Scott N. aka Danse Tries in Vain to Warn the Truefascists About Zionism
As some may remember, Danse was actually WTCD friendly until a year or two ago when he accused us of being too focused on "ZIHOP". Now and then he is the only voice of reason among the shills at truthaction.org, and this is one of those times. Now, some at true faction are smart enough to at least pay lip service to the plight of the Palestinians, but not everyone. What they are unwilling to do however is drop the pretense that however evil and crazy Israel and Zionists continue to show themselves to be, to name them as the prime suspects for 9/11 is something only "jew-haters" would do. And should we be proven right, can we expect that they will apologize and admit that yes, Zionism was an evil every bit as bad as Nazism? Of course not. They will make excuses, say it wasn't *all* Zionists, just some bad apples, and that they were right to use every dirty trick in the book to smear as haters those who tried to warn people of the growing danger.
Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:00 pm Post subject:
Quote: couldn't defenders of Israel also post quotes by Hammas leaders calling for the destruction of Israel?
Well, there are crucial differences. While certain Hamas figures may have engaged in inflammatory, anti-Jewish rhetoric over the years, they do not have any policy -- unwritten or not -- regarding the destruction of multiple nations in response to an existential threat. Nor do they have the capability to destroy their enemy, let alone other countries. Israel does have such a capability, and does have such an unwritten policy. It's called the Samson Option. Is it a real threat? More on this momentarily.
Quote: personally i don't think that's any more fair than the myriad pro-war anti-arab websites that quote the most inflammatory anti-western messages from middle east madrassas - in an attempt to condemn an entire people for the extremist words of a few.
I have the utmost respect for Israeli peace groups and Jewish anti-Zionist organizations. Unfortunately they represent only a small, increasingly toothless portion of Israel. The Gaza slaughter was supported by over 80% of the population. This statistic reveals a level of brainwashing on par with Nazi Germany, the United States, North Korea and other "crazy" nations throughout history.
It's not that the Israeli people don't want peace, it's that the majority have been trained to view extreme violence as the best -- or even only -- means to achieving that goal. I'm not aware of any polls conducted in Israel regarding the Samson Option, though one can assume that support for such a measure would be exceedingly small. Perhaps that's the point you were alluding to. The problem is that the Israeli people no more run their government than the American people run theirs. Indeed, if you look at the Dr. Strangeloves in the Pentagon/Rand Corporation during the Cold war, there were many top military personnel who can only be described as clinically insane: genocidal nutcases who sincerely advocated a first strike against the Soviet Union.
Quote: i kinda see this as a little bigoted - in that - it does not concern itself with actual political process and policy - but instead points to a singular voice and tries to paint a picture of "THOSE PEOPLE" over there.
I would agree with this sentiment if we were talking about some lone nut professor whose ideas were completely out of touch with those of the political establishment, past and present. But there is reason to believe this is not the case.
In his book, The Samson Option, Seymour Hersh includes a quote from a “former Israeli govt official” with “first hand knowledge of his government’s nuclear weapons program”: "We can still remember the smell of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Next time we’ll take all of you with us."
He also quotes then Israeli defense minister Ariel Sharon as saying: "We are much more important than (Americans) think. We can take the Middle East with us whenever we go."
Other interesting claims in Hersh's book:
Quote: # How Israel threatened to use nuclear weapons on the third day of the 1973 Yom Kippur War, blackmailing U.S. President Richard Nixon into airlifting military supplies.
# that Israeli missiles targeted the Soviet Union from 1971 on; that the Soviets had added four Israeli cities to their target list; that the Soviets had threatened Israel after the 1973 war because Israel kept breaking ceasefires with Egypt.[8]
# That during the 1991 Gulf War Israel pointed nuclear armed mobile missiles at Iraq.
# That Israel holds a few neutron bombs in additional to several hundred
# President John F. Kennedy attempted to persuade Israel to abandon its nuclear program, and angry notes were exchanged between Kennedy and Israeli Premier David Ben-Gurion in 1963.other nuclear weapons.
# The White House under Kennedy was “fixated” upon what to do about Israel’s nuclear weapons. However, none of the prominent Kennedy biographers, including Arthur Schlesinger and Theodore C. Sorensen mentioned the fact.
# Menachem Begin’s conservative party coalition, which took power in 1977, was more committed to “the Samson Option and the necessity for an Israeli nuclear arsenal” than the Labor Party. Rather than merely react to attack, they intended to “use Israeli might to redraw the political map of the Middle East.” Begin, who hated the Soviet Union, immediately targeted more Soviet cities with nuclear weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Samson_Option_%28book%29Mordechai Vanunu has alleged that Israel uses for purposes of blackmail its ability to "bombard any city all over the world, and not only those in Europe but also those in the United States." ("Vanunu Confirms Israel's Global Thermonuclear Blackmail," An Interview With Hesham Tillawi, PhD, December 19, 2009.)
