DRG Addresses "Left-leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement"

Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement: Do You Really Believe in Miracles?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20039
[References as cited in the text are available at globalresearch -- c455]
by David Ray Griffin
An Open Letter to Terry Allen, Noam Chomsky, Alexander Cockburn, David Corn, Chris Hayes, George Monbiot, Matthew Rothschild, and Matt Taibbi.1
According to several left-leaning critics of the 9/11 Truth Movement, some of its central claims, especially about the destruction of the World Trade Center, show its members to be scientifically challenged. In the opinion of some of these critics, moreover, claims made by members of this movement are sometimes unscientific in the strongest possible sense, implying an acceptance of magic and miracles.
After documenting this charge in Part I of this essay, I show in Part II that the exact opposite is the case: that the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center implies miracles (I give nine examples), and that the 9/11 Truth Movement, in developing an alternative hypothesis, has done so in line with the assumption that the laws of nature did not take a holiday on 9/11. In Part III, I ask these left-leaning critics some questions evoked by the fact that it is they, not members of the 9/11 Truth Movement, who have endorsed a conspiracy theory replete with miracle stories as well as other absurdities.
I The Charge that 9/11 Truth Theories Rest on Unscientific, Even Magical, Beliefs
Several left-leaning critics of the 9/11 Truth Movement, besides showing contempt for its members, charge them with relying on claims that are contradicted by good science and, in some cases, reflect a belief in magic. By “magic,” they mean miracles, understood as violations of basic principles of the physical sciences.
For example, Alexander Cockburn, who has referred to members of the 9/11 Truth Movement as “9/11 conspiracy nuts,”3 quoted with approval a philosopher who, speaking of “the 9-11 conspiracy cult,” said that its “main engine . . . is . . . the death of any conception of evidence,” resulting in “the ascendancy of magic over common sense, let alone reason.”4 Also, Cockburn assured his readers: “The conspiracy theory that the World Trade Centre towers were demolished by explosive charges previously placed within them is probably impossible.”5 With regard to Building 7 of the World Trade Center, Cockburn claimed (in 2006) that the (2002) report by FEMA was “more than adequate.”6
Likewise, George Monbiot, referring to members of the 9/11 Truth Movement as “fantasists,” “conspiracy idiots,” and “morons,” charged that they “believe that [the Bush regime] is capable of magic.”7
Matt Taibbi, saying that the “9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid” and referring to its members as “idiots,” wrote with contempt about the “alleged scientific impossibilities” in the official account of 9/11; about the claim that “the towers couldn't have fallen the way they did [without the aid of explosives]”; of the view (held by “9/11 Truthers”) that “it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick”; and of “the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.” He had been assured by “scientist friends,” he added, that “[a]ll of the 9/11 science claims” are “rank steaming bullshit.”8
Chris Hayes, writing in The Nation in 2006, did not stoop to the kind of name-calling employed by Cockburn, Monbiot, and Taibbi. Also, he knew, he admitted, of “eyewitness accounts of [people] who heard explosions in the World Trade Center.” And he was aware that “jet fuel burns at 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit [whereas] steel melts at 2,500.” He asserted, nevertheless, that “the evidence shows [a 9/11 conspiracy] to be virtually impossible,” so that the 9/11 Truth Movement’s conspiracy theory is “wrongheaded and a terrible waste of time.”9
Noam Chomsky has also declared that the available facts, when approached scientifically, refute the 9/11 Truth Movement. Speaking of evidence provided by this movement to show that 9/11 “was planned by the Bush Administration,” Chomsky declared: “If you look at the evidence, anybody who knows anything about the sciences would instantly discount that evidence.”10 In spite of his dismissive attitude, however, Chomsky in 2006 gave some helpful advice to people who believe they have physical evidence refuting the official account:
“There are ways to assess that: submit it to specialists . . . who have the requisite background in civil-mechanical engineering, materials science, building construction, etc., for review and analysis. . . . Or, . . . submit it to a serious journal for peer review and publication. To my knowledge, there isn't a single submission.”11
In These Times writer Terry Allen, in a 2006 essay entitled “The 9/11 Faith Movement,” assured her readers that “the facts [do not] support the conspiracists’ key charge that World Trade Center buildings were destroyed by pre-positioned explosives.”12
In an essay posted at AlterNet a few months after 9/11, David Corn used a purely a priori argument to demonstrate – at least to his own satisfaction – that 9/11 could not have been an inside job: “U.S. officials would [not have been] . . . good [capable] enough, evil enough, or gutsy enough.”13 In 2009, after having been silent about 9/11 for the intervening years, he addressed the issue again. Referring to “9/11 conspiracy silliness,” “9/11 conspiracy poison,” and “9/11 fabulists,” Corn declared:
“The 9/11 conspiracy . . . was always a load of bunk. You don't have to be an expert on skyscraper engineering . . . to know that [this theory] make[s] no sense.”14
Corn thereby implied that, whereas anyone can know that the 9/11 Truth Movement’s conspiracy theory is false, those people who are “expert[s] on skyscraper engineering” would have even more certain knowledge of this fact.
As to how people (such as himself) who are not experts on such matters could know this movement’s conspiracy theory to be “a load of bunk,” Corn again employed his three-point a priori argument, as re-worded in a later essay, according to which the Bush administration was “not that evil,” “not that ballsy,” and “not that competent.”15 Corn even referred to his three-point argument as “a tutorial that should persuade anyone that the 9/11 theory makes no sense.” Although this “tutorial” does not, of course, convince members of the 9/11 Truth Movement, Corn explained this fact by saying: “I have learned from experience that people who believe this stuff are not open to persuasion.”16
In any case, although his argument against the inside-job theory was almost entirely a priori, he did make the above-mentioned suggestion that one’s a priori certitude would be reinforced by people, such as “expert[s] on skyscraper engineering,” who have relevant types of expertise to evaluate the empirical evidence.
A fuller statement of the general claim made by these authors - that the 9/11 Truth Movement is based on unscientific claims – was formulated by Matthew Rothschild, the editor of The Progressive. In an essay entitled “Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Already,” Rothschild wrote:
“Here’s what the conspiracists believe: 9/11 was an inside job. . . . [T]he Twin Towers fell not because of the impact of the airplanes and the ensuing fires but because [of] explosives. Building 7, another high-rise at the World Trade Center that fell on 9/11, also came down by planted explosives. . . . I'm amazed at how many people give credence to these theories. . . . [S]ome of the best engineers in the country have studied these questions and come up with perfectly logical, scientific explanations for what happened. . . . At bottom, the 9/11 conspiracy theories are profoundly irrational and unscientific. It is more than passing strange that progressives, who so revere science on such issues as tobacco, stem cells, evolution, and global warming, are so willing to abandon science and give in to fantasy on the subject of 9/11.”17
However, in spite of the confidence with which these critics have made their charges, the truth is the complete opposite: It is the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center, which has been endorsed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), that is profoundly unscientific (partly because it ignores a massive amount of evidence pointing to use of explosives18), and it is precisely for this reason that the 9/11 Truth Movement has come up with an alternative explanation – namely, that the WTC buildings were brought down in the procedure known as “controlled demolition.”
II Miracles Implied by NIST’s Explanation of the WTC’s Destruction
The main reason why NIST’s theory of the destruction of the World Trade Center is profoundly unscientific is that it cannot be accepted without endorsing miracles, in the sense of violations of fundamental principles of physics and chemistry. I will demonstrate this point in terms of nine miracles implied by NIST’s accounts of the destruction of Building 7 of the World Trade Center (WTC 7) and the Twin Towers (WTC 1 and 2).
1. The Fire-Induced Collapse of WTC 7: An Apparent Miracle
WTC 7 was a 47-story building that, although it was not hit by a plane, came down at 5:21 PM that day. Unlike the collapse of the Twin Towers, the collapse of this building was not publicized. The 9/11 Commission Report, for example, did not even mention it.19 Many people have, accordingly, never heard of this building’s collapse. A Zogby poll in 2006, for example, found that 43 percent of the American people were still unaware that a third WTC building had collapsed, and even though NIST’s report on its collapse appeared in 2008, many people today still do not know that this building also came down.20 For the purposes of the present essay, in any case, the main point is that, insofar as people profess belief in the official account of this building’s collapse as articulated by NIST, they imply an acceptance of several miracles.
I begin with a fact about WTC 7’s collapse that at least appears to entail a miracle: that it was (according to the official account) the first steel-frame high-rise building in the known universe to be brought down solely by fire. The Twin Towers were hit by airliners, so the official account could attribute their collapses to the airplane impacts as well as to the ensuing fires. But WTC 7 was not hit by a plane, so its collapse apparently had to be attributed to fire alone.
The unprecedented nature of a fire-induced collapse of a steel-frame high-rise building was expressed a couple of months after 9/11 by New York Times reporter James Glanz. Calling the collapse of WTC 7 “a mystery,” Glanz reported that “experts said no building like it, a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise, had ever collapsed because of an uncontrolled fire.” Glanz also quoted a structural engineer as saying: “[W]ithin the structural engineering community, [WTC 7] is considered to be much more important to understand [than the Twin Towers],” because engineers had no answer to the question, “why did 7 come down?”21
The mystery was not lessened in 2002 when FEMA issued the first official report on this building’s collapse. Saying that its “best hypothesis” was that flaming debris from the collapse of the North Tower had ignited diesel fuel stored in the building, resulting in large, steel-weakening fires that made the building collapse, FEMA admitted that this hypothesis had “only a low probability of occurrence”22 (although Alexander Cockburn years later, as we saw above, would declare this report to be “more than adequate”).
This cautionary statement by FEMA did not, however, prevent defenders of the official account from claiming that WTC 7’s collapse was not really very mysterious after all. In a 2006 book, Popular Mechanics told its readers what they could probably expect to find in the report on this building to be put out by NIST – which had taken over from FEMA the responsibility for issuing the official reports on the Twin Towers and WTC 7. Citing NIST’s “current working hypothesis,” Popular Mechanics said that WTC 7’s diesel fuel had probably fed the fires “for up to seven hours.”23
Also, using NIST’s then-current thinking in order to claim that “WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated,” Popular Mechanics argued that critics could not reject the official account on the grounds that it would make WTC 7 the first steel-frame high-rise to have failed “because of fire alone,” because, Popular Mechanics claimed, the causes of WTC 7’s collapse were analogous to the causes of the collapses of WTC 1 and WTC 2: “A combination of physical damage from falling debris [analogous to the damage caused in the Twin Towers by the airplane impacts] and prolonged exposure to the resulting [diesel-fuel-fed] fires [analogous to the jet-fuel-fed fires in the Twin Towers].”24
Popular Mechanics called this twofold explanation a “conclusion” that had been reached by “hundreds of experts from academia and private industry, as well as the government.” This claim evidently impressed many people, including Chris Hayes and Matthew Rothschild, both of whom said that Popular Mechanics had disproved the claims of the 9/11 Truth Movement. Rothschild, repeating Popular Mechanics’ twofold explanation, wrote:
“Building 7 . . . is a favorite of the conspiracy theorists, since the planes did not strike this structure. But the building did sustain damage from the debris of the Twin Towers. ‘On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom - approximately ten stories – about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out,’ Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator for the National Institute of Standards and Technology, told Popular Mechanics. What's more, the fire in the building lasted for about eight hours, in part because there were fuel tanks in the basement and on some of the floors.”25
Hayes, saying that “Popular Mechanics assembled a team of engineers, physicists, flight experts and the like to critically examine some of the Truth Movement's most common claims,” reported that these experts “found them almost entirely without merit.” This counter-claim by Popular Mechanics evidently settled the matter for Hayes.26
Also, although Terry Allen did not mention Popular Mechanics, her article was apparently dependent on it. Assuring her readers that she had found it “relatively easy” to undermine the “facts” employed by the 9/11 Truth Movement, she wrote:
“Many conspiracists offer the collapse of WTC Building 7 as the strongest evidence for the kind of controlled demolition that would prove a plot. Although not hit by planes, it was damaged by debris, and suffered fires eventually fueled by up to 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored near ground level.”27
Like Rothschild, therefore, she gave the same twofold explanation for WTC 7’s collapse that had been provided by Popular Mechanics.28
However, when NIST finally issued its WTC 7 report in 2008, it did not affirm either element in the twofold explanation that had been proffered by Popular Mechanics. With regard to the first element, NIST said: “[F]uel oil fires did not play a role in the collapse of WTC 7.”29 With regard to the second element, NIST said: “Other than initiating the fires in WTC 7, the damage from the debris from WTC 1 [the North Tower] had little effect on initiating the collapse of WTC 7.”30
This second point means that, contrary to what Popular Mechanics had claimed it would say, NIST actually asserted that WTC 7 was brought down by fire, at least primarily. In NIST’s words, the collapse of WTC 7 was “the first known instance of the total collapse of a [steel-frame] tall building primarily due to fires.”31
One ambiguity needs clearing up: Although in these just-quoted statements, NIST seemed to indicate that the debris damage had a “little effect” on initiating the collapse, so that this collapse was only primarily (rather than entirely) due to fire, NIST generally treated fire as the sole cause: Besides repeatedly speaking of a “fire-induced” collapse,32 Also, in a press release announcing its Draft for Public Comment in August 2008, NIST called the collapse of WTC 7 “the first known instance of fire causing the total collapse of a tall building.” This press release, moreover, quoted lead investigator Shyam Sunder as saying: “Our study found that the fires in WTC 7 . . . caused an extraordinary event.”33 The brief version of NIST’s final report said: “Even without the structural damage, WTC 7 would have collapsed from fires having the same characteristics as those experienced on September 11, 2001.”34 The long version said: “WTC 7 sustained damage to its exterior as a result of falling debris from the collapse of WTC 1, but this damage was found to have no effect on the collapse initiating event.”35
It is not wrong, therefore, to say that NIST portrayed WTC 7 as the first (and thus far only) steel-frame high-rise building to have come down because of fire alone. NIST said, in other words, precisely what Popular Mechanics, knowing that claims about unprecedented physical events are deeply suspect, had assured people it would not say.
In doing so, moreover, NIST contradicted both parts of Popular Mechanics’ explanation for WTC 7’s collapse, which, according to Rothschild and Allen, had provided the basis for discounting the 9/11 Truth Movement’s claims about this collapse. To review: Rothschild said that the official account was credible, contrary to the Truth Movement’s claims, because “the building did sustain damage from the debris of the Twin Towers” and the “fire in the building lasted for about eight hours,” due to the “fuel tanks in the basement and on some of the floors.” Allen likewise said the official account was believable because, although WTC 7 was not hit by a plane, “it was damaged by debris, and suffered fires eventually fueled by up to 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored near ground level.”36
But then, when NIST later denied that either the debris-damage or the diesel fuel played a role in the collapse of WTC 7, Rothschild and Allen did not retract their prior assurances. It seems that they, in effect, simply said – like Gilda Radner on Saturday Night Live in the 1970s – “Never mind.” Their attitude seemed to be, in other words, that whatever the government says, that is what they will believe. Whatever kind of journalism this is, it is certainly not truth-seeking journalism.
In any case, NIST’s claim that WTC 7 suffered an unprecedented, fire-induced collapse is made even more problematic by the fact that the fires in this building were relatively unimpressive, compared with fires in some other steel-frame high-rises. In 1991, a huge fire in Philadelphia’s One Meridian Plaza lasted for 18 hours and gutted eight of the building’s 38 floors. In Caracas in 2004, a fire in a 50-story building raged for 17 hours, completely gutting the building’s top 20 floors. In neither case, however, did the building, or even a single floor, collapse.37
In WTC 7, by contrast, there were long-lasting fires on only six of the building’s 47 floors, according to NIST, and by “long-lasting,” NIST meant only that they lasted up to seven hours.38 It would be exceedingly strange, therefore, if fire had produced a total collapse of this building. The claim becomes even stranger when one discovers that NIST had no evidence that the fires on any of the floors lasted for much over three hours.39
Accordingly, besides undermining the confident explanations of WTC 7’s collapse offered by Popular Mechanics, NIST’s conclusion about this building - that it was the first steel-frame high-rise building ever to be brought down by fire – appears to constitute a rather remarkable miracle-claim.
2. WTC 7’s Collapse: A Perfect Imitation of an Implosion
More clearly miraculous, given the official account, was the precise way in which WTC 7 collapsed: symmetrically (straight down, with an almost perfectly horizontal roofline), into its own footprint. In order for this symmetrical collapse to occur, all the (vertical) steel columns supporting the building had to fail simultaneously. There were 82 of these columns, so the fire theory of WTC 7’s collapse entails that the fires in this building caused all 82 of these columns to fail at the same instant.
Even if otherwise possible, such a symmetrical failure would have been essentially impossible even if the building had been entirely engulfed by fire, so that all the floors would have been evenly covered with fire. As it was, however, there were fires on only a few floors, and these fires never covered an entire floor at the same time. The official account implies, therefore, that a very asymmetrical pattern of fires produced an entirely symmetrical collapse. If that is not a genuine miracle, it will do until one comes along.
