it possible that what we saw happen to the Twin Towers was a gravitational collapse? No. Is it possible that what we saw happen to Building 7 was caused by small office fires and "thermal expansion"? No. Is it possible that all that steel was instantly vaporized as shown by the RJ Lee Group report due to gravitational collapse and jet fuel? No.

Is it possible that what we saw at the Pentagon was the crash site of a 100 ton 757-200 with twin 6 ton titanium and steel engines given the debris field and eye witness accounts from people like April Gallop? No.

Is it by chance that all those put options were put on American and United airlines just prior to 9/11? No. Is it by chance Rumsfeld announced the missing 2.3 trillion dollars the day before the attacks and then Flight 77 circled the Pentagon so that it would hit that very office where they were looking? And that there was no warning of the approaching target even though we all know they were tracking it? No.

If there is controlled demolition, they didn't let it happen they made it happen. If they picked the area of the Pentagon to strike they didn't let it happen they made it happen. They used coked up, strip-club loving assets, not angry Muslims for the attack. They had cover stories all ready to go (able danger) and "credible" whistle-blowers (sibel) to lend support to the LIHOP story-line if needed.

The point I am trying to make is that there aren't real LIHOPers in the movement, people who believe the official story with a few caveats thrown in. If they believe the official story of 9/11 then they aren't Truth advocates and you have to ask yourself "what are they doing here"?

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. JFK

Dennis's picture

thanks willy...

...i always appreciate your take on things.

if, as you say, “LIHOP is simply the official story with ‘a few bad apples’ with ‘foreknowledge. It's 19 angry Muslims, a valid Global War on Terror, and perhaps a new patsy or two to take a fall,” then i would agree that lihop is per se poison. maybe then, it’s a matter of definition. i was defining lihop as “[insert all likely suspects] knew what was going to happen (including CD), and let it happen, so they could advance their perpetual wars, trash the constitution, etc. etc. to me, their participation in lihop makes them nothing short of traitors and mass murderers who need to be brought to justice.

agreed, “we have to stick to what we do know; physics.”

i would agree also that “If there is controlled demolition, they didn't let it happen they made it happen. If they picked the area of the Pentagon to strike they didn't let it happen they made it happen.” but what i don’t agree with is the automatic dismissal of someone as a Truther if they don’t go that far in their thinking. maybe they’re still stuck on “american exceptionalism” and blinded to the facts no matter how persuasive the evidence.

re: “The point I am trying to make is that there aren't real LIHOPers in the movement, people who believe the official story with a few caveats thrown in. If they believe the official story of 9/11 then they aren't Truth advocates...”
ah, ok. so you would disagree with my position that one could entertain lihop while not believing the official story. but...that is what happened to me, that was my experience before i did further research and came over to mihop. which is why i don’t accept that 100% of all lihoppers are necessarily OCT’ers. to be sure, if someone has been around a while re 9/11 Truth, a fair question to ask is, “what are they doing here?” as you say, especially if they are defining lihop as you do.

willyloman's picture

Perhaps I'm a bit cynical, jaded, after so many years of...

... running a Truth and anti-globalization website. Just yesterday AHEY suggested I might be "disinfo" because I refuse to rehash the "evidence" for TV fakery.

Today I was called a "Joo' on Kenny's sight (not by Kenny obviously)(I thought was funny actually) because I don't buy Dimitri's BS.

and that was just the last two days.

I guess I am just a bit jaded after all of this time in this movement.

Yes, you're right, there can be legit LIHOPers who really do have the best interests of the movement at heart, I suppose. It depends on their education level in all of this regarding the evidence we already have and I suppose how willing they are to stand up to this artificial consensus that our more dubious "Truthers" have been able to create.

You yourself are a good example.

As you said earlier, the more you learned the more you came to see they made it happen. Then you also had the fortitude to stand up to the amen chorus at Blogger when they mounted their echo chamber assault on the integrity of DRG.

So, you would a good example of what I am talking about.

But unfortunately I think there are certainly fewer of those well-meaning LIHOPers than there are of the other kind. IMO.

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. JFK

Dennis's picture

yeah, everybody's disinfo nowadays. . .