Quote:
in 1973's Yom Kippur War Israel was almost overwhelmed by Arab forces. Prime Minister Golda Meir authorized a nuclear alert, ordering 13 atomic bombs be prepared for missiles and aircraft. Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Simha Dinitz threatened “very serious conclusions" if there was not an immediate airlift of supplies.[9] This forced U.S. President Richard Nixon to make emergency airlifts of state of the art military supplies to Israel.[10][11]Fearing intervention by the Soviet Union, U.S. forces went on Defense Condition (DEFCON) III alert status[12], something which could have led to full scale nuclear war in case of misinterpretation of signals or hardware or software failures.
--
Israeli Israel Shahak wrote in 1997: "Israel clearly prepares itself to seek overtly a hegemony over the entire Middle East...without hesitating to use for the purpose all means available, including nuclear ones."[33] Zeev Schiff opined in 1998 that "Off-the-cuff Israeli nuclear threats have become a problem."[34] In 2003 David Hirst noted that “The threatening of wild, irrational violence, in response to political pressure, has been an Israeli impulse from the very earliest days” and called Israel a candidate for “the role of 'nuclear-crazy' state.”[35] Efraim Karsh calls the Samson Option the “rationality of pretended irrationality,” but warns that seeming too irrational could encourage other nations to attack Israel in their own defense.[37]
http://carolmoore.net/nuclearwar/israelithreats.html
Many notable Jewish scholars and journalists, including Chomsky, Fisk and Joel Kovel, believe the Samson Option is not just bluster but a real threat to the human race.
Chomsky:
Chomsky (continued): As for the Samson option, that's actually real. I mean, I said before that if the United States essentially tells Israel, "you've got to withdraw", they'll almost certainly do it. But they do have an option. It was called – It goes back to the 1950s. [If] you look at the Israeli records back to the 1950s, when they were a weak state, not a powerful state, they did say – the top leadership, you know, the Defense Ministry and others (this is the Labor government) – that if anybody crosses us, "we will go crazy". That was the phrase that was used: "we'll be a crazy state; we'll do something so wild that they'll be forced to do what we want." Well, they couldn't really do that back in the 1950s. But once they have nuclear weapons options, they can. And in fact if you read US military journals, you find analyses saying that the Israeli nuclear weapons are a threat to us. You know – not that they're going to attack us, but they'll do something that will cause such, you know, blow-up in the world that we'll get in real trouble. Okay, that's the "Samson option". It goes back to the biblical story of Samson who, you remember, killed a lot of Philistines, and then they caught him and blinded him. And he was in a Philistine temple. He'd gotten his strength back; his hair grew. (You've all learned this stuff.) And he stood between two pillars, and he pulled down the pillars, and the ceiling fell, and he killed more Philistines in his death than in his lifetime. He was basically the first suicide-bomber, who killed lots of Philistines. He's a hero, you know. But that's the Samson option: "we'll bring the temple down, even if we kill ourselves." And it's real, you know. And it's a danger. The more we strengthen Israel's military capacity, the greater the threat to us. I mean, the former head of the Strategic Command, General Lee Butler, after he left it – . (That's, you know, the part of the military that controls strategic weapons, including nuclear weapons.) He was very straight about it; he said, the greatest threat in the region is that Israel has this extraordinary destructive capacity, which first of all impels others to try to match it, but also is an enormous danger in itself. [http://www.basicint.org/pubs/Research/1998nuclearfutures(2).pdf] So we may be shooting ourselves in the head by letting a crazy state develop. And the craziness of the state is not because the people are insane. Once you pick a policy of choosing expansion over security, that's what you end up getting stuck with.
I disagree with Chomsky that Israeli leadership would "do it" [the Samson Option] if given an ultimatum by the United States. Rather, they would engage in a nuclear false flag attack or something similar. The problem is that the results would probably end up the same.
People who try to mitigate criticism of Zionism may be well intentioned but they are not acting in anyone's best interests, least of all the Jews. Zionism is the worst enemy of the Jewish people, and is every bit as dangerous as capitalism, militarism and whole host of other "isms" that need to be abolished, and soon, before we all go up in smoke.