Another problem is the fact that, even if a symmetrical, total collapse could be caused by an asymmetrical pattern of fires, a fire theory could not explain the sudden onset of WTC 7’s collapse. Popular Mechanics, which is unreliable on every aspect of 9/11 (as I showed in my 2007 book, Debunking 9/11 Debunking40), apparently misled Chris Hayes on this point by suggesting otherwise. Attempting to illustrate his claim that Popular Mechanics had shown the core ideas of the 9/11 Truth Movement to be “almost entirely without merit,” Hayes wrote:
“To pick just one example, steel might not melt at 1,500 degrees [Fahrenheit], the temperature at which jet fuel burns, but it does begin to lose a lot of its strength, enough to cause the support beams to fail.”41
However, even if the fire could have heated the steel up to this temperature in the time available (which would have been impossible42), the fire would have weakened the steel gradually, causing it to start sagging. Videos would, therefore, show deformations in the building before it came down. But they do not. One moment the building was perfectly immobile, and the next moment, as videos show,43 it was accelerating downward in free fall (the significance of free fall will be discussed below). As Australian chemist Frank Legge has observed: “There is no sign of the slow start that would be expected if collapse was caused by the gradual softening of the steel.”44
Because of these two features of the collapse, anyone knowing anything about such things can tell, simply by seeing a video of WTC 7’s collapse, that it was brought down in the procedure known as “controlled demolition.” For example, Daniel Hofnung, an engineer in Paris, has written:
“In the years after [the] 9/11 events, I thought that all I read in professional reviews and French newspapers was true. The first time I understood that it was impossible was when I saw a film about the collapse of WTC 7.”45
Kansas City civil engineer Chester Gearhart wrote:
“I have watched the construction of many large buildings and also have personally witnessed 5 controlled demolitions in Kansas City. When I saw the towers fall on 9/11, I knew something was wrong and my first instinct was that it was impossible. When I saw building 7 fall, I knew it was a controlled demolition.”46
Jack Keller, emeritus professor of engineering at Utah State University (who had been named by Scientific American as one of the world’s leaders in using science and technology to benefit society), wrote simply of WTC 7’s collapse: “Obviously it was the result of controlled demolition.”47
In revealing the collapse of WTC 7 to be an example of controlled demolition, moreover, the videos show it to be the type of controlled demolition known as “implosion,” in which explosives and/or incendiaries are used to slice the building’s steel support columns so as to cause the building to collapse into its own footprint.
In 2006, for example, a Dutch filmmaker asked Danny Jowenko, the owner of a controlled demolition company in the Netherlands, to comment on a video of the collapse of WTC 7, without telling him what it was. (Jowenko had been unaware that a third building had collapsed in New York on 9/11.) After viewing the video, Jowenko said: “They simply blew up columns, and the rest caved in afterwards. . . . This is controlled demolition.” When asked if he was certain, he replied: “Absolutely, it’s been imploded. This was a hired job. A team of experts did this.”48
Moreover, the reason to implode a building, rather than simply causing it to fall over sideways, is to avoid damaging nearby buildings, and engineering an implosion is no mean feat. An implosion, in the words of a controlled demolition website, is “by far the trickiest type of explosive project,” which “only a handful of blasting companies in the world . . . possess enough experience . . . to perform.”49 Mark Loizeaux, the president of the afore-mentioned demolition firm, Controlled Demolition, Inc., has explained why: “[T]o bring [a building] down . . . so . . . no other structure is harmed,” the demolition must be “completely planned,” using “the right explosive [and] the right pattern of laying the charges.”50
Would it not be a miracle if a fire-induced collapse, based on scattered fires on a few of WTC 7’s floors, had produced a collapse that perfectly imitated the kind of planned, controlled demolition that can be carried out by only a few companies in the world?
Chris Hayes suggested that the 9/11 Truth Movement, by doubting the government’s account of 9/11, exemplifies a resurgence of the “paranoid style” in American politics. But in accepting the government’s account, as defended by the pseudo-scientific Popular Mechanics, he illustrated the other target of his article, the “credulous style,” which, he pointed out, is generally exemplified by the American media.51 Surely, however, his credulity does not extend to the acceptance of miracles.
3. WTC 7’s Descent in Absolute Free Fall
Even if some readers question whether the two previously discussed features of the collapse of WTC 7, when understood within the framework of NIST’s fire theory, imply miracles, there can be no doubt about a third feature: the now-accepted (albeit generally unpublicized) fact that WTC 7 came down in absolute free fall for over two seconds.
Although members of the 9/11 Truth Movement had long been pointing out that this building descended at the same rate as a free-falling object, or at least virtually so, NIST had long denied this. As late as August 2008, when NIST issued its report on WTC 7 in the form of a Draft for Public Comment, it claimed that the time it took for the upper floors – the only floors that are visible on the videos - to come down “was approximately 40 percent longer than the computed free fall time and was consistent with physical principles.”52
As this statement implied, any assertion that the building did come down in free fall, assuming a non-engineered collapse, would not be consistent with physical principles – meaning basic laws of Newtonian physics. Explaining why not during a “WTC 7 Technical Briefing” on August 26, 2008, NIST’s Shyam Sunder said:
“[A] free fall time would be [the fall time of] an object that has no structural components below it. . . . [T]he . . . time that it took . . . for those 17 floors to disappear [was roughly 40 percent longer than free fall]. And that is not at all unusual, because there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case. And you had a sequence of structural failures that had to take place. Everything was not instantaneous.”53
In saying this, Sunder was presupposing NIST’s theory that the building was brought down by fire, which, if it could have produced a collapse of any type, could have produced only a progressive collapse.
In response, high-school physics teacher David Chandler, who was allowed to submit a question at this briefing, challenged Sunder’s denial of free fall, stating that Sunder’s “40 percent longer” claim contradicted “a publicly visible, easily measurable quantity.”54 Chandler then placed a video on the Internet showing that, by measuring this publicly visible quantity, anyone understanding elementary physics could see that “for about two and a half seconds. . . , the acceleration of the building is indistinguishable from freefall.”55 (This is, of course, free fall through the air, not through a vacuum.)
In its final report on WTC 7, which came out in November 2008, NIST – rather amazingly - admitted free fall. Dividing the building’s descent into three stages, NIST described the second phase as “a freefall descent over approximately eight stories at gravitational acceleration for approximately 2.25 s[econds].”56 NIST thereby accepted Chandler’s case – except for maintaining that the building was in absolute free fall for only 2.25, not 2.5, seconds (a trivial difference). NIST thereby affirmed a miracle, meaning a violation of one or more laws of physics.
Why this would be a miracle was explained by Chandler, who said: “Free fall can only be achieved if there is zero resistance to the motion.”57 In other words, the upper portion of Building 7 could have come down in free fall only if something had suddenly removed all the steel and concrete in the lower part of the building, which would have otherwise provided resistance (to make a considerable understatement). If everything had not been removed and the upper floors had come down in free fall anyway, even if for only a fraction of a second, this would have been a miracle – meaning a violation of physical principles. Explaining one of the physical principles involved, Chandler said:
“Anything at an elevated height has gravitational potential energy. If it falls, and none of the energy is used for other things along the way, all of that energy is converted into kinetic energy – the energy of motion, and we call it ‘free fall.’ If any of the energy is used for other purposes, there will be less kinetic energy, so the fall will be slower. In the case of a falling building, the only way it can go into free fall is if an external force removes the supporting structure. None of the gravitational potential energy of the building is available for this purpose, or it would slow the fall of the building.”58
That was what Sunder himself had explained, on NIST’s behalf, the previous August, saying that a free-falling object would be one “that has no structural components below it” to offer resistance. But NIST then in November, while still under Sunder’s leadership and still defending its fire theory of WTC 7’s collapse, agreed that, as an empirical fact, free fall happened. For a period of 2.25 seconds, NIST admitted, the descent of WTC 7 was characterized by “gravitational acceleration (free fall).”59
Besides pointing out that the free fall descent of WTC 7 implied that the building had been professionally demolished, Chandler observed that this conclusion is reinforced by two features of the collapse mentioned above:
“[P]articularly striking is the suddenness of onset of free fall. Acceleration doesn’t build up gradually. . . . The building went from full support to zero support, instantly. . . . One moment, the building is holding; the next moment it lets go and is in complete free fall. . . . The onset of free fall was not only sudden; it extended across the whole width of the building. . . . The fact that the roof stayed level shows the building was in free fall across the entire width. The collapse we see cannot be due to a column failure, or a few column failures, or a sequence of column failures. All 24 interior columns and 58 perimeter columns had to have been removed . . . simultaneously, within a small fraction of a second.”60
For its part, NIST, knowing that it had affirmed a miracle by agreeing that WTC 7 had entered into free fall, no longer claimed that its analysis was consistent with the laws of physics. Back in its August draft, in which it was still claiming that the collapse occurred 40 percent slower than free fall, NIST had said – in a claim made three times – that its analysis was “consistent with physical principles.”61 In the final report, however, every instance of this phrase was removed. NIST thereby almost explicitly admitted that its report on WTC 7, by affirming absolute free fall while continuing to deny that either incendiaries or explosives had been employed, is not consistent with basic principles of physics.
Accordingly, now that it is established that WTC 7 came down in absolute free fall for over two seconds, one cannot accept the official theory, according to which this building was not professionally demolished, without implying that at least one miracle happened on 9/11.
George Monbiot, as we saw, described members of this movement as “morons” who “believe that [the Bush regime] is capable of magic.” Unless Monbiot, upon becoming aware of NIST’s admission of free fall, changes his stance, he will imply that al-Qaeda is capable of magic.
Matthew Rothschild said he was “amazed” at how many people hold the “profoundly irrational and unscientific” belief that “Building 7 . . . came down by planted explosives.” Given the fact that progressive members of the 9/11 Truth Movement “so revere science on such issues as tobacco, stem cells, evolution, and global warming,” Rothschild continued, it is “more than passing strange that [they] are so willing to abandon science and give in to fantasy on the subject of 9/11.”
NIST’s report on WTC 7, however, provided the final proof that the 9/11 Truth Movement had been right all along – that those progressives who credulously accept the Bush-Cheney administration’s explanation for WTC 7’s collapse are the ones who “abandon science and give in to fantasy on the subject of 9/11.”
4. The Twin Towers: Descending in Virtual Free Fall
Miracles are implied not only by the official account of WTC 7’s collapse but also by the official account of the destruction of the Twin Towers. According to this account, the North Tower (WTC 1) and the South Tower (WTC 2) came down because of three and only three causes: (i) the airplane impacts, which caused structural damage; (ii) the ensuing fires, which were initially fed and spread by jet fuel from the planes; and (iii) gravity. NIST’s negative claim here is that neither explosives nor incendiaries helped bring the buildings down.
One of the miracles implicit in this account is that, although each building had 287 steel support columns - 240 perimeter columns and 47 massive core columns – and although neither explosives nor incendiaries were used to destroy these columns, each building came down, as NIST itself put it, “essentially in free fall.”62 How would that have been possible?
According to NIST, each airliner took out several perimeter and core columns at its area of impact and also created huge fires, which began weakening the steel. After a period of time (56 minutes for the South Tower, 102 minutes for the North Tower), “the massive top section of [each] building at and above the fire and impact floors” fell down on the lower section, which “could not resist the tremendous energy released by [the top section’s] downward movement.”63 Accordingly, NIST’s report said:
“Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos.”64
Trying to describe more fully its theory of how this happened, NIST wrote:
“The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation. . . . As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass. In other words, the momentum [of the top stories] falling on the supporting structure below . . . so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that [the latter] was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass.”65
Even before we think about any specific law of physics violated by this account (assuming that no explosives or incendiaries were used to remove the steel columns), we can see intuitively that this explanation implies a miracle: As NIST critic Jim Hoffman has pointed out, it “requires us to believe that the massive steel frames of the [lower structure of the] towers provided no more resistance to falling rubble than [would] air.”66
As to why physics rules out NIST’s account, William Rice, who has both practiced and taught structural engineering, pointed out that NIST’s account “violates Newton’s Law of Conservation of Momentum,” which requires that, “as the stationary inertia of each floor is overcome by being hit,” the speed of descent must decrease.67 A paper by physicists and engineers published in an engineering journal agreed, stating:
“NIST evidently neglects a fundamental law of physics in glibly treating the remarkable ‘free fall’ collapse of each Tower, namely, the Law of Conservation of Momentum. This law of physics means that the hundreds of thousands of tons of material in the way must slow the upper part of the building because of its mass.”68
A letter to NIST signed by physicist Steven Jones, chemist Kevin Ryan, and architect Richard Gage, among others, made a similar point, saying:
“Basic principles of engineering (for example, the conservation of momentum principle) would dictate that the undamaged steel structure below the collapse initiation zone would, at the very least, resist and slow the downward movement of the stories above. There is, indeed, a good chance that the structural strength of the steelwork below would arrest the downward movement of the stories above.”69
NIST, as we saw above, claimed that the lower portion would not retard – let alone arrest - the downward movement of the upper part, because the “tremendous energy” of the upper part’s downward momentum would be irresistible. Let us examine this claim with regard to the North Tower. It was struck at the 95th floor, so the upper portion consisted of only 16 floors. Also, the structure at this height had relatively little weight to bear, compared with the structure lower down, so the steel columns in the upper part, above the area of impact, were much thinner than those in the lower part. This means that the upper 16 floors probably constituted less than 15 percent of the building’s total weight. Also, the top portion would have fallen only a story or two before hitting the lower portion, so it would not have acquired much velocity before striking the lower portion. For these reasons, the top portion would have not had much momentum, so its energy would not have been so “tremendous,” it would seem, as to be irresistible by the lower part, with its millions of pounds of interconnected steel.
This conclusion, based on a purely commonsense analysis, was confirmed by a technical analysis of the North Tower collapse by mechanical engineer Gordon Ross. Far from failing to retard the downward movement of the building’s upper portion, his analysis showed, the lower portion would have quickly and completely stopped the top portion’s descent. Having made the necessary calculations (which NIST failed to do), Ross concluded that the “vertical movement of the falling section would [have been] arrested . . . within 0.02 seconds after impact. A collapse driven only by gravity would not continue to progress beyond that point.”70
If Ross’s calculations are even close to accurate, then NIST’s account – according to which the Twin Towers came down “essentially in free fall,” even though they were not professionally demolished - implied two enormous miracles (one for each building).
Another element in NIST’s account, to be sure, is the claim that the fires in the buildings weakened the steel, so that it provided less resistance than normal. “[W]hen bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius,” NIST wrote, “it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value.”71 NIST thereby, without actually saying it, implied that the steel columns had been heated up to the point where they lost 90 percent of their strength.
NIST was in this way able to mislead some nonscientific journalists into thinking that fire could have caused the Twin Towers to collapse. Alexander Cockburn, stating that the collapses did not require preplaced explosives, said: “High grade steel can bend disastrously under extreme heat.”72 Chris Hayes, stating that the 9/11 Truth Movement’s claims about the Twin Towers are without merit, wrote (in a passage quoted earlier): “[S]teel might not melt at 1,500 degrees (Fahrenheit], the temperature at which jet fuel burns, but it does begin to lose a lot of its strength, enough to cause the support beams to fail.”73
However, the idea that steel heated up by fire could account for the collapses of the Twin Towers is wrong for at least two reasons. In the first place, even if the steel had indeed lost 90 percent of its strength, it would still have offered some resistance, because the law of conservation of momentum would not have taken a holiday. So a collapse “essentially in free fall” would have been impossible.
In the second place, there is no empirical basis for claiming that either tower’s steel had lost any strength, let alone 90 percent of it. On the one hand, as MIT engineering professor Thomas Eagar has pointed out, structural steel only “begins to soften around 425°C [797°F].”74 On the other hand, scientific studies on 16 perimeter columns carried out by NIST scientists found that “only three [of these perimeter] columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250?C [482?F].” These NIST scientists also found no evidence that even this temperature (250?C [482?F]) had been reached by any of the core columns.75
Accordingly, far from having evidence that any of the steel in the columns reached the temperature (1,000°C [1,832°F]) at which it would have lost 90 percent of its strength, NIST had no evidence that any of the columns would have lost even one percent of their strength. If neither explosives nor incendiaries were used to remove the 287 steel support columns, therefore, the top portion of the building came down through the lower portion as if it were not there, even though the steel in that portion was at full strength.
In claiming, therefore, that both of the Twin Towers came down essentially in free fall without the aid of either incendiaries or explosives, NIST implied enormous violations of the physical principle known as the conservation of momentum. Although Rothschild accused the 9/11 Truth Movement of being “irrational and unscientific,” this characterization applies instead to NIST’s report on the Twin Towers and anyone who accepts it.
5. The South Tower’s Mid-Air Miracles
Having illustrated the previous miracle primarily in terms of the North Tower, I turn now to a miracle unique to the South Tower. It was struck at the 80th floor, so that its upper portion consisted of a 30-floor block. As videos of the beginning of this building’s collapse show, this block began tipping toward the corner that had been most damaged by the airplane’s impact. According to the law of the conservation of angular momentum, this section should have fallen to the ground far outside the building’s footprint. “However,” Jim Hoffman and fellow 9/11 researcher Don Hoffman have observed,
“as the top then began to fall, the rotation decelerated. Then it reversed direction [even though the] law of conservation of angular momentum states that a solid object in rotation will continue to rotate at the same speed unless acted on by a torque.”76
And then, as if this were not miraculous enough:
“We observe [wrote physicist Steven Jones] that approximately 30 upper floors begin to rotate as a block, to the south and east. They begin to topple over, not fall straight down. The torque due to gravity on this block is enormous, as is its angular momentum. But then – and this I’m still puzzling over – this block turned mostly to powder in mid-air! How can we understand this strange behavior, without explosives?”77
If someone were to ask how even explosives could explain this behavior, we could turn to a statement by Mark Loizeaux, the president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. In response to an interviewer’s question as to how he made “doomed structures dance or walk,” Loizeaux said:
“[B]y differentially controlling the velocity of failure in different parts of the structure, you can make it walk, you can make it spin, you can make it dance. We've taken it and moved it, then dropped it or moved it, twisted it and moved it down further - and then stopped it and moved it again. We've dropped structures 15 storeys, stopped them and then laid them sideways. We'll have structures start facing north and end up going to the north-west.”78
If we suppose that explosives were used, therefore, we can understand the mid-air dance performed by the upper portion of the South Tower.