. . . the sunstein mob must be laughing out loud.

re: "Then you also had the fortitude to stand up to the amen chorus at Blogger when they mounted their echo chamber assault on the integrity of DRG."
thanks but my standup preceded by a couple of days the cowardly hitpiece on DRG, as we discussed on your site at http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2011/02/02/wikileaks%e2%84%a2-goes-lihop...
so i was not able to post anything in DRG's defense, as others thankfully stepped up to do.

in our discussion on your site, you referred to the "LIHOP push" at 911blogger. actually i'd lable it more an "OCT push," and/or a "destroy DRG and the real Truth movement" push, which to me is exponentially worse. but again, it's a definitional thing--specifically, how to define the "It" in LIHOP. i think that's the key to our differences here.

juandelacruz's picture

Hi Dennis, Your observation

Hi Dennis,

Your observation of an effort to support the OCT within 911B is correct. But if you look at the people supporting it now, they are the same people who for quite a long time have been supporting LIHOP in it's various flavors.

At one point it was even popular in 911B to say that CD should be downplayed in favor of Pakistan ISI links and other wild goose chases that have less (most possibly faked) evidence to back them up.

My interpretation of the above is that there is an effort to divert attention from real evidence of an inside job, and the probable true instigators of the crime.

Dennis's picture

It is Sunstein Central there now...

.,.that's for sure. And it's good to be aware of that. Their downplaying CD is a tipoff. As is defaulting to OCT. And when the "IT" in LIHOP is OCT, it would make sense that the anti-CD and OCT-default people would also be into LIHOP. Attacking DRG while he is still recovering from a stroke and aphasia will prove to be their undoing.

willyloman's picture

Jon Gold is calling us a "cult" again...

... this time he takes exception to my write-up on the "Round Table of Trolls" radio show and their personal attacks on DRG...

http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-20/911-justice-accountability-round-t...

here is the link to my "cultish" review of their attack on David ray Griffin...

http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/fake-truther-roundtable-attac...

Blogger is nothing more than an echo-chamber of contractors just like Truth Action.

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. JFK

Dennis's picture

please don't tell my mother. . .

. . . she was always worried that i'd "get taken in by a cult."
mirror mirror on the wall

gretavo's picture

nailed it here

"The contractors (who claim to already have vast successful experience in this field) layout a plan to infiltrate certain groups, use other sacrificial fakes (think Judy Woods, Morgan Reynolds, CIT) in order to garner their primary fakes (Jones, Roberts, Hoffman,Legge) leadership status in the movement. Then they can skillfully enact what Cass Sunstein was talking about when he called for “introducing beneficial cognitive diversity” which in this case translates to bringing the members of the movement, step by step, back into line with the official story of 9/11"

willyloman's picture

I just had a little interaction with Nicholas Filippelli on...

... that thread. He mentioned WTCdemolition (but didn't link surprise surprise). Must have been an oversight. Perhaps I should insert one for him. Needless to say he used several nice little buzz-words again. This time he actually called us "extremists".. nice huh?

with friends like that, who needs neocons?

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. JFK

gretavo's picture

Jesse Ventura as sacrificial fake

The Ventura straw-man gets kicked around by Jeff "Shure" Hill, the reformed "WTC no-planer", a performance dutifully posted at 911Blogger by YT "Unclemickeysnephew" Cosmos as a repost from 911truthnews, the "news site run by veterans of this movement"... what's the point of even addressing Shure's debunking of Ventura's deliberately sloppy BS? It just goes to illustrate how similar "debunkers" and fake truthers have become - less ostensible diversity, more actual uniformity I guess?

http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-23/jesse-ventura-s-fake-phone-calls-c...

Jesse Ventura’s second season finale of “Conspiracy Theory” ended with an episode concerning what happened at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. Among the many fraudulent claims made in the television program, Ventura included a segment dealing with the ridiculous claim that fake phone calls were made from aboard the hijacked planes that morning, further purposing the idea that the calls were actually created by voice morphing technology. Jesse Ventura called upon forensic audio expert Kent Gibson for a demonstration of voice morphing technology during the show. I had a conversation with Kent concerning his appearance on Ventura’s show. Mr. Gibson had some very interesting things to say about the fake calls claim, Jesse Ventura and his Conspiracy Theory show.

willyloman's picture

This is their big evidence?

What's funny is that the guy says "Yeah, I could convince someone's mother she was talking to her kid, I just couldn't do it 30 times"

So it's a manpower issue, not a technology issue.

And what was Jeff Hill's specific experience which qualifies him for approaching this subject? What allows him to know all about the software out there? "I'm a DJ"... he's a DJ

Hill was a "no planer"? figures.

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. JFK

willyloman's picture

Have you guys seen what is going on at Blogger?