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let's see if anyone accuses Scott N
of calling for the destruction of Israel for saying that Zionism "need[s] to be abolished, and soon". Cause it kind of sounds like he wants to wipe Israel off the map... :)
I should say I am all in favor of wiping Israel off the map, since a map is simply a piece of paper representing the political reality at any given moment. When the Soviet Union was wiped off the map I don't recall it being categorized as a crime against humanity, afetr all. I would not of course wish to see the land currently called Israel by some wiped off the face of the earth, or the people who call it Israel to be harmed or expelled from the land they decided, however unjustly, to call home.
here's Danse/Scott in his now legendary...
...ZIHOP is Limited Hangout essay:
Read the above in light of the U.S. Congress or President Obama's clear lack of any spine to stand up to Israel with regard to the flotilla massacre. Is that for the sake of our glorious American empire? For our oil-lust? Is that why? Really, Scott?
Danse has to look further up
Danse has to look further up the food chain to see how it all fits
The tail(Israel) wags the
The tail(Israel) wags the dog(US). Look at the architects of the Iraq war, both in the media and in the Bush administration. A majority of them are Israeli firsters.
That is how it seems, and I
That is how it seems, and I don't think its because Netanyahu or some other bigshot Likudnik owns Bush, Cheney and everyone else who pitched in on the 9-11-Afganistan-Iraq project. Maybe he owned Bush, maybe not. Cheney,I doubt it, but there are so many others from around the world that are playing the same tune and I find it doubtful that Netanyahu controls them all with Mossad swallows/ravens. Some of them, I would venture found the project would benefit their interests (oil, power, money) as I think this is why Cheney was there. Others such as the news media in the US, UK and Australia cannot possibly be under direct control of Netanyahu. Netanyahu seems to struggle to control even Israel, I do not think he can control several continents on his own. And here is the point, he is not acting alone which is why this whole thing moved forward and is still going strong today(any mention of 9-11 truth in MSM - nada, US troops still in Afghanistan - yes, US troops still in Iraq - yes, US troops now in Pakistan - yes).
It is possible but less likely that the project was executed by a network of equals. A hierarchical network controlled from the top is more likely to be able to maintain secrecy and compliance in a project that requires international coordination and long time frames. The question is who is that sitting at the top of this network. It ain't Netanyahu, but is almost definitely a more powerful yet secretive Zionist.
of course Netanyahu isn't the top dog
pointless to speculate who it might be, but we can pretty much guess by their fruits...
i know that you know this G,
i know that you know this G, I only recycled this old info for the benfit of annoymouse
sorry my brain is fried...
...been spending a lot of time today jousting with Zionists about Helen Thomas...
Intolerable Hulk says....
Comparing Zionism to Nazism? You crypto-nazi!!!
The ADL-interrogation of
The ADL-interrogation of Scott N has been initiated by JohnA. Danse really needs a trial in the Canadian courts like Zundel got.
yep, here is Albanese's indictment
Albanese is, along with Jon Gold, one of the least intelligent of the fake truthers. And, in my opinion, one of the most genuinely bigoted against arabs and muslims. He hides behind words like "madrassas" and "terrorists" in order to spew his hatred for an entire group of people who he clearly considers subhuman, to be exterminated under the pretense of "fighting terrorism". What else can one conclude about someone who insists on propping up the Islamofascist myth while posing as a "truth activist"? Meet the modern day brownshirts--meet racist hater John Albanese:
Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:37 am
that's quite an impressive volume of information.
you really DO seem to have a boner for zionism - don't you?
Rolling Eyes
but - putting this in perspective - i do think the sheer volume of your posts on this subject - and much of the hyperbole you employ - reveals a bias that i think flirts with racism.
for starters - i think there are many anti-semitic groups and individuals out there who cower behind the word 'zionism' as an excuse for 'feelings' that far outstrip the issue at hand. many of these individuals obsessed with the subject of 'zionism' also deny the holocaust and/or attempt to forward ideas that are equally repugnant. so - you will have to excuse me if the "Criticizing zionism is not anti-semitic" meme - in my eyes - is somewhat tired and tainted.
but - taking you at face value - i do have some problems here.
i find that there is a certain amount of exaggeration in your work. while i find all fundamentalist viewpoints - whether religiously based or nationalistic in nature - to be dangerous. That is the story of mankind. But, your singular obsession with zionism as:
Quote:
real threat to the human race.