If we refuse to posit explosives, however, we are stuck with a major miracle: Although the upper block was rotating and tipping in such a way that its angular momentum should have caused it to fall down to the side, it somehow righted itself by disintegrating.
This disintegration, incidentally, further undermines the official theory, according to which the “tremendous energy” of this block’s downward momentum caused the lower part of the South Tower to collapse. This theory requires that the upper part smashed down, as a solid block, on the lower part. Videos show, however, that it did not. As Gage, Jones, Ryan, and other colleagues pointed out to NIST:
“[T]he upper portion of WTC 2 did not fall as a block upon the lower undamaged portion, but instead disintegrated as it fell. Thus, there would be no single large impact from a falling block . . . [but only] a series of small impacts as the fragments of the disintegrating upper portion arrived.”79
6. Horizontal Ejections from the Twin Towers
Dwain Deets, former director of the research engineering division at NASA’s Dryden Flight Research Center, has written that the “massive structural members being hurled horizontally” from the Twin Towers “leave no doubt” in his mind that “explosives were involved.”80
Deets was referring to the fact that the collapse of each of the Twin Towers began with a massive explosion near the top, during which huge sections of perimeter columns were ejected out horizontally so powerfully that some of them traveled 500 to 600 feet. Although this feature of the collapses was not mentioned in NIST’s (2005) report on the Twin Towers, there could be no doubt about it, because some of these sections of steel implanted themselves in neighboring buildings, as can be seen in videos and photographs.81
These ejections are now, in any case, part of the official account, because NIST, apparently finding them necessary to explain how fires got started in WTC 7, mentioned them in its report on this building. In Shyam Sunder’s opening statement at the August 2008 press briefing to announce the release of NIST’s final report on WTC 7, he said: “The debris from Tower 1 . . . started fires on at least 10 floors of the building.”82 NIST’s WTC 7 report said: “The fires in WTC 7 were ignited as a result of the impact of debris from the collapse of WTC 1, which was approximately 110 m[eters] (350 ft) to the south.”83
NIST thereby admitted that debris had been thrown out horizontally from the North Tower at least 350 feet.84 NIST’s report also stated:
“When WTC 1 collapsed at 10:28:22 AM, . . . some fragments [of debris] were forcibly ejected and traveled distances up to hundreds of meters. Pieces of WTC 1 hit WTC 7, severing six columns on Floors 7 through 17 on the south face and one column on the west face near the southwest corner. The debris also caused structural damage between Floor 44 and the roof.”85
Debris that caused such extensive damage, including the severing of seven steel columns, had to be quite heavy. NIST seemed to be granting, therefore, that sections of steel columns had been hurled at least 650 feet (because “hundreds of meters” would mean at least 200 meters, which would be about 650 feet). Enormous force would be needed to eject large sections of steel that far out.
What could have produced this force? According to NIST, as we saw earlier, there were only three causal factors in the collapse of the Twin Towers: the airplane impacts, the fires, and gravitational attraction. The airplane impacts had occurred 56 minutes (South Tower) and 102 minutes (North Tower) earlier, and gravitational attraction pulls things straight downward. Fire could, to be sure, produce horizontal ejections by causing jet fuel to explode, but the jet fuel had, NIST pointed out, burned up within “a few minutes.”86 Therefore, although NIST admitted that these horizontal ejections occurred, it suggested no energy source to explain them.
High explosives, such as RDX or nanothermite, could explain these horizontal ejections. According to NIST, however, explosives did not contribute to the destruction of the Twin Towers. Those who accept NIST’s account must, therefore, regard these horizontal ejections as constituting yet another miracle.
7. Metal-Melting Fires
In light of the above-discussed unprecedented effects produced by the fires in the WTC buildings (according to the official account), it would seem that these fires must have had miraculous powers. This conclusion is reinforced by an examination of still more extraordinary effects.
Swiss-Cheese Steel: Within a few months of 9/11, three professors from Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) had issued a brief report about a piece of steel recovered from the WTC 7 debris, stating that it had undergone “microstructural changes,” including “intergranular melting.”87 A greatly expanded version of this report, which contained a description of a similarly eroded piece of steel from one of the Twin Towers, was included as an appendix to the first official report on the destruction of the World Trade Center, which was issued by FEMA in 2002.88
A New York Times story, noting that parts of these pieces of steel had “melted away,” even though “no fire in any of the buildings was believed to be hot enough to melt steel outright,” said that these discoveries constituted “[p]erhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation.”89 Describing these mysterious pieces of steel more fully, an article in WPI’s magazine, entitled “The ‘Deep Mystery’ of Melted Steel,” said:
“[S]teel – which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit – may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet . . . [a] one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges – which are curled like a paper scroll – have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes – some larger than a silver dollar – let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending – but not holes.”90
One of the three WPI professors, Jonathan Barnett, was quoted by the Times as saying that the steel “appear[ed] to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures.”91
That the steel had actually evaporated – not merely melted – was also reported in another New York Times story. Professor Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl of the University of California at Berkeley, speaking of a horizontal I-beam from WTC 7, reportedly said: “Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized.”92
Why do these phenomena involve miracles? Because the fires could not possibly, even under the most ideal conditions (which did not obtain), have been hotter than 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit (the maximum possible temperature for hydrocarbon-based building fires, which these fires were said to be), whereas the melting and boiling points of steel are only slightly lower than those of iron, which are 2,800°F and 5,182°F, respectively.93 So if one accepts the official account, according to which all the heat was produced by the building fires, then one must believe that these fires had miraculous powers.
The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), which took over from FEMA the task of writing the official reports on the WTC, avoided this issue by simply not mentioning any of these pieces of steel, even though two of them had been discussed in a FEMA report appendix. NIST even claimed that no recovered steel from WTC 7 could be identified, because the steel used in this building, unlike that used in the Twin Towers, “did not contain . . . identifying characteristics.”94
In making this claim, however, NIST was clearly not being truthful. For one thing, it had previously published a document in which it had referred to steel recovered from WTC 7 – including the piece discussed by the WPI professors.95 Also, NIST’s claim about not identifying any WTC 7 steel was made in August 2008, shortly after the airing in July 2008 of a BBC program on WTC 7, in which one of those WPI professors, Jonathan Barnett, had discussed an “eroded and deformed” piece of steel from WTC 7, which he and his colleagues had studied in 2001. These professors knew “its pedigree,” Barnett explained, because “this particular kind of steel” had been used only in WTC 7, not in the Twin Towers.96
So, although it called the collapse of WTC 7 “the first known instance of fire causing the total collapse of a tall building,”97 NIST had demonstrated its awareness of a recovered piece of steel from this building that only a very miraculous fire could have produced. NIST was surely also aware of the similarly eroded piece of steel from one of the Twin Towers, which had likewise been reported by the WPI professors in their paper included as an appendix to the 2002 FEMA report.
If the fires in WTC 7 and the Twin Towers had miraculous powers, we would expect still more miraculous effects to have been discovered, and this was indeed the case.
Melted Iron: The RJ Lee Group, a scientific research organization, was hired by Deutsche Bank, which had a building close to the World Trade Center, to prove that the dust contaminating its building after 9/11 was not ordinary building dust, as its insurance company claimed, but had resulted from the destruction of the World Trade Center. The RJ Lee Group’s reports showed that the dust in the bank’s building shared the unique chemical signature of the WTC dust, part of which was “[s]pherical iron . . . particles.”98 There were, moreover, an enormous number of these particles: Whereas iron particles constitute only 0.04 percent of normal building dust, they constituted (a whopping) 5.87 percent of the WTC dust.99 The existence of these particles, the RJ Lee Group said, proved that iron had “melted during the WTC Event.”100 The scientists conducting the EPA’s WTC dust signature study, incidentally, had at one time considered including “iron spheres” among the components to be mentioned; it would be interesting to learn why this idea was dropped.101
In any case, the identification of iron spheres by both the EPA and the RJ Lee Group was another miraculous discovery, for the reason given above: The melting point of iron is 2,800°F, whereas the WTC fires could not possibly have gotten above 1,800°F.102
Melted Molybdenum: Scientists at the US Geological Survey, in a study intended to aid the “identification of WTC dust components,” discovered an even more miraculous effect of the fires. Besides finding the spherical iron-rich particles, these scientists found that molybdenum, the melting point of which is 4,753°F (2,623°C), had also melted. Although these USGS scientists failed to mention this discovery in their published report,103 another group of scientists, having obtained the USGS team’s data through a FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request, reported evidence showing that the USGS scientists had devoted serious study to “a molybdenum-rich spherule.”103
8. Inextinguishable Fires
Besides having the power to produce the miraculous effects already reported, the World Trade Center fires were also miraculously inextinguishable. The fact that fires continued burning in the Ground Zero rubble for many months, in spite of every attempt to put them out, was widely reported. The title of a New York Times story in the middle of November, two months after the attacks, referred to the “Most Stubborn Fire.” A New Scientist article in December was entitled “Ground Zero’s Fires Still Burning.” Very hot fires continued to burn in the Ground Zero debris piles, these stories reported, even though heavy rains came down, millions of additional gallons of water were sprayed onto the piles, and a chemical suppressant was pumped into them.105
According to Greg Fuchek, vice president of a company that supplied computer equipment to identify human remains at the site, the working conditions at Ground Zero remained "hellish" for six months, because the ground temperature ranged from 600 to 1,500 degrees Fahrenheit.106
These inextinguishable fires were a mystery. Assuming the truth of the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center, there would have been nothing in the debris pile other than ordinary building materials, and these can burn only in the presence of oxygen. There would have been little oxygen available in the densely packed debris piles, and wherever it was available, the fires should have been easily suppressed by the enormous amounts of water and chemical suppressants pumped into the piles. The fires’ seemingly miraculous power to keep burning could not be explained by the airplanes’ jet fuel (which some people seem to think of as having miraculous powers, even though it is essentially kerosene), because it would have all burned out, as mentioned above, within a few minutes.
A non-miraculous explanation is suggested by the discovery of a large amount of nanothermite residue in the WTC dust, which was reported in a peer-reviewed scientific journal in 2009.107 Being both an incendiary and a high explosive, nanothermite is one among several types of “energetic nanocomposites” – described by an article in The Environmentalist as “chemical energetic materials, which provide their own fuel and oxidant and are not deterred by water, dust or chemical suppressants.”108 The discovery of nanothermite residue in the dust provided, therefore, an empirical basis for a non-miraculous explanation of the long-lasting fires at Ground Zero.
According to the official account, however, the buildings were all brought down without the aid of any incendiaries or explosives. WTC 7 was said by NIST, as we saw above, to have been brought down by fire alone, and this fire, NIST added, was “an ordinary building contents fire.”109 As for the Twin Towers, they were brought down through the combined effects of the airplane impacts and the ensuing fires: NIST explicitly rejected “alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives.”110
For anyone who accepts the official account, therefore, the inextinguishable underground fires at Ground Zero provide still another demonstration of miraculous powers that must have been possessed by the World Trade Center fires.
9. Supernatural Sulfur
In the seventh section, I discussed the two Swiss-cheese-appearing pieces of steel that had been recovered from the World Trade Center rubble – one from WTC 7, the other from one of the Twin Towers. In that discussion, however, I ignored one of the central features of these pieces of steel, which was central to the reason they were said by the New York Times to constitute “the deepest mystery.”
This was the fact that the thinning of the steel had resulted, according to the three WPI professors’ report, from sulfidation, but there was no explanation for the source of the sulfur or the mechanism through which it entered into the steel. According to a preliminary analysis reported by the professors, said the NYT article, “sulfur released during the fires – no one knows from where – may have combined with atoms in the steel to form compounds that melt at lower temperatures.”111
This phenomenon was discussed more fully in the article, “The ‘Deep Mystery’ of Melted Steel,” in WPI’s magazine, which attributed the holes and the thinning to “a eutectic reaction” that “occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.”112
In summarizing their findings in the paper included in the FEMA report, the three professors wrote:
“1. The thinning of the steel occurred by a high-temperature corrosion due to a combination of oxidation and sulfidation.
“2. Heating of the steel into a hot corrosive environment approaching 1,000°C (1,832°F) results in the formation of a eutectic mixture of iron, oxygen, and sulfur that liquefied the steel.
“3. The sulfidation attack of steel grain boundaries accelerated the corrosion and erosion of the steel.”113
Then, having mentioned sulfidation in each of these three points, the professors added: “The severe corrosion and subsequent erosion of Samples 1 and 2 are a very unusual event. No clear explanation for the source of the sulfur has been identified. . . . A detailed study into the mechanisms of this phenomenon is needed.”114
However, although Arden Bement, who was the director of NIST when it took over the WTC project from FEMA, said that NIST’s report would address “all major recommendations contained in the [FEMA] report,”115 NIST ignored this recommendation. Indeed, as we saw earlier, it did not even mention these Swiss-cheese pieces of steel.
Also, when NIST was later asked about the sulfidation, it tried to maintain that the source of the sulfur was not actually a mystery, saying that “sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.”116
But there are three problems with this explanation. First, gypsum is calcium sulfate, so if all the sulfur discovered had been from gypsum wallboard, it would have been matched by about the same percentage of calcium. That, however, was not the case.117
Second, the WPI professors reported not merely that there was sulfur in the debris, but that the steel had been sulfidized. This means that sulfur had entered into the intergranular structure of the steel (which the New York Times article had indicated by saying that sulfur had “combined with atoms in the steel”). As chemist Kevin Ryan has said, the question NIST would need to answer is: “[H]ow did sulfates, from wallboard, tunnel into the intergranular microstructure of the steel and then form sulfides within?”118 Physicist Steven Jones added:
“[I]f NIST claims that sulfur is present in the steel from gypsum, they should do an (easy) experiment to heat steel to about 1000°C in the presence of gypsum and then test whether sulfur has entered the steel. . . . [T]hey will find that sulfur does not enter steel under such circumstances.”119
Chemistry professor Niels Harrit has explained why it would not: Although gypsum contains sulfur, this is not elemental sulfur, which can react with iron, but sulfur in the form of calcium sulfate, which cannot.120
The official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center, therefore, implies that the sulfidized steel had been produced by a twofold miracle: Besides the fact that the fires, as we saw earlier, could have melted steel only if they had possessed miraculous powers, the sulfur in the wallboard could have entered into this melted steel only by virtue of supernatural powers.
Once again, a non-miraculous explanation is available: We need only suppose that thermate, a well-known incendiary, had been employed. As Steven Jones has written:
“The thermate reaction proceeds rapidly and is in general faster than basic thermite in cutting through steel due to the presence of sulfur. (Elemental sulfur forms a low-melting-temperature eutectic with iron.)”121
Besides providing an explanation for the eutectic reaction, thermate could also, Jones pointed out, explain the melting, oxidation, and sulfidation of the steel:
“When you put sulfur into thermite it makes the steel melt at a much lower temperature, so instead of melting at about 1,538°C [2,800°F] it melts at approximately 988°C [1,820°F], and you get sulfidation and oxidation in the attacked steel.”122
NIST, however, insists that no incendiaries were employed: WTC 7 was brought down by fire alone; the Twin Towers by the fires combined with damage from the airplane impacts. Those who endorse the official account, therefore, are stuck with yet another miracle.
III Which 9/11 Conspiracy Theory Is Truly Discrediting and Distracting?
In light of the above facts, I ask Terry Allen, David Corn, Noam Chomsky, Alexander Cockburn, Chris Hayes, George Monbiot, Matthew Rothschild, and Matt Taibbi: Are you still comfortable with endorsing the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center?
A symposium on “State Crimes Against Democracy” in one of our major social science journals, American Behavioral Scientist,123 has recently addressed this issue. Likening Orwell’s “secret doctrine” that 2 + 2 = 4, which intellectuals must safeguard in dark times, to unquestioned laws of physics, one of the symposium’s authors criticized “the awesome intellectual silence making permissible the blithe dismissal of more than one law of thermodynamics in the World Trade Center Towers’ collapse.”124 Part of this silence has involved the failure of the academy to protest when “Professor Steven Jones found himself forced out of [a] tenured position for merely reminding the world that physical laws, about which there is no dissent whatsoever, contradict the official theory of the World Trade Center Towers’ collapse.”125
I wonder if you are still comfortable with giving your own consent to NIST’s “blithe dismissal” of otherwise unquestioned physical principles – as did Cockburn, when he ridiculed the 9/11 Truth Movement for its “delirious litanies about . . . the collapse of the WTC buildings,” and Taibbi, when he wrote contemptuously of people who have tried to educate him “on the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.”126 I would think that, if there are good reasons to suspect that these physical principles have been dismissed in the interests of covering up a major state crime against democracy, you would be especially uncomfortable with giving your consent to it.
Some of you have expressed fear, to be sure, that the left will be discredited insofar as it is seen as endorsing a 9/11 conspiracy theory. Having asked in 2007, “Why do I bother with these morons?” George Monbiot replied: “Because they are destroying the movements some of us have spent a long time trying to build.”127 In 2009, David Corn wrote: “[W]hen the 9/11 conspiracy theories were first emerging on the left, I wrote several pieces decrying them [for] fear . . . that this unsound idea would infect the left and other quarters – discrediting anyone who got close to it.”128
Some of you, moreover, have objected to the 9/11 Truth Movement on the grounds that it has served as a distraction from truly important issues. The 9/11 conspiracy theories, Corn wrote in 2002, serve to “distract people from the real wrongdoing.”129 Cockburn, writing in 2006, agreed, saying: “The Conspiracy Nuts have combined to produce a huge distraction.”130 That same year, Chomsky said: “One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state.”131 And Monbiot, naming in 2007 some truly important issues from which, in his view, the 9/11 conspiracy theory has distracted us, mentioned “climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality, . . . [the fact] that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy, [and] that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account.”132
I will address these two fears – of being discredited and of being distracted – in order.