It's all falling apart and Albanese and Gold are desperately trying to pound the Truth advocates back into line... gotta love it

“Lately, there seems to be a curious rush to judgment by certain “truthers” to accept several different aspects of the official 9/11 story without conclusive evidence. An earlier example would be the implication that AA 77 FDR data is authentic, despite the fact that no inventory serial control numbers are attributed to the FDR, that there is a several hour time stamp discrepancy concerning the data and its recovery and that this data depicts pilot control of AA 77 – the pilot who by most accounts was incapable.” Aidan Monaghan

“I too have noticed that lately certain truthers are embracing the TOCT more & more. Maybe they’re rachetting up the infiltration in anticipation of the tenth anniversary.” waitew

“I used actual research, as you wished for, and agree with waitew. See above. It is virtually impossible to use a cell phone at altitudes claimed.
Whereas, it IS demonstrably clear that voice morphing technology existed and could have been used. ” EyeOnTheBall

http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-23/jesse-ventura-s-fake-phone-calls-c...

Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth. JFK

Annoymouse's picture

hadn't noticed. . .

. . . since being put in the moderation queue at 9/11 blogger for challenging their suggested default to the OCT, i've been here at wtcd and at your site primarily. thanks! good to see.

juandelacruz's picture

Hey Dennis

Do not take our word for it. Infiltration is a reality. Just study obvious cases like David Shayler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Shayler

Know who you are working with. Do not tolerate bullshit in your ranks. They will pull you down. People get paid to do this.

Another obvious infiltration of 9-11 truth is the ruling clique at 9-11 blogger. This is harder to pinpoint because some of them play stupid. It's harder to ascertain if they are honestly mistaken or feeding you bs. Over time you can figure them out.

Dennis's picture

i am aware that. . .

. . . cognitive infiltration is a reality, and have recently become aware of the "ruling clique" at 9/11 blogger. david shayler was news. thanks!

johnscriv's picture

"largely tapped"

seems about right, since the gaggle of fake-truthers at 911blogger appears to remain relatively static over time, both in terms of methods and members. I don't see much evidence of fresh talent infusing the ranks of "people willing to whore themselves out to mass murderers" ...

I absolutely agree with the rest of your optimistic comment.

Keenan's picture

This is fantastic that the 911B fakes are attacking DRG now

because they cannot possibly win this battle. The vast majority of the 9/11 Truth movement, millions of people, will stand behind DRG and whether this gets much airpley or not throughout the rest of the movement (remember, only a small fraction of the 9/11 truth movement actually reads 911Blogger), the TrueFaction/911Blogger fakes are putting the final nail in their LIHOP coffin.

What this is doing is forcing people to show their true colors. The fakes on 911Blogger/TrueFaction are now standing up to be counted, on the WTC CD issue as well as the viscous attacks on the movement's foremost author/lecturer - DRG, thus guaranteeing that the LIHOP fakes downfall will come much sooner than we could have expected otherwise.

I say bring it on, blogger fakes! Give it your best shot. Keep hitting DRG below the belt like you are (knowing that he is in a state of health in which he is least able to put much energy into defending himself right now), because this is likely to be your last shot.

THANKS LIHOPPER FAKES FOR GIVING THE REAL TRUTH MOVEMENT AN EARLY CHRISTMAS PRESENT :) MAY YOUR DEATH BE A SLOW (BUT NOT TOO SLOW) AND PAINFUL ONE...

Annoymouse's picture

It looks like the battle for

It looks like the battle for Berlin has begun at 911blogger.
It is so freakin' obvious what they attempt to do, this is going to backfire big time.

They are even deleting pro-DRG posts, see: http://911blogger.com/news/2011-02-10/critique-david-ray-griffin-s-911-f...

They are not doing themselves a service.

Regards,
9/11-investigator

http://how911wasdone.blogspot.com/
http://911notes.blogspot.com/

willyloman's picture

Good work on all of this BTW Gretavo...

I just finished writing something about all of this and I give you and the site here a mention. As Keenan states, in a way its good for us that these contractors tipped their hand the way they did. If the comments at Blogger are any indication, this might be a turning point for us, a chance to get rid of fake Truth advocates and expose the fraud of the LIHOPers at the same time.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

thx, agreed

keep up the good work!

casseia's picture

Response from "Lips Malloy"

Thanks for reminding me this is why

I rarely read 911 Blogger or any other "Truth" website with any regularity. You guys piss me off too much. I come here when someone directs me to a link, then surf around and see what's up. Same old shit, only worse lately. The JREF of truth sites, only with the added 'high school' idiocy of voting plus the censorship. Lord of the Flies, anyone? Animal Farm?