1. The Fear of Being Discredited
You are certainly right to fear that the left would be discredited by being aligned with a conspiracy theory that is scientifically unsupportable and even absurd. It is hard to imagine, however, what could discredit the left more than having many of its recognized leaders endorsing the Bush-Cheney administration’s 9/11 conspiracy theory, especially at a time when more and more scientists and people in relevant professions are pointing out its absurdities.
Conspiracy Theories and the Official Account of 9/11: I realize, of course, that most of you do not like to acknowledge that the official account of 9/11 is itself a conspiracy theory, given the one-sided, propagandistic meaning with which this term is now commonly employed. As New Zealand philosopher Charles Pigden has pointed out in a superb essay entitled “Conspiracy Theories and the Conventional Wisdom”:
“[T]o call someone ‘a conspiracy theorist’ is to suggest that he is irrational, paranoid or perverse. Often the suggestion seems to be that conspiracy theories are not just suspect, but utterly unbelievable, too silly to deserve the effort of a serious refutation.”133
However, Pigden continues, using the term in this way is intellectually dishonest, because “a conspiracy theory is simply a theory that posits a conspiracy - a secret plan on the part of some group to influence events by partly secret means.”134 And, given this neutral, dictionary meaning of the term:
“[E]very politically and historically literate person is a big-time conspiracy theorist, since every such person subscribes to a vast range of conspiracy theories. . . . [T]here are many facts that admit of no non-conspiratorial explanation and many conspiracy theories that are sufficiently well-established to qualify as knowledge. It is difficult . . . to mount a coup [or an assassination] without conspiring. . . . Thus anyone who knows anything about the Ides of March or the assassinations of Archduke Franz Ferdinand or the Tsar Alexander II is bound to subscribe to a conspiracy theory, and hence to be a conspiracy theorist.”135
In light of the neutral meaning of the term provided by Pigden, everyone is a conspiracy theorist about 9/11, not only people who believe that the US government was complicit. According to the government’s theory, the 9/11 attacks resulted from a conspiracy between Osama bin Laden, other al-Qaeda leaders (such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed), and 19 young members of al-Qaeda who agreed to hijack airliners.136
Failure to recognize this point can lead to absurd consequences. For example, after an article about 9/11 by former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura, which had been posted at the Huffington Post, was quickly taken down, the HP editor gave this explanation: “The Huffington Post’s editorial policy . . . prohibits the promotion and promulgation of conspiracy theories — including those about 9/11. As such, we have removed this post.”137 In response, I pointed out that this policy entails that the HP “cannot accept any posts that state, or imply, that al-Qaeda was responsible for the 9/11 attacks, for that is a conspiracy theory.” This fact has been acknowledged, I added, by former Harvard law professor and current Obama administration member Cass Sunstein – who referred to the above-quoted article by Charles Pigden. One implication of this fact combined with HP’s policy, I concluded, is that HP “cannot allow President Obama to say that we are in Afghanistan to ‘get the people who attacked us on 9/11,’ because he’s thereby endorsing the Bush-Cheney conspiracy theory about 9/11.”138 But HP, evidently not bothered by logical inconsistency, has not changed its policy.
In any case, once it is acknowledged that both of the major theories about 9/11 are conspiracy theories, the 9/11 Truth’s Movement’s theory cannot rationally be rejected on the grounds that it is a conspiracy theory. Making a rational judgment requires comparing the two conspiracy theories to see which one is more plausible. And when the issue is posed in this way, the official theory does not fare well, whether viewed from a scientific or a merely prima facie perspective.
The Prima Facie Absurdity of the Official Conspiracy Theory: Even when viewed only superficially (prima facie), the central elements in the official story, if evaluated in abstraction from the fact that it is the official story, is certainly implausible – it probably would have been even too implausible to pass muster as the plot for a bad Hollywood movie. Matt Taibbi has made such a statement about the story implicit in the various claims made by the 9/11 Truth Movement, saying that if you combine those claims into a coherent script, “you get the dumbest story since Roman Polanski's Pirates.”139 However, aside from the fact that Taibbi failed to support this claim, he simply ignored the absurdity of the official story, which, boiled down to a one-sentence summary, says:
Inexperienced Muslim hijackers, armed only with knives and box-cutters, took control of four airliners, then outfoxed the world’s most sophisticated air defense system, then used two of these airliners to bring three skyscrapers down (indeed, straight down, in virtual free fall),140 and then, almost an hour later - when the US air defense system would have been on highest alert - flew a third one, undetected, from the mid-west back to Washington DC, where – thanks to heroic piloting by a man who had never before flown an airliner and who was, according to the New York Times, known as a “terrible pilot,” incapable of safely flying even a tiny plane – this third airliner went through an extremely difficult trajectory (even too difficult for them, said some experienced airline pilots) in order to strike the first floor of the Pentagon – surely the most well-protected building on the planet – without scraping the Pentagon lawn.
What could discredit “the left” more than the fact that you, some of its leading spokespersons, have endorsed such nonsense?
The Scientific Status of the Two Conspiracy Theories. Actually, there is one thing that would be even more discrediting: If, after having it pointed out to you that at least nine miracles are implied by this story, you fail to renounce your former acceptance of it.
Also, it is not only the miracles implicit in the official account that undermine your apparent assumption that good science supports the official account rather than that of the 9/11 Truth Movement. Although that assumption was less obviously unreasonable a few years ago, at least by people who either could not or would not look at the evidence for themselves, that assumption is now completely and obviously unreasonable, due to developments that have occurred in the past few years.
In 2006, as we saw above, Chomsky suggested that there would be two decisive tests for the physical evidence touted by the 9/11 Truth Movement: (i) “submit it to specialists [with] the requisite background in civil-mechanical engineering, materials science, [and] building construction.” (ii) “submit it to a serious journal for peer review and publication.”
To begin with the second test: A few months before December 2006, when Chomsky made this suggestion, physicist Steven Jones, at that time a professor at Brigham Young University, and some other scientists started a new online outlet, the Journal of 9/11 Studies. By now, it has published dozens of peer-reviewed papers, five of which were cited earlier: “Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Completely Collapse?” (by Jones himself); “9/11: Acceleration Study Proves Explosive Demolition” (by Frank Legge); “Revisiting 9/11/2001: Applying the Scientific Method” (by Jones); “Momentum Transfer Analysis of the Collapse of the Upper Storeys of WTC 1” (by Gordon Ross); and "Extremely High Temperatures during the World Trade Center Destruction" (by Jones and seven other scientists).
Of course, people who are skeptical of the 9/11 Truth Movement’s claims may assume – albeit wrongly, from what I have learned - that this journal, being favorable to such claims, may have a less than rigorous peer-review process. And what Chomsky had suggested, in any case, was that 9/11 Truth Movement scientists should submit articles to mainstream science journals, to see if they could pass their peer-review processes.
Jones and other scientists, deciding to take up Chomsky’s challenge, started working on papers to submit, and since 2008, at least six papers disputing the official account of the WTC have been published in mainstream journals:
· “Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction,” by Steven E. Jones, Frank M. Legge, Kevin R. Ryan, Anthony F. Szamboti, and James R. Gourley, published in 2008 in the Open Civil Engineering Journal.141
· “Environmental Anomalies at the World Trade Center: Evidence for Energetic Materials,” by Kevin R. Ryan, James R. Gourley, and Steven E. Jones, published in 2009 in The Environmentalist.142
· “Active Thermitic Material Observed in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe,” by University of Copenhagen chemistry professor Niels Harrit and eight colleagues (including Jones, Ryan, Legge, and Gourley), published in 2009 in The Open Chemical Physics Journal.143
· “Discussion of ‘Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Center: A Simple Analysis’ by K.A. Seffen,” by physicist Crockett Grabbe, published in 2010 in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics, which is published by the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE).144
· “Discussion of ’Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions’ by Zdenek P. Bazant and Mathieu Verdure,” by chemical engineer James R. Gourley, published in 2010 in the ASCE’s Journal of Engineering Mechanics.145
· "Discussion of ‘What Did and Did Not Cause Collapse of World Trade Center Twin Towers in New York?’ by Zdenek P. Bazant, Jia-Liang Le, Frank R. Greening, and David B. Benson," by Anders Björkman, published in 2010 in the ASCE’s Journal of Engineering Mechanics.146
Given the time it takes to write scientific papers and get them through the peer-review process, combined with the relatively small number of scientists writing about these issues, this is an impressive achievement. It would seem that this part of Chomsky’s test has been met.
These publications demonstrate, moreover, that many of the same scientists who had been publishing in the Journal of 9/11 Studies have now written papers that have gotten through the peer-review process of mainstream science journals. There is no empirical basis, accordingly, for the assumption that the Journal of 9/11 Studies’ peer-review process is any less critical. We can, therefore, add the 25 scientific papers about the WTC collapses in the Journal of 9/11 Studies to the six recent papers in mainstream journals, giving us a total of over 30 peer-reviewed scientific articles challenging the official theory about the destruction of the WTC that have appeared since 2006.
I turn now to Chomsky’s other suggested way for members of the Truth Movement to test physical evidence that they see as disproving the official story: “submit it to specialists [with] the requisite background in civil-mechanical engineering, materials science, [and] building construction.” This has now been done and, as a result, the movement has large and continually growing numbers of physical scientists, engineers, and architects.
The physical scientists (beyond those already mentioned) include:
· Dr. A. K. Dewdney, professor emeritus of mathematics and physics, University of Western Ontario.
· Dr. Timothy E. Eastman, Consultant, Plasmas International, Silver Spring, Maryland.
· Dr. Mark F. Fitzsimmons, senior lecturer in organic chemistry, University of Plymouth.
· Dr. David L. Griscom, former research physicist at the Naval Research Laboratory; principal author of 100 papers in scientific journals; fellow of the American Physical Society and of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
· Dr. Jan Kjellman, research scientist in nuclear physics and nanotechnology, École Polytechnique Federale, Lausanne.
· Dr. Herbert G. Lebherz, professor emeritus, Department of Chemistry, San Diego State University.
· Dr. Eric Leichtnam, professor of mathematics and physics, University of Paris.
· Dr. Terry Morrone, professor emeritus, Department of Physics, Adelphi University.
· Dr. John D. Wyndham, former research fellow, California Institute of Technology.147
With regard to architects and engineers: In December 2006, when Chomsky issued his suggestion, there were few if any architects and engineers who had publicly questioned the official account of the destruction of the World Trade Center. But in January, 2007, architect Richard Gage, a member of the American Institute of Architects (AIA), began Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, and by now its membership includes over 1,200 professional architects and engineers.
Here are a few of the architects:
· Daniel B. Barnum, AIA fellow; founder of the Houston AIA Residential Architecture Committee.
· Bertie McKinney Bonner, M. Arch; AIA member; licensed architect in Pennsylvania.
· David Paul Helpern, AIA fellow; founder of Helpern Architects.
· Cynthia Howard, M. Arch; licensed architect in Maine and Massachusetts; past president, AIA’s New England Chapter.
· David A. Johnson, PhD, internationally known architect and city planner; chaired the planning departments at Syracuse and Ball State universities; former president of the Fulbright Association of the United States.
· Kevin A. Kelly, AIA fellow; author of Problem Seeking: An Architectural Programming Primer, which has become a standard textbook.
· Anne Lee, M. Arch, AIA member; licensed architect in Massachusetts.
· Dr. David Leifer, coordinator of the Graduate Program in Facilities Management, University of Sydney; former professor at Mackintosh School of Architecture.
· Paul Stevenson Oles, fellow of the AIA, which in 1989 called him “the dean of architectural illustrators in America”; co-founder of the American Society of Architectural Perspectivists.
· David A. Techau, B. Arch., MS; AIA member; licensed architect in Hawaii.148
Here are a few of the engineers:
· John Edward Anderson, PhD; professor emeritus, Mechanical Engineering, University of Minnesota; licensed Professional Engineer (PE).
· Robert Bowman, PhD; former head, Department of Aeronautical Engineering, US Air Force Institute of Technology; director of Advanced Space Programs Development (“Star Wars”) under Presidents Ford and Carter.
· Ronald H. Brookman, MS Eng; licensed Professional Civil and Structural Engineer in California
· Dwain Deets, former Director for Research Engineering and Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, which awarded him the NASA Exceptional Service Award.
· Joel Hirschhorn, PhD; former professor, Metallurgical Engineering, University of Wisconsin, Madison; former staff member, Congressional Office of Technology Assessment.
· Richard F. Humenn, licensed PE (retired); senior Project Design Engineer, World Trade Center electrical systems.
· Fadhil Al-Kazily, PhD; licensed Professional Civil Engineer.
· Jack Keller, PhD; professor emeritus, Civil Engineering, Utah State University; member, National Academy of Engineering; named one of the world’s 50 leading contributors to science and technology benefiting society by Scientific American.
· Heikki Kurttila, PhD; Safety Engineer and Accident Analyst for Finland’s National Safety Technology Authority.
· Ali Mojahid, PhD, Civil and Architectural Engineering; licensed PE.
· Edward Munyak, Mechanical and Fire Protection Engineer; former Fire Protection Engineer for California and the US Departments of Energy and Defense.
· Kamal S. Obeid, MS, licensed Professional Structural and Civil Engineer.149
In addition to Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, many other 9/11 organizations of professionals with relevant types of expertise have been formed, including Firefighters for 9/11 Truth,150 Intelligence Officers for 9/11 Truth,151 Medical Professionals for 9/11 Truth,152 Pilots for 9/11 Truth,153 S.P.I.N.E.: The Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven,154 and Veterans for 9/11 Truth.155
Less obviously relevant, but surely not entirely irrelevant, are some other professional organizations, including Journalists and Other Media Professionals for 9/11 Truth,156 Lawyers for 9/11 Truth,157 Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth,158 Religious Leaders for 9/11 Truth,159 and Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice.160 If we combine the membership of these organizations with those in the previous paragraph, we can see that several thousand professional people have publicly announced their alignment with the 9/11 Truth Movement.
In light of the above-mentioned developments, could any fair-minded person deny that the 9/11 Truth Movement’s evidence has passed Chomsky’s twofold test with flying colors?
Given the make-up of the 9/11 Truth Movement, could any such person agree with the claims about this movement quoted in Part I of this essay, according to which its members are “conspiracy nuts,” “idiots,” and “morons,” who, being devoid of “any conception of evidence,” are “willing to abandon science” in favor of “magic”? In one of his 2009 essays, David Corn expressed concern about “9/11 conspiracy silliness.”161 But it is hard to imagine anything sillier, and hence more self-discrediting, than making such claims about the scientists, architects, engineers, intelligence officers, lawyers, medical professionals, political leaders, and other professionals who have publicly aligned themselves with the 9/11 Truth Movement.
As I stated on a lecture tour in early 2009:
“Among scientists and professionals in the relevant fields who have studied the evidence, the weight of scientific and professional opinion is now overwhelmingly on the side of the 9/11 Truth Movement. Whereas well over 1,000 such people have publicly supported the stance of this movement, there are virtually no scientists or professionals in the relevant fields who have gone on record in defense of the official story---except for people whose livelihood would be threatened if they refused to support it. This caveat is important, because, as Upton Sinclair famously observed: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”162 Except for such people, virtually everyone who has expertise in a relevant field, and who has seriously studied the evidence, rejects the official conspiracy theory. It is time, therefore, for journalists and everyone else to take a second look.”163
A More General Problem with the Official Conspiracy Theory: In addition the twofold fact that the official conspiracy theory’s account of the WTC destruction implies miracles and has been increasingly rejected by informed and independent people in relevant professions, this theory is rendered unworthy of belief by a more general problem: when its various details are subjected to critical scrutiny, the entire story falls apart – as I showed in my 2008 book, The New Pearl Harbor Revisited164 (which, incidentally, was a Publishers Weekly “Pick of the Week” in November 2008,165 an honor not normally bestowed on books written by morons and idiots).
One of the things that falls apart is the idea that there were al-Qaeda hijackers on the airliners. Having in my book examined the various types of evidence for this idea, I will here focus on the type of evidence usually considered the strongest: the alleged phone calls from the planes, during which the presence of hijackers was reported. All of you have evidently accepted these calls as genuine.
For example, Matthew Rothschild, defending the government’s account of what happened on United Flight 93, wrote: “we know from cell phone conversations that passengers on board that plane planned on confronting the hijackers.”166 However, about ten of the reported calls from this flight were said to have been made on cell phones, most of them when the plane was at 35,000 feet or higher, and the technology at that time did not allow cell phone calls to be made from airliners at such altitudes, as pointed out by members of the 9/11 Truth Movement – most definitively by A. K. Dewdney and Michel Chossudovsky in 2003 and 2004.167
Chris Hayes faulted the Truth Movement for focusing on what he called “physical minutiae,” such as “the altitude in Pennsylvania at which cellphones on Flight 93 should have stopped working.”168 It would appear, however, that the FBI took such “minutiae” seriously: When it issued a report in 2006 on the (alleged) phone calls from the 9/11 airliners, the FBI designated only two of them as having been made on cell phones, and both of those, the FBI said, had been made from Flight 93 when it, about to crash, was at a low altitude. All the other reported calls from this flight (as well as all the reported calls from the other flights) were said to have been made from onboard phones, including three to five calls that Deena Burnett reported having received from her husband, Tom Burnett.169
This change of story got rid of the problem of technologically impossible (miraculous) phone calls, but it created another problem: How to explain the reports of approximately ten calls from this flight that, according to the recipients, had been made on cell phones? In some cases, we might assume, the recipients had misunderstood, or misremembered, what they had been told. But Deena Burnett said – and she reported this to the FBI on 9/11 itself – that she knew her husband had used his cell phone, because she recognized his cell phone number on her own phone’s Caller ID. If Tom Burnett had really called his wife using an onboard phone, as the FBI now claims, the fact that his cell phone number repeatedly showed up on her Caller ID would have to count as a miracle.
I would think people generally skeptical of the claims made by the government, especially claims from which the military-industrial complex is benefiting, would consider this problem – which is documented at length in The New Pearl Harbor Revisited170 - worthy of investigation.
I have also raised questions about the alleged phone calls from CNN correspondent Barbara Olson, which had been reported that day by her husband, US Solicitor General Ted Olson. She had phoned him twice, he claimed, from American Flight 77 (which allegedly crashed into the Pentagon shortly thereafter).
In a list of my views treated derisively by Rothschild, he said: “Griffin casts doubt on whether the phone calls actually happened.”171 Perhaps Rothschild will be more impressed by the fact that, in its 2006 report on phone calls from the 9/11 airliners, the FBI did not support the claim that the calls from Barbara Olson “actually happened.” Although Ted Olson said he had received two calls from his wife, with the first call lasting “about one (1) minute”172 and the second one lasting “two or three or four minutes,”173 the FBI report on calls from American Flight 77 says that Barbara Olson attempted one call, which was “unconnected,” so that it (of course) lasted “0 seconds.”174
The reported calls from Barbara Olson were very important: They provided the first evidence given to the public that the planes had been hijacked; they were instrumental in getting the American public ready to strike back at Muslims in a “war on terror”; and they were also the only source for a piece of information that everyone “knows” – that the hijackers had box-cutters. One would think, therefore, that it would be of more than passing interest to people concerned about the direction of US foreign policy since 9/11 that an FBI report in 2006 indicates that these calls never happened.
This is the same FBI that – in spite of Rothschild’s confident claim that there is no doubt of Osama bin Laden’s responsibility for the attacks, because he (allegedly) claimed responsibility for them in a video (allegedly) found in Afghanistan by the US military – does not list him as wanted for 9/11. Why? Because, an FBI spokesman explained, “the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”175 The FBI must be less certain than Rothschild about the evidentiary value of that so-called confessional video – and for good reason, as I have shown elsewhere.176
Accordingly, insofar as you left-leaning despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement have been concerned not to discredit yourselves by endorsing an unsupported, implausible, irrational, and even scientifically impossible conspiracy theory, that is precisely what you are doing so long as you stand by your endorsements of the Bush administration’s – and now the Obama administration’s – 9/11 conspiracy theory.
2. The Fear of Being Distracted
The second fear – that the focus on a false conspiracy theory has been distracting many people from more important matters – is equally valid. But this fear has been directed toward the wrong conspiracy theory. Nothing has distracted the United States and its allies from issues such as global apartheid, the ecological crisis, nuclear proliferation, and corporate power more than the “war on terror” - with its huge operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, its incessant terror alerts and stories of attacks prevented, and its depletion of our national treasuries. Lying at the root of this so-called war on terror, both historically and as present justification, is the official account of 9/11. So it is, as I wrote in response to Cockburn in Le Monde Diplomatique three years go, “The Truly Distracting 9/11 Conspiracy Theory.”177
Had the falsity of this account been exposed within weeks – as it certainly could and should have been – the war in Afghanistan, which has now been using up our time, talent, and treasury for almost a decade, could have been avoided altogether. If the falsity of the Bush-Cheney 9/11 conspiracy theory had at least been exposed within a year, the fiasco in Iraq could have been avoided. If the truth had been exposed within three years, those wars could have been closed down long ago and the Bush-Cheney administration dismissed before it had a second term. If so, the next administration, not distracted by two major wars and exaggerated fears about terrorist attacks on the “homeland,” might have focused on the fact that many environmental regulations needed to be tightened up. One consequence might have been that the Gulf oil blowout (not “spill”), which could turn out to be extremely destructive to our planet’s ecosystem, might never have occurred. The fact that the official conspiracy theory about 9/11 has distracted the United States and its allies from the ecological crisis is, therefore, no trivial matter – and this is merely one of many illustrations that could be given.
That the 9/11 Truth Movement, by contrast, cannot be rationally considered a distraction from more important matters was persuasively expressed in August 2006 by former CIA official Bill Christison, who by the end of his 28-year career had risen to the position of Director of the CIA’s Office of Regional and Political Analysis (and who, sadly, died while this essay was being written178). In an article entitled “Stop Belittling the Theories About September 11,” Christison wrote:
“After spending the better part of the last five years treating these theories with utmost skepticism, I have devoted serious time to actually studying them [and] have come to believe that significant parts of the 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the ‘official story’ put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false.”179
Then, after listing nine judgments that had led him to this conclusion – one of which was that the “North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them” - he added:
“If [these] judgments . . . are correct, they . . . strongly suggest that some unnamed persons or groups either inside or with ties to the government were actively creating a ‘Pearl Harbor’ event, most likely to gain public support for the aggressive foreign policies that followed – policies that would, first, ‘transform’ the entire Middle East, and second, expand U.S. global domination.”
Then, explaining why the evidence for this conclusion cannot reasonably be dismissed as a distraction from more important matters, he wrote:
“A manageable volume of carefully collected and analyzed evidence is already at hand . . . that elements within the Bush administration, as well as possibly other groups foreign or domestic, were involved in a massive fraud against the American people, a fraud that has led to many thousands of deaths. This charge of fraud, if proven, involves a much greater crime against the American people and people of the world than any other charges of fraud connected to the run-up to the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. It is a charge that we should not sweep under the rug because what is happening in Lebanon, Gaza, Iraq, Syria, and Iran seems more pressing and overwhelming. It is a charge that is more important because it is related to all of the areas just mentioned – after all, the events of 9/11 have been used by the administration to justify every single aspect of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East since September 11. It is a charge that is more important also because it affects the very core of our entire political system. If proven, it is a conspiracy, so far successful, not only against the people of the United States, but against the entire world.”
In this passage, Christison expressed this charge of fraud conditionally, saying “if proven.” He later made clear, however, that he had personally found the evidence convincing, referring to the 9/11 attacks as “an inside job.”180
In any case, besides saying that 9/11 is more important than America’s crimes in the Middle East because “the events of 9/11 have been used by the administration to justify every single aspect of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East since September 11,” he also, in saying that the 9/11 fraud “affects the very core of our entire political system,” anticipated the above-cited symposium in the American Behavioral Scientist, which treated 9/11 as a probable instance of its topic: State Crimes against Democracy. Christison’s implicit message to Chomsky, therefore, was: Given your concern with “real and ongoing crimes of state,” I would respectfully suggest that you do what I finally did: Actually examine the evidence that 9/11 was one of these crimes.
As for the concern to prosecute war criminals, what bigger war criminals could there be than people within our own government who engineered these attacks, then used them as a pretext for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which have killed millions?181
As for the hope of stopping these horribly deadly and terribly expensive wars, what better means could be had than proof – which scientists, architects, engineers, firefighters, and pilots in the 9/11 Truth Movement have provided – that the official account of 9/11 is a lie and that the attacks had to be, at least in part, an inside job?
Concluding Statement
I recently completed a 15-city tour, presenting a lecture entitled “Is the War in Afghanistan Justified by 9/11?” My hope was that, by providing clear evidence that it is not – because the official account of 9/11 is false from beginning to end – “the 9/11 Truth Movement and more traditional Peace and Anti-War groups [would] be able to combine forces to oppose this illegal and immoral war.”182 I have written the present essay with the same hope. But if this hope is to be fulfilled, erstwhile left-leaning despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement will need to prove that Cockburn’s charge about this movement’s members – “They’re immune to any reality check” – and Corn’s charge – they “are not open to persuasion”183 – are not instead true of themselves.
David Ray Griffin is the author of 36 books dealing with various subjects: philosophy, theology, philosophy of religion, philosophy of science, and 9/11 and US imperialism. In September 2009, The New Statesman ranked him #41 among “The 50 People Who Matter Today.” His most recent book is The Mysterious Collapse of World Trade Center 7: Why the Final Official Report about 9/11 is Unscientific and False (2009). His next book will be Cognitive Infiltration: An Obama Appointee’s Plan to Undermine the 9/11 Conspiracy Theory (September 2010). He wishes to thank four scientists – Jim Hoffman, Frank Legge, Kevin Ryan, and John Wyndham – and three other superb critics - Matthew Everett, Tod Fletcher, and Elizabeth Woodworth – for help with this essay.
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I give Chomsky some credit
I give Chomsky some credit for at least answering his emails but he basically refuses to answer the question-do you still endorse the official 9/11 story? I asked him this directly and he proceeded to talk in circles as he always does and ignored the question.
About the above article he said- "I don't have time or interest, or responsibility, to look at the
mass of material that circulates on the internet". I called him out on some of his inconsistencies on Israel/Palestine a few weeks back so he already doesn't like me. Maybe somebody else will have better luck? Email him if you all get the chance. Chomsky is a fucking fraud and he needs to know that more and more people are on to his bullshit. After trying to pull answers out of him I find him more annoying than ever.
Look how David Ray Griffin is approaching those dispisers!
@casseia
Thanks Casseia for posting!
Yesterday I posted some tweets on Chomsky and 9/11. Perhaps interesting for visitors on this forum. The way David Ray Griffin is handling the cowardly attitude from intellectual icons like Noam Chomsky is just great. He's killing their arguments with respectful treatment based on knowledge and far better arguments.
Ray Griffin's reply on Chomsky. The excellent YouTube w/ Griffin's comments http://youtu.be/FQPG3QxXy98 [this Youtube has some difficulties with playing. On my iPhone it works, on my pc it won't.
TheSwillBucket.com: David Ray Griffin on Media Resistance to #9/11 issues http://bit.ly/cC05dn #chomsky
MindBodyPolitics.com: Barry Zwicker: Noam Chomsky And The Left Gatekeepers http://bit.ly/c6zl25
Telegraph.co.uk: Noam Chomsky interview - "His pamphlet on the meaning of #9/11 sold upwards of half a million copies." http://bit.ly/9fQdOc
W911
http://waarheid911.com [Dutch]
http://twitter.com/W911 [English]
DRG is doing a great job but
DRG is doing a great job but what disturbs me is that he ignores the Israeli involvement in 9/11 in pretty much the same way that all these Zionist gate-keepers ignore or deny 9/11 truth altogether.
I couldn't agree more. DRG
I couldn't agree more. DRG seems to get a pass because the bulk of his work is so good. And it is. I don't think he should get a pass though. What disturbs me more than his silence on all things pointing at Israel was his reaction when he was asked why he is so silent on that aspect. Honestly, I would have felt better about his response if he just said something like-"I don't want to be called an anti-semite for pursuing that angle" or something. Instead he acted all offended that I would even ask him that and stopped communication at that point. Shady.
"plenty of entities"
If I recall, DRG, in an early interview with KB on one of his noliesradio shows, when asked about possible Israeli or Mossad involvement dismissed this and alluded to there being "plenty of covert entities" right within our own government...blah blah.
He's still good for intelligent, sciecne-and-logic-minded newbies.
Thanks for posting, C
Yep, Ive heard him take this
Yep, Ive heard him take this line before. I would like to think it is simply ignorance that causes him to dismiss Israeli involvement out of hand but he admitted to me that the Dov Zakheim circumstantial evidence was "strong" yet Zakheim does not appear in any of his books as far as I know. DRG connects many dots, so the old "I don't want to theorize" excuse doesn't work. He theorizes about Rumsfeld and Cheney all the time. I was told by Griffin that I had "crossed a line" when I asked him-"doesn't Zakheim(and UBS/Suter) at least warrant a mention, especially considering you wrote about remote flight techonology?". It was a pretty dissappointing exchange and I have been wary ever since then.
from the horses mouth....
Chris,
Yes, that is
what I suspect(he was referring to remote flight being used on 9/11) and that Zakheim was a major player. But I don't talk
about it because we have no direct evidence---whereas we do for Cheney,
Rummy, and Myers, given the lies they told which were supported by the
9/11 Commission.
Best wishes,
DG
Make of that what you will. I personally don't buy it. That was before he told me I had "crossed a line". I admit I did press him a bit but I was completely respectful.
DRG is soooooo willing to
DRG is soooooo willing to finger Cheney,Bush,Rumsfeld and other Americans but how often has he mentioned Dominic Suter and Dov Zakheim? Has he connected the Silverstein dots that lead right back to Israel? As far as I know, Silverstein is not connected to American political elites, he is connected to Israeli political elites including current PM Netanyahu. DRG needs to be asked why he protects Israel.
Well, I guess DRG is not
Well, I guess DRG is not protecting Israel, but protecting the movement and himself. It's very hard for him to explain this without suggesting something that will harm his position as an advocate for 9/11.
BTW, I hope somebody can help me with this. I don't succeed in opening the website from "architects and engineers for 9/11 truth" for days now. http://www.ae911truth.org/
Did I miss something?
I don't need DRG to
I don't need DRG to say-"Israel did 9/11!" or even suggest Israel was involved in any way. Though he reaches conclusions concerning Bush,Cheney and other Americans I don't need him to in the cases of Suter,Zakheim etc. but mentioning they exist would be a start for Griffin. If Israel or Israelis were involved in 9/11 it is not the 9/11 truth movement he is protecting with his silence.
I replied to the 'protecting Israel' thing
I replied to the 'protecting Israel' thing, as mentioned in the thread. If Suter or Zakheim has nothing to do with Israeli involvement, than what should be the point here?
I'm quite certain that the 'blaming Israel taboo' is a tool that [effectively used by the U.S. AND Israel!] is able to keep the mainstream media of the hook. War on information is not a one dimensional play about the good and the bad. It's about peoples images, profits, connections and influences. A poisonous combination that is cankered into society. Blaming some party will dis-guide the real complexity behind 9/11. As long as 9/11 is not reconsidered by the mainstream press by using physical evidence and common logic, Israel will be a welcome subject for distraction. Hysterical reactions always guaranteed. That's exactly how it is meant to be.
The point is that we are talking in a close circle and that our common knowledge is basically different compared with mainstream leveled news and news-consumers. What we are talking about is far beyond the perception of those who consider 9/11 as a result of Ali Baba and his 19 bandits.
Accumulate this crazy conspiracy theory with Israel and we lose all momentum for the upcoming decade, until 9/11 will be far history. And we don't need to. Complicity (in any degree) from Israel in 9/11 will float to the surface if other facts can't be ignored, even by the mainstream press.
I think the point is they
I think the point is they do "have something to do with Israeli involvement", as does Silverstein. Yet these dots are never connected and the 9/11 picture is always left incomplete. I guess we disagree on the viability of depending on positive coverage from our media. I feel it is a fools game to try and shape ones message to please the media, a media that always has and will continue to attack anyone who seriously questions 9/11 regardless of whether they bring up evidence implicating Israel or not.
You talk about the upcoming decade. What about the previous decade(almost) in which people like DRG did a lot of good work, but also a lot of finger pointing at Cheney/Rummy/Bush with precious little progress to show for it? Are we any closer to getting those guys in chains(who no doubt were involved on some level),let alone getting after the actual architects of 9/11? Israel is no distraction, in fact many of the "distractions" seem to be meant to protect Israel.
DRG and Israel
I guess DRG is just sensing what he can do or what will work against him. In the beginning they ridiculed people who asked questions about 9/11 as being dreamers and believers. Now their suggesting and some openly saying that they are dangerous, terrorists or antisemitics.
9/11 is not about being right, but about getting those facts acknowledged. DRG knows very well how to play just on the edge. It's much better to first get acknowledged what can be proven by scientific investigation. Don't need to explain how tough even this is, as long as people just can't believe what their own eyes can see!
When DRG starts pointing his attention on Israel on this momentum, they (newsmedia, agents, public opinion) will crucify him. They'll crucify the whole movement as being verifiable antisemitic. Then we have our martyr (DRG) and they can keep their lies.
I don't like fighting like a bunch of idealistic soldiers who are only driven by the force of high morality. That's not my definition of a warrior. I just want the truth being acknowledged. Using honesty, but also an effective strategy to win at the end. I think DRG is very cautious and fighting a mature and wise struggle. We should have more patience on Israel and the truth about them being complicit in, or involved with 9/11.
W911
http://twitter.com/W911
When he is mentioned by the
When he is mentioned by the media(a few times at best) he is ridiculed already. I agree its about acknowledging facts, but its about following them wherever they lead to me. Again, DRG does not need to reach conclusions(like he does about Cheney), just acknowledging certain people and facts would go a long way.
DRG is being ridiculed, but also a real pain in the ass
I agree DRG is being ridiculed already, but his strength till so far is that they [journalists] still can't beat his arguments. The media is just waiting for something to slam with. A highly moral issue that proves that people from the truthmovement are as dangerous as the White House want mainstream news-consumers to belief. Moral issues are far easier to convince people with, than plain facts.
Like I said, this is an information war. Just wait for the next attack on any Jewish target in the U.S. or else ware in the West, and some will try to blame 'truthers'.
Suppose Israel,or at least
Suppose Israel,or at least Israeli firsters within the US played a key role in 9/11. By your logic we should forever ignore this because of how a media will dishonestly frame the arguments of people who point this out. We cannot beat the media, we can only hope to wake enough people up to the facts so that the media is forced to move or become irrelevant. They will never be on our side and will always smear us.
And again-I'm not even asking DRG to say-"Israel did 9/11" or anything of the sort, just being fair would be enough. To me that would mean following the facts wherever they go, even if it is to Israel/Israelis, and not just following them to the Bush White House. As much as I couldn't stand that puppet Jon Gold can keep the heat on Bush without us.
the way I see it...