Kevin Ryan, Rawhide and Anditico (maybe a few others) make sense to me on this thread, but for the most part I'm hearing opinions stated as facts, particularly the OP.

I'm neither a flyover fan nor a fan of the OCT. I can agree with Legge that nothing should have 'hit' the Pentagon. I completely disagree with Jon Gold on pretty much anything he says, including CD is not proven for the WTC, that he is the biggest supporter of the family members, that Zionism did not play a part in 911 and that anyone who thinks it did is an anti-semite.

I completely disagree with 911Blogger's decision to ban anyone who disagrees with their agenda, and am wondering why Jon Gold was once banned but is now back, when others (who support CIT, mainly) have been banned - permanently? What does it take to get unbannned, like Jon? My main disagreement here is censorship. Are we China? Russia?

Anyway, back to the OP, I can only offer my own experience with scientific experimentation as to whether cell phone calls can be made or not. Perhaps the OP (and anyone else) can tell me if he has done the same, or if he is relying solely on 'reported witnesses', FBI 'reports' and phone 'records' from the phone companies who have agreed to violate our constitutional rights via the Patriot Act. I should add I have a background in music and recording engineering (among other things), and I have a wonderful digital stage piano that contains samples from actual pianos and other instruments and sounds goddamn amazing - just like the real thing. It could fool anyone.

Please, if anyone one of you has tried this yourself, I would love to hear your experience. I have traveled by air countless times since 911, and have gone to NYC and DC specifically (from LA) numerous times, flying over much of the same areas as were involved in 911, including PA. Every time I fly, I attempt to use my cell phone, for the entire flight. I always have a window seat. I have Verizon which, if you believe their commercials (and Wikipedia), has the largest network in the US. I used to have an old school Nokia; now I have a 'smart' (?) phone. I have the phone on when I board the plane. I never turn it off.

On the trips to NYC and DC, I always fly Virgin America. They have seatback maps which show location, altitude and speed. Without fail, shortly after take off, the signal weakens and by about 8,0000 - 10,000 feet, sometimes less, there is nothing. Even when approaching a major city at lower altitude. The speed of the plane (anything over 200, generally, combined with altitude) makes it impossible.

Think back to 2001, then fast forward to today. Cell phone use has increased exponentially since then, and many more cell towers have been erected. Even with today's technology in phones and today's number of cell towers, making a cell call on a plane is next to impossible. You might get a bar and a half or even two for a couple seconds, but by the time you dial, the reception has disappeared. I can't even get cell reception at home, and I live in an exclusive area of LA, albeit on the ridge of a canyon.

I also tried to use a hand-held GPS, again while sitting in a window seat. The GPS showed 8-10 different satellites, but it could not latch onto a single one. It tried to latch on for the entire trans-continental flight. If you can't even get a satellite signal, how do you expect to get a cell tower signal, especially while traveling at anything over 200 knots?

All this is to say, maybe the calls weren't morphed, but maybe they were, and in my experienced opinion, cell phone calls were (and are, for the most part) impossible. Maybe those people were (as Northwoods suggests) held captive somewhere and forced to make cell calls on the ground.

I'd like to know why P4T and anyone else with a commercial aviation background isn't questioning why the flights were so empty, given they were transcontinental. Have any of you ever flown on a transcontinental flight that was 25%-35% 'full'? I haven't. If a flight wasn't nearly sold out, they'd cancel it and shunt passengers onto other flights. It is too expensive to fly a plane across country without it being a full or nearly full flight. Interestingly, the planes that hit the WTC were flying with approximately 1/3 the normal fuel. Which always pisses me off to hear people talk of 'fully loaded' 767's hitting the WTC, when that was hardly the case.

In closing, I would like to say that ANY of you, who think you know what happened at the Pentagon, is FOS. Whether you state with absolute surety that there was flyover, or whether you state with absolute surety that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. The truth is rarely black and white.

The one thing that is scientifically proven is CD, for WTC7. Personally, I believe it is also proven for the towers. The science is there. Why go elsewhere, and why dissemble the truth movement over what amounts to boyz with opinions?

A number of you on here are friends, and I choose to disagree with you here. To my mind, that is perfectly OK. It doesn't mean I respect you any less. But I respect the works of David Ray Griffin, and I cannot stand by and allow this bashing when many of you would be lucky to have a thimbleful of his intelligence and logic. I have read most of his books. While he makes a great argument, I don't think he has ever stated in uncertain terms that he is correct on everything. He makes a case for logic, just as many lawyers do in court. He has never, to my knowledge, tried to state opinion as fact, unlike a number of posters here.

Bottom line: With the exception of CD at the WTC, we do not have solid scientific proof. EVERYTHING at the Pentagon is suspect. So why is it suddenly the hot topic? And how can anything be definitive when we don't even have video evidence of what 'hit' the Pentagon? The FDR and radar data is totally suspect. The video evidence is completely inconclusive. People who claim evidence of victims at the Pentagon were plane passengers are FOS. I've seen those graphic photos. And DNA evidence? Please. Ironically (?) Israeli scientists proved that DNA evidence can be completely manufactured, even by a 2nd year biology student. If you're interested, I can provide the reference. I trust you've done your homework.

Sorry if this is long, but I rarely comment. I am angry that the truth movement has splintered to such a degree. We were lied to, as was the world. 911 didn't happen as they would have us believe. That much is clear.

Isn't that the bottom line?
Submitted by Lips Malloy on Wed, 02/16/2011 - 2:51am.

gretavo's picture

problem reaction solution

this post made me think about how PRS may have been used quite deliberately to lead to the kind of situation where censorship is seen as a necessary evil. u see, if we don't censor, we get overrun by ridiculous theories like cartoon planes, lizard people, etc. so we must censor those crazy theories like cartoon planes, Pentagon flyover, and lizard people. Because if we don't then all those ridiculous theories like cartoon planes, flyover, lizard people, and controlled demolition will turn off newcomers and offend "the family members". see how sneaky? :)

gretavo's picture

btw Cass...

...do you know if Lips Malloy is related to Boobs Radley? maybe even in a pseudo "Cosmos/Uncle Mickey" way?

Annoymouse's picture

Lips OK

I know Lips Malloy personally and can vouch for her honesty and integrity.

How does one join this blog?

We 911blogger refugees need some new outlets....

John Parulis

gretavo's picture

oh to clarify

I was just making a joke to cass based on my finding a certain resonance between the name Lips Malloy and a tweeter cass follows called Boobs Radley...

gretavo's picture

VERY telling comment by Victoria "Victronix" Ashley

Ashley is replying to John Albanese who keeps trying to defend his attack on DRG as possibly deliberately trying to harm the movement: 

 

intentionality

John, you're welcome to question that.

But to me, the reality is that different people cope with facts and evidence in different ways, and some have more denial and ways of rationalizing then others.

I've known people who will lie to coerce people into doing something that they think is right, but their purpose in doing so is not to intentionally deceive them -- they literally believe that they are bending the facts a little but that it is best for everyone because they know what's best for everyone, themselves included. They come to believe their own bending of facts. They believe what they are doing is best, not what they are doing is a "deception".

The issue is not to prove intentionality, but to show that some actions which cherry-pick facts can lead to setting up a false reality for others. Whether they did that intentionally or not can probably never truly be known, because we all have the built-in protections of denial and rationalization.

Because lot of psychological issues are involved, it's very tricky to claim you know what someone else's intentions are, not to mention that level of offense it can be to people who care about that person or look up to them.

So to say we need to determine intentionality is sort of a stretch. We cannot, and I disagree that anyone should try.

I think that the more we debate intentionality, the more we go in circles. It's exciting and will anger people, but it doesn't really get us anywhere that Erik's essay does not.

 

Why is this telling?  Well, think about what Ashley's LIHOP friends would have us believe--that the Bush administration DELIBERATELY ignored (alleged) warnings of an al Qaeda attack.  That they therefore let it happen, not because they screwed up as the OCT claims, but ON PURPOSE (putting the OP in LIHOP!)

But as Ashley says, proving intentionality is impossible!  I disagree, but could rephrase it in a way that I do agree with which is to say you can prove intentionality but your proof won't necessarily convince some people.  An argument of proof based on scientific principles, not judgments of human character, though not a silver bullet either, will tend to convince far more people.  This is the essence of the LIHOP containment strategy--to keep activists going around in circles arguing about whether they let it happen accidentally, on purpose, or made it happen, with "it" always being "an attack on America by Arab Muslim terrorists".  That's why Jon Gold can say that it really doesn't matter whether the planes alone could cause the towers to collapse or not!  The only issue that matters to him, and the only acceptable view of 9/11 in his estimation is that the Bush/Cheney administration and a group of Arab Muslims were ultimately responsible for every death that day.

Annoymouse's picture

KB show on "9/11 Truth Movement Infighting"

KBarrett's TJ-Radio show on Wed 2/16 was allegedly on "9/11 Truth Movement Infighting", with guests Adam Syed & Johnathan Mark. I say allegedly because the MP3 archive page has not been updated since Mon 2/14, so I've been unable to listen to the show.