...is that there is a need for people like us, who are not like Chris Bollyn on friendly terms with David Duke, to maintain the visibility of the Zionist angle in 9/11, especially through Silverstein's connections. There is also a need for people like David Griffin who avoid "going there" directly but who insist on being clear about what is and is not proven--that the hijackings have never been proven, for example, and for that matter the deaths of many of the victims (the ones on the planes). Do I wish he would be more circumspect in his approach to naming the Bush admnistration as the prime suspects? Sure, but I can see his and others' point that someone on the inside had to be assisting the perps, that these same people should have been able to stop the attacks, and that identifying them is a logical first step in netting all the conspirators. I don't necessarily agree wholeheartedly with those views, but I can accept that they are sincerely held and don't merit particularly harsh condemnation. DRG continues to be an inspiration and beacon of credibility in an otherwise dark landscape.
We need the existing diversion, can't expect DRG to do it all.
@gretavo
Indeed there is a need for people like us on this forum (when committed wisely and consequently to some rules of truth finding). It's all about diversity. When acting on a 'higher' level in the streams of information, like DRG, you'll have a different view on the landscape in front of you.
When talking about how to handle the position of Israel according to 9/11, I was focused on the kind of position DRG has. I stepped into this discussion when dealing about DRG. This man is fighting a different fight from a different perspective. Much more complicated, but with the same goal. He and his position, important for the movement, is more vulnerable than ours. Many are weighing his words on a golden platter in order to smash him if they can. He needs to choose his moments carefully.
We are in fact fighting from a much more comfortable position. We can effort ourselves to speak out more distinctive on matters like Israel. That's important too. But even then the subject needs to be treated with caution. Just objective, factual and without hatred, etc. If so, we should say everything we want.
DRG will definitely make mistakes, but I don't consider his attitude towards Israel as a mistake. He just seems to dose his priorities the way he thinks they are most effective. He seems to work on the subject, because he came little closer already with one of his latest contributions about "Left-Leaning Despisers of the 9/11 Truth Movement".
The problem of concealing
The problem of concealing Israeli involvement now is that it makes the movement vulnerable to a limited investigation in the future which targets some of the guilty parties, but fails to go after the other important and seemingly well protected Zionist culprits.
A show trial can be staged, blaming Bush and Cheney then a fake closure is established. The truth movement must be willing to confront and suffer the consequences of telling the truth as it is. Backing down to establish traction with half truths is a double edged sword that can hurt the movement down the line as much or worse than the gains seemingly allowed now by this politicking.
If it weren't for this site I would not have been made aware of the Zionist angle, and if it weren't for that awareness I would not have understood why the media acts the way it does. You have to give the full story in order for the audience to make sense of what is happening and how truth is being manipulated. That awareness is how people can fight back, by recognizing news manipulation which they are exposed to everyday.
When Muslims in US are targeted by FBI anti-terror investigations and arrest, I always look for signs that it is yet another bogus affair. Now if I was not aware of Zionist angle and if I were American, I might instead be convinced by this charade that Muslim terrorists are indeed a threat within the US.
DRG and all truth sites should be honest of the facts. That is how to win against disinfo.
HUGE f'ing co-sign! I
HUGE f'ing co-sign! I seriously couldn't have said it better myself.
;-)
How can I trust you when you hide your face?
Screaming for truth & hoping for righteousness from heaven.
@juandelacruz
I see your point, but I don't share your fear and I don't think that it presents the way this discussion is evolving.
To begin with the starting point of 'concealing'. I'm not defending the idea of concealing involvement of Israel. I even literately said that if we use facts, logic, and common sense, INSTEAD of mixing facts with emotions and/or the use offensive or contemptible language, we can actually say what we want without harming the movement. But most of my response in this thread was dealing with David Ray Griffin. I tried to explain the complicated position he is in compared with us.
Another point is the actual prove that exists concerning involvement of Israel. Is it circumstantial evidence, hard evidence or are we talking about serious probabilities? What do we have? Very important to be conscious about that all the time!
Hard evidence is easy, for the other part it's just a question of being very, very humble when making such heavy accusations. Even if you're personal convinced because of all gathered information. It's not about us, it's about the transfer of information in an environment that is hostile [related to that information].
I repeat, this is not just a simple question of pushing enough truth into the worlds population. It ain't work like that. This is an information war. People even do not belief what their own eyes see. They belief what the moral buttons, these falls prophets, are dictating them. I mean the papers, television sets, etc. They all manipulate people with the use of guilt. "If you're not for the patriots, you choose for the enemy!" The art of tricking the sense of right and wrong. That's even stronger than what the eyes can see. Even reporters and journalists are not implicit, in most cases they're victims as well.
It's with truth the same as with love. Don't think that you can heal everything with all the love you have. Your counterpart should be willing to receive, otherwise you're losing lot's of energy ;-)
Please do not listen to my words in labels [agent, conservative, coward --- I just randomly say some words]. When I carefully criticize the way things are being handled, in a perspective of strategy, there should be no need for suspicion. To be critical is okay [please be], but listening in labels prevents listening to what I'm actually saying. In fact, I responded several times on replies that suggested things I've never said or meant. Let's just try not to meme each other.
Fearing a show trial (again) is something that, I guess, is realistic. With or without Israel. Again, I'm not saying that Israeli involvement should be concealed. Please read my words carefully, because I try to be nuanced. It's impossible to control all mechanisms around us. Getting truth acknowledged is more a question of dosing facts smartly, on the right time and place, than firing truth in all directions hoping for righteousness from heaven.
Why does he have to avoid
Why does he have to avoid "going there" though? Because the media will demonize him? I would argue that horse left the barn a long time ago. And being friends with David Duke is much different than mentioning, say, Urban Moving Systems, even in passing. Griffin states quite a lot that is not proven about certain Bush administration members so I guess It would make me feel better about his motives if he did the same with imo stronger evidence implicating certain zionists. A cross between Bollyn and Griffin would be the best. Bollyns fearlessness and Griffins tact. I think Griffin takes that tact way too far as is, to the point of possibly letting the perps off the hook. I would like to think this is not his purpose.
Also, I couldn't agree more that they needed inside help, Ive always maintaned that 9/11 was an inside/outside job, with the "outside" elements being the architects and "inside" elements-Cheney for starters, were more of the underlings. Exposure of the underlings is acceptable to the actual architects of 9/11 imo. And that is the danger of only focusing on the "inside" elements within the Bush administration like Griffin does.
Talking like an activist is one thing...
Talking like an activist is one thing. You can't expect others to use that same mindset on what they are trying to achieve. David Ray Griffin is a scientist who conditioned himself to use another kind of ethics and procedures. He took a lot of heat the way he is working, much more than all those activists that can permit themselves to say anything they want.
When you say "Why does he have to avoid "going there" though? Because the media will demonize him? I would argue that horse left the barn a long time ago," I presume that you are waiting for the revolution, because you seem to suggest that the lies about 9/11 will NEVER become mainstream.
In that case we do have an "agree to disagree", because without any pressure from the media, without getting 9/11 mainstream worthy, I do not believe that the question will ever be solved.
I belief in the contrary, that quite some journalists are in fact waiting for the momentum to jump in the wagon to 9/11 skepticism. The same for politicians and lots of other professionals.
Playing by the corporate
Playing by the corporate medias rules like you naively seem to want to will never lead to 9/11 going "mainstream". DRG is not getting airtime. Nobody is. If you think our media and the spineless empty suits that make it up are waiting to jump on 9/11 we REALLY have to agree to disagree. Same for our politicians.
@Chris "By your logic we
@Chris
"By your logic we should forever ignore this because of how a media will dishonestly frame the arguments of people who point this out."
Chris, when you read my words like this, you're missing the crux on what I really said. I can repeat all of this again, but I guess that won't make it any clearer.
I guess not. Agree to
I guess not. Agree to dissagree and all that. I respect your opinion but I think self-censorship is almost always wrong, including in the case of DRG and all things Israel. If Israel/Israelis/Zionists DID play a key role in 9/11 it is not the movement DRG is protecting, it is them. A show trial that stops at the White House would not be good enough for me, and I hope not good enough for you either. DRG has opened the door for many and I appreciate him for that and will continue to use his work in my activism but I don't think he or anybody else deserves a pass.
Agree to disagree = too easy to say
Agree to disagree = easy to say. No problem with that, but this was about arguments not about disagreeing, since my arguments are denied.
You keep talking about self-censorship or worse. I do not recognize my own words in your replies. This is actually causing noise in what I'm trying to say. If I was a typical conspiracy theorist I might have called this disinfo. You see how small and easy these things work out?
In previous replies I already tried to explain that this kind of 'moral' talking, using 'truth' as a steamroller instead of intending to have truth as a final result, will be exactly the disinfo that 'agents' are trying to accomplish, using relatively the smallest amounts of energy themselves.
Please respond on what I'm actually saying. Therefore I asked in previous response to forget all those labels on people.
You're saying --If Israel/Israelis/Zionists DID play a key role in 9/11 it is not the movement DRG is protecting, it is them. -- This kind of language sounds horrifying to me, with the same idiom Bush was using for his particular doctrine.
So why am I disinfo exactly?
So why am I disinfo exactly? No offense but you are a bit hard to follow. I admit I do kind of take offense at you comparing me to the Bush doctrine-I'm sure you meant the "us against them" thing and not the pre-emptive war doctrine though. I am not calling for "war" on DRG or even "harsh condemnation", just for consistency. I don't believe anyone deserves a pass. And for the record, though I really dont get into this sort of thing but you brought it up-I would consider DRG more in the "us" category than the "them" one.
Disinfo is what WE do. Agents just try to provoke that !
@Chris
You don't seem to read my replies carefully. English is not my native language and has to improve a lot, but reading back, I just see everything explained. Indeed my vision isn't just about the good and the bad and using truth as crowbar for everything. Things are more complicated than that.
I tried to explain why your denial of my arguments, by naming our different view 'agree of disagreement' made discussion almost impossible. Than you went on with the same arguments and suggesting [me and] DRG to be helping Israel instead of the movement by using self censorship (although I explained myself thoroughly). This can be explained as 'noise'.
I was very precise on that.
And if I was a stereotype conspiracy theorist it could even be labeled as 'disinfo'. I used that phrase to show how easy things can be fucked up when not using at least some of the ethical and methodical tools that are common in science. And science is wat DRG is about. That's also the reason why he is taking so much heat.
BTW, disinfo is much more than the simple efforts of an agent. When agents are active, they just try to stimulate the way of communication we are having on this very moment.
A skillful disinformation agent is just pulling and pushing a little bit on the right moment. Disinfo is what WE are producing! Agents just try to provoke that, don't you see?
So, let David Ray Griffin act as a scientist and not behave like an activist. The very worst thing he could do is politicizing his splendid work. He is in the right position to chose his momentum when criticizing Israel. He feels the heat and he can sense when some cool will occur.
I did not mean to imply that
I did not mean to imply that either you or DRG are knowingly helping Israel(or the likely Zionist/Israeli perps) with your efforts. DRG may or may not sincerely think that Dick Cheney was the 9/11 mastermind and that whatever "help" Israelis gave is not important. Regardless he HAS done a lot of good work. He leaves a lot of blanks unfilled though and seems to have shifting standards depending on if you are talking about a zionist or not. The end result of his(and others) refusal to "go there" could unintentionally have the effect of "helping Israel" though. That is the problem. Ignoring facts that point towards Israel is the very practice of politicizing.
well said
When Bush is pointed to as complicit, but Silverstein is not even suggested as a possible accomplice - that is not SCIENCE, that is POLITICS.
To Frank, I think DRG is great, and he may be doing this for the best of intentions, at least I think he does. But I have to say I disagree with his tactics. He owes it to his audience, yes that is us, to give us the whole, unvarnished truth. It is a truth movement, isn't it?
Silverstein not even suggested as a possible accomplice?
Don't know what you're talking about. I didn't read all DRG's works, but in his book "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11" he describes a lot of complicit facts about Silverstein.
David Ray Griffin never says "Silverstein is guilty", but how outspoken do you expect him to be? It's all about the quality of information you provide if facts can speak for themselves. I'm not waiting for opinions. I don't even care about DRG's opinion, he is a scientist. In an event as 9/11 [something that causes so much noise and division in society] I welcome every man or woman who is able to provide us with just relevant data.
In "9/11 Truth: David Ray Griffin - "Confronting the Evidence", [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leY9SJAQqnU ] DRG is quite explicit about naming figures from the White House clan. These are so called public figures. That fact makes it easier to do some accusations.
I don't know exactly how it works with figures like Silverstein, but perhaps accusing these kinda men without using very hard evidence can cause DRG lawsuits that will bring him to bankruptcy and force him to cease his efforts to find truth acknowledged.
Yesterday I said that DRG's position is quite different and more complex than our perspective from where we can act. Don't let the same happen with him as what happened with whistleblower Michael Ruppert. This brave man is completely disarmed by the powers that be.
Like I said, Silverstein is mentioned many times by DRG, therefore I don't get your message about DRG not suggesting Silverstein as a possible accomplice. DRG is just mentioning the official accountable figures, necessary to convince people of the govt lies in efforts to gain pressure for a new investigation. That's the main goal.
http://waarheid911.com [Dutch]
http://twitter.com/W911 [English]
Ruppert has put out some
Ruppert has put out some valid and interesting stuff but even more deceptive and quite frankly bullshit stuff. Comparing DRG to Ruppert almost makes my point for me :-) I certainly don't think DRG is another Ruppert, that is not my gripe with him. Ruppert "disarmed" himself when his bullshit failed to sell as much as it previously had.
I was emphasizing the difference between Rupert and DRG
I did not compare Rupert with DRG on a scientific level. It's the difference between the two I wanted to emphasize. I made my point about the way David Ray Griffin is taking care of his strategy. Rupert was far more specific beyond a scientific level and also reckless on issues that didn't directly increase chances or pressure for a new investigation.
I feel sick in my stomach when I see your disdain about Michael Rupert, calling his work bullshit. Of course he made mistakes, we all do, but he really took some big risks and I don't like hearing so much disrespect. People who are far from the heat should be even more cautious. It doesn't seem - you talking like this - that you have been under fire. If so, you should have talked differently and more humble against those people who fight the same struggle. This is just destructive behavior. It won't help one bit to have the truth acknowledged.
I did my very best to explain my words, without getting the sense that the meaning of my words was included in the replies. Every time I have to repair what is dis-formed in the reply. I'm not surprised since many fora everywhere has to deal with this kind of stereotype behavior - sometimes linked to a certain kind of activism. A tendency to expect everybody to cling to that activism-like behavior. Ego-driven and copied from each other (meme) as almost a way of life. I described this in some previous contributions.
I'm still hoping that a core of contributors on this forum will make a difference, with in their mindsets a mix of knowledge, common sense and restraint towards co-truthers who they disagree with.
I'm not against critics, in the contrary, but we need the good kind of criticism. Not all the time the same suspicion and ungrounded accusations against those within the truth movement who really take the heat and all the risks. For now I stop responding in this thread.
Ruppert is COMPLETELY full of BS
He was one of the original poo-poo-ers of pursuing the explosive demolition angle, he promoted ridiculous BS like the Delmart Vreeland scam, and was an endless source of self-promoting drama. If you are going to try to rehabilitate Mike Ruppert on this site you are going to be fighting an uphill battle, pal. More and more it seems you're only here to promote the kind of fake unity bullshit that the shills count on to help protect them from being called out.
"you're only here to promote the kind of fake unity bullshit .."
@Gretavo
I was just releasing some irritation about the way I saw discussion evolving in this thread. I saw signs of the same mechanism in previous threads. It seemed that I was disturbing a couple of synchronized mindsets, not willing to eventually correct any pre-formatted set of ideas based on arguments. Just this evening I'm suddenly granted with clear conclusions.
The way you call me "pal" after warning me not to rehabilitate Mike Ruppert on your site, after I used him in an example where he essentially differs from the way DRG is operating, is a revelation to me. I am somebody who is not familiarized in all the codes and taboos about what is allowed to say and what is not. I'm not looking for partners or allies. Your warning to me tells in fact everything that every serious visitor needs to know.
Your accusation to me that I'm promoting something that is helping the shills, is jaw-dropping. It proves how small the minds are set. The reason I invested some of my energy in your site [I guess you are the owner/moderator] was because I agreed in some critics on 911Blogger. The fact that they refused information without telling why or without responding on questions. Maybe -I hope so - they are able to learn from what happened. Maybe not...
Here I expected to be able to speak-out freely on a responsible way. Till the latest moment I thought I was able to contribute with bringing your site to another level. Well, today shows I was deadly wrong!
Your behavior towards my cautiously written contributions as a pure standalone - of course connected but never dependent - is even dominating your own worst critics on 911Blogger.
I think that, after your words and after the way my contributions were defined, you'll agree that I better stop my contributions. That's also my own conclusion.
BUT, if you really are behind your ideas and statements, be a man and keep this complete thread intact and visible on your site. It will attract you pals and will warn guys who understand just a little from what I have tried to say.
I will not delete my account. It's not necessary for you to remove it either, because I never violated any rule. Perhaps in the future I'll be back, cuz you never know if or how little miracles occur.
I call em like I see em
For you to say you were sickened to your stomach by someone calling Mike Ruppert's work bullshit says a lot about you, my friend. I have no intention of deleting your account or the thread--why would I?
You're contradicting yourself, Frank
"I expected to be able to speak-out freely on a responsible way."
Who is stopping you from speaking out freely on this site? Perhaps what you really meant is that you were hoping to be able to push certain view-points here without people disagreeing with you and calling out BS arguments whenever or wherever they see them. If that was what you were hoping for, then I can see why you are disappointed. Here, we call em like we see em.
It seems that you came here with a "pre-formatted set of ideas" and an agenda to shift the discussion we frequently have on this site regarding intra-movement critiques and identifying shills and frauds, towards some sort of "we're all one big happy family" and nobody should be mistrusted no matter their track record of dishonesty and disinformation that many of us here have been able to identify over many years of observation. Your exact quote was, "I thought I was able to contribute with bringing your site to another level."