See KB's pre-show writeup here,
http://truthjihadradio.blogspot.com/2011/02/todays-topic-911-truth-movem...

There he also tells the story about emailing 15 prominent truther pals to do a poll on what they think of CIT, and the split results he got.

Check back here for the archive MP3, when they finally post it,
http://www.americanfreedomradio.com/Barrett_11.html

gretavo's picture

hi adam!

Welcome back! Ill probably skip the show but glad to see you're keeping busy since leaving the site. Nice touch with the "oh the archive isn't up so I haven't heard the show" bit--totally had me fooled for a second or two! You know what's worse than fake truther infighting? Radio shows by provocateurs on fake truther infighting.

Annoymouse's picture

not Adam

you're awfully cocksure when taking misguided shots at well-intentioned people, casting false accusations about their "true identity". Really makes for an unwelcoming environment here. But you seem to have concluded that that's the most effective way to widely disseminate WTCD's core message?

I look forward to hearing this KB show. KB continues to impress me with his combination of balance, intellectual wisdom combined with humility, and general good cheer. GrEt should take notes.

gretavo's picture

boo hoo

this isn't a day care center where we strive to make everyone feel warm, cozy, and secure. pay attention for a second here, folks--a very common tactic among manipulators/infiltrators is to try to shame and guilt you into holding back what your really want to say for fear of being rejected and left all alone with no one to play with (snif!)

I could give a rat's ass what you think about Kevin Barrett or Adam Syed. As far as I'm concerned they are both fake truthers and I posted your comment not because I think there is any value to the interview it is promoting but because I'm the business of studying and exposing what I consider to be the individuals and methods involved in attempting to thwart the cause of 9/11 truth.

I make judgment calls. Others are welcome to make their own and tell me I'm wrong. Sometimes I might get one wrong, and someone's feelings will be hurt and they will go away warning me about how neither I nor this site will ever amount to a hill of beans because of our approach. This criticism will never influence me because I don't need to have "friends" to do what I do which is to tell it like I see it and encourage others to tell it like they see it and never be swayed by appeals to emotion or anything else other than a commitment to rigorous, uncompromising, and creative analysis. I have plenty of friends in real life whose motives I need not worry about to be sweating the latest anonymous online "friend" who insists I take their BS seriously.

Thanks for your contribution to our efforts!

willyloman's picture

They call it psyops for a reason...

... and your mouse friend, Adam, is about as subtle as a 70s actor on the Love Boat. My question is why keep trying to push the distraction theory now that they have succeeded in driving so many Truth advocates back into the waiting arms of the official story of the Pentagon and made the entire issue the most contentious of the truth movement? Ah, perhaps they know that the LIHOPers overstepped their bounds with their attack on DRG and now they are looking to recoup some lost credibility with the only thing they got going; CIT and the fly-over crap. Tell your mouse friend the rest of the readers here don't buy his "poor me, beat up by the mean gretavo" act. It's boring. Been done to death actually. It's about as original as Fantasy Island... and less believable. It's so sleazy and obvious it leaves a layer of slime on my eyes for having read it. Kinda like that picture of Adam with the Citizens Investigation Team.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved."

Keenan's picture

"the rest of the readers here don't buy..."

Willy, what gives you the idea that you speak for the rest of the readers here? There are definitely certain things on which you are in the minority view point.

Even Gretavo disagrees with you that flyover is crap:

"To the extent that I have studied CIT's work and their flyover theory I think their evidence is compelling--it certainly makes more sense than the OCT." -Gretavo http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/2391

"one of the anti flyover arguments I don't buy is the argument that since only one or two people have reported seeing anything fly off away from the Pentagon that it couldn't have happened (since if it had so many other people would have reported the same thing.)...Are we to believe that if [the media] had found a witness who said "no no I saw the plane approach and it went over the building when something exploded there" they were going to air that? It's unlikely enough that anyone happened to be looking in the right direction to have a clear view of a flyover, it is even more unlikely that they would have been found by a reporter looking for comments, and more unlikely still that such an account would have been publicized given the fact that we know the media have been complicit in the coverup." -Gretavo http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/2391#comment-17311

Some interesting poll results: http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/3072

What's up with David Chandler and Jonathan Cole's recent statement on the Pentagon?

Chandler is a fake truther with an agenda to promote the official story with regard to the Pentagon.
15% (7 votes)

Chandler is honest but has been duped by Jim Hoffman and Victoria (Victronix) Ashley into denouncing CIT.
53% (25 votes)

Chandler is honest but has been duped by a joint CIT/Hoffman squeeze play.
32% (15 votes)

_______________

So, it appears that you are in the minority viewpoint here regarding your assessment of CIT as disinfo, sorry to say.

willyloman's picture

What part of this sentence do you not understand Keenan?

"Tell your mouse friend the rest of the readers here don't buy his "poor me, beat up by the mean gretavo" act"

Where in that sentence do the words "CIT" or "Flyover crap" show up?

Perhaps you are trying to suggest without saying so that you think Gretavo was being harsh on the (Adam)mouse? Is that what you are trying to say, without saying it?

Or did you just want to morph my comment into something you could use to try and throw some support behind CIT's flyover theory? Kind of "spin it" as it were.

Or, is this a holdover from something a bit older between you and me?

Either way, it should be pretty obvious... I NEVER said that I speak for the other readers here with regard to CIT AND you never addressed the main point of my comment (and Gretavo's) which was (Adam)mouse's pathetic attempt to use emotional blackmail in his earlier comment.

Now, let me repeat that last sentence so that when you spin this one, everyone can see what it is I was actually saying:

"Either way, it should be pretty obvious... I NEVER said that I speak for the other readers here with regard to CIT AND you never addressed the main point of my comment (and Gretavo's) which was (Adam)mouse's pathetic attempt to use emotional blackmail in his earlier comment."

Curious how you immediately attack me for something I didn't say, while giving (Adam)mouse a pass on his OBVIOUSLY trollish behavior.

(besides... since when did you start speaking for Gretavo?)

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

Keenan's picture

Oh please, willy...

you are about the most insincere poster who is allowed to post here regularly at WTCD, I have to say. As if people can't see right through you...as if people can't read all your previous baseless TruthAction-style ad honimems against CIT?

I have no problem with anyone making honest informed criticisms of CIT (or other issues) based on actual facts, as I've done myself.

Whenever you are willing to use honest arguments based on valid logic backed up by evidence, I'll take you seriously. When you resort to your all-too-often crap arguments with no substance, and then imply that you represent the views of others here, well, I'll call it like I see it.

gretavo's picture

can we nip this one in the bud?

I think there's plenty of material on this site to establish what everyone thinks about CIT and the fly-over theory. I personally don't trust the former but believe the latter to be quite possible. Others are entitled to their own positions which I don't hold against them in any way. Adam Syed decided he could no longer in good conscience post on a site where I was free to suggest that CIT and those promoting them might be disinfo. Fair enough. How about we not waste any more time on rehashing these tired old disagreements and move one to find tired *new* disagreements? :)

I'm also happy to create a thread called "the Keenan/Willyloman mosh pit" if you guys want, where you can trade insults to your hearts' content, but honestly? I think you'd be the only two reading it. Bottom line--we disagree. We get it. Let's not deny the fact or hide it but let's not let it become cognitive infiltration-type disruption, in effect if not intent!

willyloman's picture

oops. I had already been writing the comment below...

.. while you were writing this. Feel free to erase it if you wish. You know me, when someone baits, I bite. In all fairness, it's about CIT and their behavior (which apparently you don't like either) and not Keenan.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

willyloman's picture

Now, since you decided to bring this up... again...

I'm glad you linked back to that thread. First of all, that first comment you proudly put up of Gretavo's in order to speak for him (like I didn't do) that comment is from 2009 - it's about a year and a half old. And it certainly was not an indorcement of CIT's fly-over theory, even back then.

That's the first thing.

But let's move on for the rest of the readers here. That's a great link... people should go read the entire comment section, cus Aldo just happens to show up (wonder who called him) and this is the kind of logic and emotional blackmail tactics that HE tries to use as well.

"There is NO evidence for a global hawk. Why in the world would swap our hard evidence (which you call a "theory") for an unsupported "theory"? The global hawk, much like the missile, was a useful tool of disinformation. Again, there was NO global hawk." Aldo M. of CIT

"Hard evidence"? Since when did Off-the-record, unofficial statements from Pentagon and Department of the Army employees become "hard evidence" in the Truth movement?

Especially when they claim what they saw hit the Pentagon?

The hard evidence that something OTHER than flight 77 hit the Pentagon is in fact... hard evidence.

Pieces of fuselage that are too small to belong to a 757-200, that's one, a video (6 frames) of something flying level across the Pentalawn and hitting the Pentagon, that's two, parts that don't match size of the engines of the 757-200, that's three, radar tracking of something flying into the Pentagon and NOT flying away, that's four...