So, you think you are smarter than all of us here, and need to guide us to another level? Who are you exactly? Thanks but no thanks. Actually, Frank Ho, perhaps it is you who needs to bring your thinking to another level.
Here's what I recommend, Frank Ho. If you are a genuine truth advocate and are just a newbie who hasn't had a chance to come up to speed with the deeper levels of the so-called truth movement, that could be why you appear so naive. Understand that most of us did not start out believing all these LIHOPers and other frauds were shills and fakes until we spend years observing patterns of dishonesty and disinformation. I would let go of some or your arrogance or whatever it is that you came here with and I would sit back and try to learn some more from us before jumping the gun and getting on your high horse and claiming that we have a problem and just don't get it. Actually, you will find that this site is an amazing repository of information and educational material. You have a lot to learn, apparently, from your naive observations and arguments. On the other hand, I have also seen that it takes a certain bit of intelligence to understand the methods and tactics of master con-men and disinfo artists, and some people are never able to grasp the bigger picture and develop a good BS detector. So, this site is not for everyone, and we really don't care if you or anyone else passionately disagrees with our focus and analysis. But don't expect us to just suddenly jump up mold ourselves to your agenda. Thanks for stopping by, Frank.
couldnt have said it better
thanks keenan. indeed, Frank, no one here is stopping you from expressing your opinions or views. BUT you must understand that we here have been at this for a loooong time now, have seen these characters like Ruppert rise and fall, have at times been suckered by them only to be left with egg on our faces and quite frankly we don't take kindly to people stopping by and acting as if we're way out of line when, for example, we call Ruppert a bullshit artist extraordinaire. we have also seen a veritable parade of characters much like yourself who stop by here briefly to first extend an olive branch of sorts then, when we don't change our views to their satisfaction based on their overt friendliness, to tell us off, warn us we'll never get anywhere with our approach, then leave in a huff. there's no reason to take anything said here personally as no one knows you personally and we are only reacting to something an anonymous (as far as we know) internet persona is saying, with which we strongly disagree.
You became the thought police
@Gretavo
That sounds almost funny:
"Frank, no one here is stopping you from expressing your opinions or views."
No, Gretavo, in fact I'm hunted by a 'thought police'. Almost everyone who is condemning my reply is complimenting his predecessor who did exactly the same. It's almost a religion ;-)
Your warnings yesterday about me mentioning Rupert, combined with the utmost disdain, not only towards Michael Rupert but also to me, is symbolic for the way how disputes are being 'solved' within your domain. Not really solved.
I sensed this all the time. I read the pieces about Gold en the other guy to read myself into your mindset and available facts. I agreed on some levels, but responded on the kind of exaggeration and dis-productive language aimed at persons, not at facts.
Back to Rupert: I did not defend one thing he have said! He was just compared with DRG for his different approach, his recklessness. Just read it back, this time without all that bias. I only defended him where he was named with so much disdain and arrogance. But I clearly pushed the wrong button. This website loves riding an emotional roller-coaster. But that's no place for balancing and valuable conclusions.
I'm suggested, by Keenan, to have not the intelligence to understand what is really going on. Just another deceptive argument to deny my carefully chosen arguments. The landscape here seems an intellectual desert. It does not provide the tools to produce decent conclusions out of decent premises. There is just no room for having that kinda play-field. Everything is based on emphasizing the same pre-formatted conclusions based on fear.
Gretavo: "we have also seen a veritable parade of characters much like yourself who stop by here briefly to first extend an olive branch of sorts then, when we don't change our views to their satisfaction based on their overt friendliness, to tell us off, warn us we'll never get anywhere with our approach, then leave in a huff."
It is not about pushing opinions and expecting others to except it. It is about weighing arguments, something that was structural denied all the time. I'm not interested in opinions. But unfortunately, it was the other way around: My arguments where denied and I was warned seriously and emotionally (w/ great disdain) about my way of speaking out. Now you're saying that "nobody is stopping me from expressing my opinions or views" ;-)
THE MAIN REASON I was trying to connect to you with arguments, is that I'm very concerned about the emotional hijacking that I see happening here. The condemning of dissident views and the general fear of being entangled by the disinfo industry. You became the thought police, like the victim who became the perpetrator. This is the glorifying embodiment of all those parties who wants to shatter the truthmovement. Several times I was the one being labeled as being part of the chills. Hilarious but sad. I really don't grant the real chills this kinda success.
Classic case of projection.
Classic case of projection. It is YOU who seems to be intolerant of dissenting views. Like the criticism of DRG and Ruppert-criticized for very different reasons I should point out.
here's what I see
You show up here, Frank, claiming to be concerned, as we are, about the way discourse is being controlled on 911blogger. You subsequently chime in on this post by Casseia about David Griffin's essay on left gatekeepers-great, with you so far! Then the user Zorglub, who is not a particularly prolific poster at WTCD, says something about DRG ignoring Israeli involvement and a few people give their (varied) opinions. One of these, from an anonymous poster, goes farther, saying people should ask why Griffin is protecting Israel, to which you respond. Still, everyone actually discussing and not just leaving single comments like Zorglub and the anonymous ones, is being respectful and simply stating their disagreement with what you appear to be saying. Then you say:
"Please do not listen to my words in labels [agent, conservative, coward --- I just randomly say some words]. When I carefully criticize the way things are being handled, in a perspective of strategy, there should be no need for suspicion. To be critical is okay [please be], but listening in labels prevents listening to what I'm actually saying. In fact, I responded several times on replies that suggested things I've never said or meant. Let's just try not to meme each other."
Here you're begining to accuse people of "listening in labels" and having your words twisted so that you "responded several times on replies that suggested things I've never said or meant". Nobody at this point had been treating you with suspicion, however--you simply pulled that out as an apparent reaction to the fact that people disagreed with you.
That disagreement, from the best I can make out, is on the question of tactics. Are we better off, like DRG, not focusing much if at all on the role Zionism may have played (the circumstancial case), or should we expect DRG to have the same (or even a fraction of the) courage in raising those issues as he does when suggesting possible Bush/Cheney complicity so that we not leave all discussion of Zionism vis a vis 9/11 in the hands of someone like Christopher Bollyn or Eric Hufschmid. As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that DRG is deliberately out to protect Israel, nor are you arguing that no one should ever speak about Israel.
When people then say well Frank, I guess we have to agree to disagree, you complain that it isn't really disagreeing because your "arguments are being denied". Well, Frank, that's kind of what it means to disagree. In the process of arguing (rightly) that Griffin has not completely ignored Larry Silverstein (which someone else seemed to imply he had), you said "Don't let the same happen with him as what happened with whistleblower Michael Ruppert. This brave man is completely disarmed by the powers that be." Now that to me really sounds like you're praising Mike Ruppert. You go on to say that we shouldn't call his work bullshit. Well sorry Frank if we were too quick to do that, but I really was taken aback by it. Ruppert really is about as obvious a disinfo shill as there. Now, maybe I was a bit harsh in jumping to the conclusion that no honest truther could still at this juncture have any faith in Ruppert. If that's the case then I apologize and will gladly go into more detail about him--did you, I wonder, follow the link I posted to where we have discussed Ruppert before? If you did, and don't find anything problematic about him and his statements about the truth movement (denigrating research into things like the wtc demolition) then by all means feel free to argue your point. But don't say we are threatening you to not support him because that's simply not true. If you support him, then do so with arguments, not by complaining that we are wrong to call him names, which we may or may not be, but which as you know is not the real issue here--the real issue is as you say facts. And how well someone like Ruppert, or DRG for that matter, represents them.
Just talking to labeled visions, no direct response on arguments
@keenan
I understand the logic and the coherence of your plea. I also understand that you experienced my newbie presence as you describe it:
"I would let go of some or your arrogance or whatever it is that you came here with and I would sit back and try to learn some more from us before jumping the gun and getting on your high horse and claiming that we have a problem and just don't get it."
This is a typical one too:
"On the other hand, I have also seen that it takes a certain bit of intelligence to understand the methods and tactics of master con-men and disinfo artists, and some people are never able to grasp the bigger picture and develop a good BS detector."
I do not blame you for the arrogance to put it like that ;-) But the fact is that my arguments are rarely being answered. In any discussion it is a basic rule to work to a conclusion by weighing each others arguments.
On this forum I was just talking to labeled visions, strongly protected by a small group of like-minded people. My efforts where sincere, I even put this website on the portal of waarheid911.com, which is visited by many new visitors each day because it's aimed at a non-biased audience.
I consider the DISINFO you're talking about indeed as a serious problem and I consider this website as one of the best examples being victimized by the mechanisms that produce disinfo. When I first read about Sunstein & co I knew this kind of excessive behavior would explode till new highs. This is ironically what often happens when people are driven by fear for something.
However, I do not say that disinfo from external 'agents' does not exist, but I explained in previous contributions that this [the excessive hunt on every dissident sound] produces the most damaging kind of information flow. This is really bad for the so called 'truth movement'. Hopefully this discussion will ring some bells on other places where people try to transfer truth about 9/11 to their audiences.
The general mindset seems so hysterically aimed at disinfo, or agents or people who might harm 'the movement', that everyone who dare to have been proven wrong in the past is sentenced for life.
This kinda cramp is the most effective way of disabling a movement, instead of just providing the audience the information they need to make their own conclusions.
I'm completely convinced that I'm unable to be an extra small factor of value for this website. The Griffin/Silverstein 'dispute' can emphasize this awareness. This high valuable man is almost on the hitlist of his own allies, people who work on the same goals. Condemned by prejudgment, hardly corrected by dissident behavior.
It was indeed my position as a newbie that I first had to learn this. My next one is replying Gretavo....
http://twitter.com/W911
With all due respect, what
With all due respect, what the hell is your argument? Outside of-"do not criticize anybody" you don't seem to have one. You like Jim Fetzer too? And I am NOT comparing DRG to Fetzer or Ruppert but nobody is above criticism, constructive or harsh if needed,as is the case with Ruppert.
huh?
"The Griffin/Silverstein 'dispute' can emphasize this awareness. This high valuable man is almost on the hitlist of his own allies, people who work on the same goals. Condemned by prejudgment, hardly corrected by dissident behavior."
Dude, are you high? Almost on the hitlist?? Yes, there are people on this site who think DRG should speak and write more about the Zionist angle. There are also people like myself who are among those who (for lack of a better phrase) make excuses for him because our gut tells us that DRG knows what he's doing and has absolutely no intention of protecting anyone guilty of assisting in the crime and/or cover-up of 9/11. Have you seen this little thing that has been in the right hand column of this blog for over a year now?
Dr. David Ray Griffin
A website documenting the work of the most credible and widely respected author on the truth about 9/11.
On the other hand, people like Jon Gold on sites like 911blogger, truthaction, and their allies have been badmouthing Prof. Griffin for years now as "damaging the movement by promoting absurd theories, etc." At the same time that Jon Gold disses DRG and lumps him (and me for that matter) with obvious agents/headcases like Nico Haupt, he claims that 911BLOGGER IS COMPROMISED?! When 911blogger is being moderated and overrun in comments by the very people he bitches to on truthaction?? Why are you getting on our case AT ALL is what I want to know. Are you that clueless to what these people are doing?
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 997
Last edited by Jon Gold on Mon May 17, 2010 4:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 997
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 353
Location: West Virginia
Yet when they post their absurd theories (like the no planers re: the Pentagon) their posts are vigorously voted down. They then complain of some kind of conspiracy to censor them.
Even though the wtcdemo folk were invited by the mods at blogger to return to the site many were banned from, it appears that many posters at blogger still have sense enough to differentiate between legit research and pompous theorizing dressed up as accepted fact.
Its a shame that some of the biggest barriers to mainstream acceptance of the need for a new investigation stems from the movement itself.
_________________
Because revolution in our culture has always represented an attack on hierarchy, it has always meant upheaval--literally a heaving up from below. But upheaval has no role to play in moving beyond civilization. If the plane is in trouble, you don't shoot the pilot, you grab a parachute and jump. To overthrow the hierarchy is pointless; we just want to leave it behind.
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 997
I know, I know!!! Because like the debunkers, they're not on the side of 9/11 Truth.
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 1311
Location: Los Angeles
Great list. Couldn't let it pass without a shout out to Les Jamieson.
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 559
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 997
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 997
Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 997
You know exactly why I came here
@Gretavo
"Why are you getting on our case AT ALL is what I want to know. Are you that clueless to what these people are doing?"
You know exactly why I came here. But in discussion there is one golden rule, let the substance be your guide. Use arguments based on what the opponent has to say and respond substantially. That's simple and always save, but seems very hard to follow-up.
I saw some really ugly names in the lists you're providing me. Don't know what your point is. By bullying the bad guys you're just giving them ammunition. It's just an emotional and endless fight which distracts almost every truthfinder.
It's not about the good and the bad. It's about information, showing mechanisms and let the reader decide if somebody is bullshit. But you won't listen to anything I have to say, because I'm a 'newbie'. I've no part in your church, that's what I can read between the lines.
A good listener knows I'm no chill or agent, nor trying to weaken your work. Weakening is what seems to happen after all those personal attacks on what I tried to achieve with carefully choosing my words.
Ruppert was a fake Plant from the beginning
It is now beyond question that fake eyewitnesses were planted from the beginning in New York (like "Harley Guy") and outside the Pentagon (USA Today Mike Walters, Gary Bauer - signatory to Project for a New American Century, Ted Olsen's fake call from Barbara Olsen giving the only account of hijackers wielding boxcutters, etc.) to steer people towards the official myth of 9/11.
I am now convinced that a parallel effort on the part of the perps involved planting fakes in the Truth Movement from the beginning to steer people towareds the official myth of 9/11 - specifically pushing people to embrace the most crucial part of the 9/11 psyop which is the "Islamofascist Menace" with all the fake bread crumb trails to Patsystan and Pork Chop transfers and Bush/Bin Laden family intrigue that entails. Mike Ruppert stepped up and enthusiastically accepted that role perfectly. In fact, it seems like Ruppert must have been waiting in the wings with the speed that he was able to hit the ground running with that ready-made spin before the dust even settled on the WTC and managed to pretty much manipulate the whole truth movement in its early years away from physical evidence and towards the fake hijacker backstory. Uncanny...until people started to see through his BS after the physical evidence started leaking out anyway despite Ruppert's efforts.
By 2004, evidence of the WTC demolitions began to percolate throughout the truth movement and it was at that point that
Ruppert saw the writing on the wall and officially quit the 9/11 truth movement and declared it a dead issue. That, of course, was just before the truth movement exerienced its fastest growth rate ever, carried by the success of disseminating the compelling physical evidence regarding the WTC and Pentagon, the effect of which was to punch a big whole right through the middle of Ruppert's Patsystan/ fake hijacker BS.
Yep, Ruppert and Sander
Yep, Ruppert and Sander Hicks and possibly Jon Gold(though he seems too dumb to be on the take to be honest) were planted to sustain the "scary muslims!!!" crap imho. Failures.
more on Ruppert...
...thanks Keenan!
http://wtcdemolition.com/blog/node/2503
this will be an interesting project
I have all of DRG's books... I'll try to find every and any instance of him talking about Silverstein and see where the truth lies. If anyone wants to help, just do the same with any DRG book you have and we'll make short work of it. Seems like the most fair and accurate way to settle this dispute, no?
EDIT: changed this into a blog post with a link to searchable google book versions of DRG's stuff...
Frank is correct on Larry S
David Ray Griffin writes: "It certainly seems beyond belief that Silverstein, who had made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7, would reveal not only that the building was deliberately demolished but that he himself had made the recommendation."[i] Beyond belief or not, Larry Silverstein is on the record saying of Building 7 that on 9/11 he suggested "maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it" and then "they made that decision to pull, and we watched the building collapse."[ii] "Pull" is an industry term for controlled demolition.[iii]
http://www.real-debt-elimination.com/real_freedom/Propaganda/false_flag_...
(no endorsement of the site)
Thanks, those quotes and
Thanks, those quotes and more about Silverstein are in the book I already mentioned: "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11". Those passages are added in a long epilogue starting with the second American edition.
If you google there is more, although the Silverstein issue is so obvious that not much discussion is needed to prove the significance of his role.
Also David Ray Griffin in Hustler:
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050604140153943
Saturday, June 4 2005
by Bruce David and Carolyn Sinclair [Hustler]
David Ray Griffin:
"Further evidence of Building 7 being brought down by controlled demolition came from Larry Silverstein, the man who had recently taken a lease on the entire complex. In a PBS documentary from September 2002, Silverstein said he told the fire commander that the smartest thing to do was "pull it." Next, he says, they "made that decision to pull" and watched the building collapse. Pull is a term commonly used to describe using explosives to demolish a building. Silverstein allegedly made almost $500 million in profit from the collapse of Building 7."
BTW, when I saw him in 2006 in Amsterdam he told the same facts in his speech. No way he was trying to hide these facts. I'm just responding to complement the information provided by juandelacruz.
I had no idea that I had to prove my remarks on DRG and Silverstein because it's so easy to find, otherwise I should have given the information immediately.
Strong but shortly on Silverstein:
http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchive/2005-05-22-571pglie.php
11. The omission of Larry Silverstein’s statement that he and the fire department commander decided to “pull” Building 7 (28).
I admit i was mistaken about
I admit i was mistaken about DRG on Silverstein. If you do not want to be accused of promoting fake unity, you have to be careful who you promote. I am not from the US myself and sometimes dont understand what is going on there. But saying what you said about Ruppert, really showed you were out of the loop. You have to do your homework, he is as close to a designated disinfo as they come. Study the case of the NYC Activist, David Shayler, and others.
Some of them start with very good info on 9-11 but eventually evolve to discredit 911 truth or to pass on and promote bad info.