Obviously we can go on and on with Aldo's responses... but why? Oh well, let me give you a few...

1."You are behaving exactly as a disinfo operative would."

2."you are really starting to come off like a provocateur"

3."You are behaving EXACTLY like the cointel types I have ran into elsewhere"

4."Jim Hoffman is that you? LOL."

5."You go on with your conspiracy theory."

6."no need for more baseless conspiracy theories"

This is what you get when dealing with CIT and not accepting their unofficial, off-the-record, Pentagon employee's statements as "scientific proof".

And I am certainly not alone in the Truth community when it comes to questioning the validity of this kind of logic. Nor am I alone when comes to having been verbally attacked by Aldo and company for simply raising questions about their "research".

There is an interesting short chat between Kate and Aldo as well... Kate states that she believes it was something made to look like Flight 77 as I did... Aldo jumps in and flatly states "There was no missile/drone, Kate." and AGAIN he wrongly states there is no evidence for a drone and claims his "witnesses" (which can't be called witnesses because witnesses testify under oath) are real evidence. Kate asks Aldo about April Gallop and what kind of witness she is, and he never answered her. In a year and a half, he never answered her.

I recommend that everyone go and read the entire thread.

http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/2391

The only thing that Aldo states definitively is that something other than Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon is a "conspiracy theory".

What does that sound like to anyone here?

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

kate of the kiosk's picture

actually

Kate asks Aldo about April Gallop and what kind of witness she is, and he never answered her. In a year and a half, he never answered her

actually, i recall him referring to a video interview he/they did with April..I seem to recall it was not quality, very dark, she was either tired or maybe intimidated, and it certainly was not as forthcoming  and confident as her Guns and Butter testimony: "What didn't hit the pentagon".  also, when i posted a link to a vid i had found showing the pentagon "explosion" with no flyover, he/they on the dfensive claimed it to be possible video fakery. i do not like CIT.

Annoymouse's picture

... encourage others to tell it like they see it

Gladly. I thought Bollyn's 12/25/10 expose on you was pretty damning, and your "response", a few hollow ad-hom's Bollyn's way, was shockingly weak sauce which served to further punctuate questions about you.

But I trust you'll continue your chutzpah-maneuvering routine, posturing as playing on offense, accusing everyone else of being "agents", "provocateurs", "Adam" etc etc, to predictable cheers & strokes from the microscopic WTCD clique. Carry on.

gretavo's picture

pretty damning huh?

He reposted a ridiculous (you did read the whole thing right? I encourage it, actually!) screed that Jo Cressy (aka Col. Jenny Sparks) had already dug up on the internets well before him in a desperate attempt to find something bad to say about me. It was written by a guy who used to sell anti-Bush bumper stickers at our weekly anti-war protests in Harvard Square. He was not a local, and had a convoluted story he told of being the target of an online harassment campaign stemming from his past work in a defense-related tech company. A year or so into our acquaintance he began posting his screed, which would constantly evolve and include ever more broad accusations against myself and other demonstrators, on every website that would let him, to the point where I decided I couldn't be bothered to contact every single site complaining of the defamation. I think it's best, actually, to let the crap stay up because by its ridiculous and obviously fraudulent nature people can deduce a lot about both me and the people who call attention to it. About me, that the best "dirt" people can dig up is a lunatic (or more likely a provocateur's) rant, and about them that they are sloppy and desperate to try to discredit me by any means possible. I should add that it was Kevin Barrett who publicized a letter I wrote in his support (without seeking my consent, though I would have readily given it at the time) who ultimately enabled the fake truthers to deduce my true identity. Unlike most of the fake truthers, I am indeed a real person honestly seeking the truth, so this was obviously a tactic to intimidate me (the fakers have even contacted people at my workplace using assumed names in an attempt to get me in trouble, attempts that were uniformly laughed at and dismissed as kookery.)

So you're a Bollyn fan eh? Do you also, like him, believe that white people shouldn't betray their race by marrying black people? Would you believe that being Puerto Rican and thereby being a product of all kinds of miscegenation I might in fact not be surprised at his eagerness to smear me?

Annoymouse's picture

How does one log in if there is no link to register?

How do you register in order to post comments here? I see no link or even contact info. Is this an invitation only forum? I wanted to answer Gretavo as to who I am.

~Lips Malloy

gretavo's picture

email me at...

... rt (ATTA) wtcdemolition (dot com)