Lastly, this site itself has been targeted by disinfo in the past.
@juandelacruz I thank you
@juandelacruz
I thank you for your openness to seriously try to debunk by comment on David Ray Griffin and Silverstein. Not being dominated with bias, but by searching seriously. It isn't too difficult to find things on DRG and Silverstein. And why should DRG deny Silverstein's role or silence it? It is so obvious!
But in reply of your advise not to promote certain figures:
1) I didn't promote Rupert, said nothing substantial about him, just compared his presentation with DRG's to explain why DRG is in my point of view on the right track.
2) This side has a full mouth about censorship, but isn't able to let people freely speak-out about certain persons or idea's. Even basic arguments are not save here.
When somebody decides here to promote, let's say Judy Wood. I'm exaggerating, because who dares? But I should be able to debunk her approach quite fast with arguments, and without calling people names or getting angry. Fill in anybody you want, but why can't arguments be the tool to steer into the right direction? And perhaps I turn-out to be wrong on Judy Wood ;-).
When somebody does not respond on arguments, a common disease on the internet, you can always ask him to stop or whatever is needed to cancel a non-discussion. But on this website it seems the other way around. Here the 'presidium' is the bad example. It decides what people might say or otherwise they are being bullied or accused of being part of the enemy. They do exactly what they blame to 911Blogger. One positive thing is that Gretavo allows this discussion to happen.
Okay, enough energy for now.
Frank, what do you think would happen...
...if you went to truthaction or 911blogger and used the same logic to tell them that they are wrong to ban people for simply being known to post at WTCD. Or if you went to truthaction to tell them that they shouldn't post ridiculous and sloppy smear pieces on me that are clearly untrue, that accuse me of spying on and even trying to poison local activists? How about if you told them they shouldn't be using fake names to write to my employer to accuse me of wrongdoing? Can you, to be fair to everyone, go ahead and do that and report back to us on the reaction you get? Can you also give us your opinion on whether the things they do are things that one would expect genuine activists to do?
Well, since you seem to
Well, since you seem to allow more discussion than the parties you're mentioning, I do hope that they will follow this 'discussion'. What I say to you can be recognized by anyone who's doing the same or worse.
I already made that distinction between you and let's say 911Blogger. It's hard working to create a culture of free speech. In a society where we lack this opportunity (corporate media isn't free speech) it's hard to learn how to discuss things the way it should, focused on the substance and far away from personal attachments (and attacks) without creating 'friendly fire' all the time (because of 'the agent' that can be in our mid).
That's the nightmare we are in, and the real playground for agents.
Frank, the agents are not in our minds
There really are people who are up to no good. Some may post on this board--I don't know for sure of any, but like I tell people "You can trust me 100% but you'd be a fool to take my word for it." Basically meaning that there is no point in assuring each other we are not agents, when any one of us COULD be one. Now, there is behavior and even opinions that throughout the years we have learned to associate with the likelihood someone is up to no good. Claiming that they believe no planes hit the towers, for instance. Or advocating violence, or using otherwise inflammatory (bigoted, e.g.) language. We don't tolerate those things and in fact the few people who have been suspended from WTCD were Killtown, the infamous no-plane hit the WTC advocate, and a few people who either couldn't or didn't want to make it clear they knew the difference between Jews and Zionists, or who came too close to advocating violence, i.e. it could be argued that that is what they were doing--and not once but repeatedly after being asked to stop. We are FAR from being of one mind on anything on this site. As you can see in this thread I am more willing to cut DRG slack on Zionism than a few other people--and I appreciate the give and take of opinions on this subject because it allows me to really think about what I believe and why I believe it. I've come to have a lot of respect for the regulars here, for their independence of thought and fearlessness in stating their views even when they disagree with each other. I should hope that by now people know that they can tell me I'm wrong, or contradict everything I say, and that as long they are doing it sincerely there will never be any policing or censorship. While we won't always be perfect in our judgment calls I think there is no question that we are more fair and open than 911blogger or truthaction or pretty much anyone else.
I read that as "midst"
"The agents in our midst." There are agents in our midst. I think we all agree on that -- just not on who they are.
I know that agents exist. But we are providing their ammunition.
@Gretavo
I didn't want to suggest that the agents are just in the minds of people. I literally admitted that agents are active here and there. But I also emphasized that those agents are no James Bonds or exciting figures from the movies. They are possibly some losers with highly developed skills to change or divide portions of information within certain groups or movements.
Those guys are presumably not telling us what we have to think. There skills are psychological and aimed at processes within groups. Their work will be pushing and pulling the right buttons on the right moment. This way of acting will make them almost invisible or untraceable as being agents. They need to be extremely efficient. Their goal is to let us 'destroy' each other. As simple as that.
It's not very heroic or colorful. We tend to make them much bigger than they are. IT IS BIG, because we bite as ravenously predators in every piece of meat that is thrown into our direction. That is what I explained so many times: that we are producing the noise ourselves, and that's exactly the job an agent has to trigger.
The news about Cass Sunstein was a perfect move into the direction of creating chaos within the truth movement. This news alone was able to create lots of fear and paranoia towards each other. That's typical work of agencies and agents! But in the end we are doing the damaging job ourselves.
You suggest that I take those agents not seriously, but I do! I tried to explain how to deal with it. I said, try to forget them. Be cautious, but have trust in the substantial information on 9/11 that you have to offer. Let that be your main goal. Do not bite in those poisoned apples, meant to poison anybody in your surroundings with distrust.
Gretavo:
"While we won't always be perfect in our judgment calls I think there is no question that we are more fair and open than 911blogger or truthaction or pretty much anyone else."
To be honest (I really have no intention to offend you and I don't think you are dishonest when you stated the quote above:
But I don't think that wtcdemolition.com is more open and more honest. Nevertheless I do think the intentions are honest.
As a whole the forum seems victimized by the hysteria triggered by agents, those silly basters. Differently than you suggested in your argument [at least from my point of view] I do sense a lot of prejudice against people with other mindsets than conventionally expected. It's just very strange that several people suggested that I first had to share (or be part of) the consensus of this forum. That's just crazy. I mean, I'm well informed on 9/11 and I accept the rules. Isn't that enough to have good, that means substantial discussion?
The strong point I can add to your testimony is the willingness and indeed openness to defend your values and intentions. I belief those intentions are valid. I consider your attitude to me in some of your replies today (or yesterday) as unnecessary rude and unprofessional, but I slept well and don't take things to personal.
Still I see a big problem and danger in the evolving grip that agents seem to have on the hysteria about their existence. This mistrust and the 'friendly fire' they create is much, much more dangerous then the so called disinfo they will spread. If we lose our cohesion because we presume that disinfo is everywhere, we will fail to gain strength and credibility to people we still need to convince.
Therefore I urged several times, with arguments, that disinfo is not the most important peril. We can win without beating agents [you can't actually beat them] mainly by keeping focused on 9/11 itself and provide information as good as possible to a broad audience in the format they trust. Just information, not opinions, no morals. It's all about getting truth acknowledged. One victory at a time.
I think this is much better
We actually seem to be getting somewhere in establishing where we disagree, without the need for either of us to suspect or accuse each othe rof anything. When you say:
"This mistrust and the 'friendly fire' they create is much, much more dangerous then the so called disinfo they will spread. If we lose our cohesion because we presume that disinfo is everywhere, we will fail to gain strength and credibility to people we still need to convince."
I agree that the mistrust and friendly fire they create is a problem, and I might even agree that it is a bigger problem than the disinfo they will spread. I'm much more comfortable saying that now that most people realize that the towers were blown up--it was not always so clear that it would come to that--it didn't for years, after all, despite how obvious things like WTC7 were to us. Now it seems we still have to worry about a) whether the hijackings actually occurred as we are told they did, b) whether one of these hijackings resulted in a passenger plane being flown into the Pentagon, and c) whether the 9/11 op was purely homegrown or in some big way "Made in Israel". These are all issues that are both huge in terms of the meaning of 9/11 and of 9/11 truth but also, perhaps not coincidentally, issues around which much of the specific disinfo (as opposed to the general, mistrust-inducing-and-group-cohesion-destroying disinfo) these days is aimed.
I think we need accuracy as much as, probably more, than we need unity. Perhaps we disagree on this, and I am not going to resort to calling you disinfo for disagreeing. Nor do I want to have to constantly be told that this position hurts the movement. My position is that while disunity can hurt the movement, it can't kill it, whereas inaccuracy strikes at the very heart of the truth movement.
Accuracy not unity
Is correct, Gretavo. Whenever I stressed that at blogger they couldnt hear me. We need to get to the rock-bottom truth, even risking disunity. Life itself is one whole, but works in deep paradoxes like night/day, life/death, love/hate.
This is how stupid and blind the owners at blogger are, thinking to purge, censor and unify! Sounds like a political movement!! Watch out!!
Lillyann
2) This site has a full
2) This side has a full mouth about censorship, but isn't able to let people freely speak-out about certain persons or idea's.
You are confusing 'not letting people speak out' with letting people speak out (as you have been let) but people not agreeing with you.
If you have any point of view to add to any of the specific discussions on credibility here then chip in, but if you read any of the hundreds of threads here that document why dissidents here from blogger were (actually) censored, then you will quickly see that we generally hold a view that the Lihop movement within 911 truth are counterproductive and should be called out as such, with a clean divide made between us.
If you disagree,and are merely upset that we don't agree with you, then maybe you are in the wrong place.
If you want to play chess they maybe don't go to the scrabble club? or at least don't expect the scrabble players to change to chess instead?
I think it is a matter of respect, you seem to have come with little understanding or respect of the consensus here,
and have become upset because little respect has been shown you in reciprocation.
If you want to argue specific points, then I am sure you will be engaged here, but if you promote generalized unity, largely ignorant of the weight of testimony, evidence, and experience here, then you will likely encounter disagreement.
Respect?
@allende admirer
Sorry for my last response today, cuz I have visitors waiting.
You:
"You are confusing 'not letting people speak out' with letting people speak out (as you have been let) but people not agreeing with you"
I already explained this several times. It's not about opinions, it's about handling arguments, being substantial. My whole website is about information, carefully selected. I'm not telling my readers what to think. I hope that my selections are easy enough to comprehend for people to make their own conclusions. The same can be used on suspected agents, etc.
I was able to speak out, but not without being bullied and defined as wrong, dangerous, part of the chills, etc. That is not the surrounding for free speech. That's exactly the same what mainstream is doing with calling us conspiracy freaks.
You:
"I think it is a matter of respect, you seem to have come with little understanding or respect of the consensus here,
and have become upset because little respect has been shown you in reciprocation."
The kind of consensus is the real problem. It's the opposite of scientific culture and just functioning as something religious. I'm not upset at all, I didn't react emotional with all those accusations I had to listen to. I'm just turning the mirror into your direction. I dealt many times with this kind of activist-like, but also egocentric behavior. Like everybody should be part of that culture, even the scientists among us.
Respect means keeping the substantial part of someones message intact and then respond. That response maybe hard, as hard as possible, but constantly aimed at the substance. That's exchanging arguments respectfully.
Sorry, but if you want to
Sorry, but if you want to equate a consensus of educated people who have a great deal of knowledge and experience of a subject to religious blind faith, then there is little point in this conversation.
Presumably people are in this movement because they want to expose 911 truth, and hopefully achieve a consensus amongst the public that leads to change backed by the democratic social and cultural validity that a consensus gives you?
I'm not challenging the question how much knowledge somebody has
Again, I'm not challenging the question how much knowledge somebody has, but only the way he/she is trying to 'sell' it to others, people with different opinions based on their own knowledge and experience (e.g. in spreading controversial information). Discussing over and over about the same ideas between equal minds won't bring valuable insights any further.
It was suggested several times today that I need to know and respect the consensus here before speaking out. You also made this remark. I don't understand this. I mean, I'm just polite, critical, open and substantial. Do I need more to be allowed to make my point without being labeled as a chill?
When I experience how some equal mindsets each time are covering each other on the same issues or concepts, without considering the substance and the context I used to explain myself, than indeed I consider this as blind faith. Blind faith has nothing to do with the complexity of the concept.
In this example their is no self correction, nor space to reconsider. The 'meme' will become rigid and almost religious, included all the moral rejections if the concept is not adapted. That is exactly what I was experiencing the last few days.
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
You keep making false assumptions
You seem to have a difficult time understanding that people may disagree with your arguments and logic for perfectly valid reasons. It seems that you have instead equated disagreement with your arguments to the following assumptions:
* people are labeling you a shill (in fact, nobody here has labeled you a shill)
* people are not considering the substance and the context of your argument
* people here must have blind faith in the "consensus" beliefs
* people here must not understand the complexity of the concept
* people here are incapable of self correction, nor space to reconsider
* people here are rigid and religious in their disagreement with you
* people here are thought police
* you are not allowed to speak freely
So far, Frank, you have come up with an endless list of how our view points MUST be wrong and invalid simply because we still have not come around to agree with your point of view. In other words, you apparently don't seem capable of considering the possibility that people might actually have any valid reasons to disagree with you. Now, step back for a minute and try to put yourself in our shoes. Just consider how arrogant and rigid YOU appear. In fact, to look at it more objectively, when you continue to make those kinds of assumptions about everyone who disagrees with you, don't you think that a 3rd party observer might start thinking that YOU are projecting all the very same assumpions onto us that are actually true of YOU, yourself?
Do you think you are the first person to make these kinds of arguments around here? Believe me, Frank, we have all heard your exact same arguments before from many people over the years regarding how "damaging" it is to the truth movement to discuss controversial intra-movement critiques and how we shouldn't label or discuss how other "leaders" or "activists" might be disinfo or dishonest, etc., because it is divisive and blah, blah, blah. Seriously, Frank, we have all been exposed to these arguments and discussions for YEARS. You have not offered any new opinions or perspectives or complexities that we haven't all heard before.
So, please, stop with the assumptions already and consider the fact that you might be projecting your own inability to consider other peoples' view points that are different than your own. Try to consider how arrogant you are being by continuously making such baseless assumptions. Maturity is about becoming aware of your own fallibility and admitting that you don't know better than everybody else. Your unwillingness to consider other points of view will greatly hamper your educational process and will make it difficult for you to have civilized debates with others.
These are a lot of words,
These are a lot of words, repeated multiple times by equal mindsets within a group of people that fully agrees how stubborn and arrogant I am.
It's funny how you're trying to assure me that through the years many before me have spoken the same words as I do ;-) I belief you. You're not the first person today who is telling me that. So maybe I'm right for a tiny little bit?
No need to respond on all your text. The most is already said many times. The crux is nevertheless that most of my arguments are answered with labels. Packets of automatic responses, used against chills or worse. That's my whole point. My arguments were quite precise. The responses were from the answering machine.
In that mechanism you'll find the root of all that agents are trying to achieve. People with different opinions based on their individual knowledge and life experience, not able to talk with each other, due to fear and mistrust.
It will make an evolving intellectual based discussion with an equal and vivid consciousness impossible. The movement will implode and stay behind as an example of idiots on the edge of society, fanatically calling for truth.
just more assumptions and projections
I guess we are at the point where we agree to disagree, or more specifically, agree to talk past each other with a refusal on your part to consider any of my arguments or points. So now you just dismiss everything we say as coming from an answering machine? OK then, it's been fun...bye now
Problem is you're taking
Problem is you're taking everything personal. Don't feel offended, sometimes some contrast is needed to make a point as clear as possible.
I'm basically not on that point where we agree of disagreement. Because therefore both parties should be well informed about each others message. I'm not so sure if that is a fact ;-)
Have a good night!
You're so right, I still
You're so right, I still can't figure out what your point is.
The walls are closing in on
The walls are closing in on us here so perhaps you would like to continue this discussion on a new thread named. Open invitation to Frank Ho to discuss his disagreements with this site.
@Allende Admirer See it as
@Allende Admirer
See it as you prefer to see it. Every time I sense a frustration about me criticizing 'this site'. I guess why? Why am I treated as an opponent? I'm serving the same goals. Is this symbolic for the situation in the truthmovement, the tending that everybody sees an enemy in each sound that differs from the 'consensus'? Why am I expected to accept this consensus before joining any discussion?
Don't you see that creating this kinda atmosphere is the main goal of disinformation agents, paralyzing the movement? Nobody can force or control the way people should act within a complete open 'organisation'.
I think this thread is not about right or wrong. I don't care how people will judge me because I know my intentions. I don't care, I'm not that important. It was not my goal in the first place be against something. I'm just analyzing. Why the animosity and/or cynicism?
All my activities on 9/11 (website, news feed, adviser) are based on stimulating an optimal transfer of information towards a broad audience and trying to help keeping the so called 'truth movement' free from destruction. I know this is WTCDemolition.com, but felt more destruction than that.
Same story for 911Blogger, however they seem to be more subtle. They seem less destructive on a short term, but perhaps more dangerous on the long term. The fact that I was able to speak out here, although heavily attacked without considering my arguments seriously (not talking about agreeing), shows the different attitude compared with 911Blogger. I still hope the attitude will change for all parties.
Frank, I have tried...
...several times in this thread alone to break down what I consider to be where we disagree, with very little if any response from you. What do you mean then, that your arguments are not being considered seriously? The one here who seems to be talking only, and not listening, is you.
I think you can hardly say
I think you can hardly say that my response was little. I had a hack of a job to carefully answer all those questions, with the many repeats I had to make when the crux of my answers was missed in the defensiveness of the replies.
I don't need to beat somebody, it's not about that. I can't refute your complaints to me, because I honestly don't recognize any of it. I guess we are finished than and let the visitor (who is interested) decide.
But not without first having a look on this other new thread with my name in it ;-) I already said that my activities are that busy that I can't answer every question or response being made. But I did quite a lot arguing and not scanty.
and appropriately enough...
...this column has nearly vanished.