... to be somewhat hyperbolic and shrill.
and including quotes like this:
a
Quote:
quote from a “former Israeli govt official” with “first hand knowledge of his government’s nuclear weapons program”: "We can still remember the smell of Auschwitz and Treblinka. Next time we’ll take all of you with us."
these quotes, when presented out of context, appear to be designed to stir hysteria and fear. and as we know, hysteria and fear can be MORE dangerous than any one nation state. It was not GERMANY that brought about world war 2 - it was fear and hysteria - and human beings who thoughtlessly repeat and spread propaganda.
one would wonder why you appear to be so focused on THIS threat - while seemingly silent on others?
In recent weeks Israel killed 9 Gaza relief workers. a terrible crime.
but - also in recent weeks North Korea intentionally torpedoed a south korean ship traveling in international waters - sinking it - and killing 48 people. Since that event the Korean peninsula teeters on all out war - with the very real prospect of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons being used. I would wonder how the Israeli 'threat' trumps this - and why so much of your time and energy is devoted to 'saving humanity' from the zionist threat - whilst current events of equal or worse proportions unfold without a peep from you?
the world is a dangerous place. surely zionism is not the ONLY threat to world peace?
so - on the basis of PROPORTION - i find your work to be biased and hyperbolic in nature.
but another thing concerns me"
Suppose I were to post here - day in and day out - about the threat of islamic-based terrorism. suppose I were to simply focus on ONLY this one aspect of current events.
I could post about the horrific attacks in Mumbai India.
I could warn the world that Pakistan has nukes - and warn against the threat to all humanity. (shudder)
I could list all of the terrorist attacks over the last 50 years in graphic bloody detail.
i could publish quotes from actual islamic-based madrassas and immams that teach hate and intolerance.
i could talk about the call to murder people who simply publish unflattering cartoons.
I could talk about the threat of nuclear terrorism.
i could talk about the tradition of honor killings.
i could talk about the tradition of intolerance to women's rights and gay/lesbian rights - in many cases resulting in executions.
i could make sure that EVERY FACT i present is 100% correct - drawn from historical records.
but i would still be wrong.
i would still be wrong in the same way YOU are still wrong.
i would be stoking hysteria, fear and bigotry. i would be CHERRY PICKING my facts. Again - even if those facts are correct - it is the methodology of propaganda to present facts - such as you do - in great volume - in a vacuum - out of context - without the broader context of regional history and the complex dynamics involved - designed to stoke fear and anger.
that's how holocausts happen.
in talking about Israel you refer to "Brainwashing on par with Nazi Germany." I find this comment to be repugnant and culturally insensitive - and i think it says more about you than it does about the people of Israel.
surely you are aware that comparing the people of israel to nazi germany is culturally insensitive - and you know why - and you SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
it is YOU sir who beat the drums of war. when you speak of "Abolishing" zionism in such hysterical terms - with nuclear tipped missiles poking out from under our beds - you are giving aid and comfort to those very same people who call for VIOLENCE against jews worldwide. It is CARELESS and culturally insensitive - and out of proportion to the totality of challenges - worldwide - that we currently face.
your energies would be better served calling for an abolishment of starvation or ecological rape - than carelessly stoking the flames of anti-semitism that has plagued this world for centuries - led to millions being killed - and has all but destroyed the credibility of 9/11 Truth.
Make no mistake about what i am saying. Israel is NOT above criticism or condemnation. But what YOU appear to be doing is not limited to criticizing individual issues of state policy and individual historical acts. YOU appear to be populating the same grey area that so many anti-semites love to populate - hiding behind WORDS like ZIONISM to condemn an entire people. you use the same facts and rationale that we see certain OTHER websites employ that talk in the most cavalier way about 'toasting jews' and 'the alleged holocaust' - leading such prominent organizations as the Weisenthal Center to label the 9/11 Truth movement as anti-semitic.
you are not helping 9/11 Truth - and you are not helping the cause of world peace.
it is your BELLICOSE voice on this SINGULAR issue that reveals you. The amount of energy and time that you spend propagandizing the 'threat to humanity' coming from Zionism borders on hate speech - whether you realize it or not - no less than those voices who CHOOSE to ONLY focus on the horrors of terrorism and its roots in some islamic based communities.
we don't need that.
you're not helping
perhaps your energies and enthusiasm would be better served cleaning up the wetlands of Louisiana - a REAL threat to humanity - rather than aiding and abetting hate speech.
John Albanese, what a blowhard.
I haven't read that whole thread but I just saw JA's latest post:
silly distractions Scott?
please - by all means- keep us up to date on this threat to humanity that is Israel. please - let us know when they plan to take the entire world down - as you have claimed.
define silly
John Albanese would easily
John Albanese would easily make a list of "top 10 most annoying 9/11 truth personalities"(and most damaging to actual 9/11 truth). I'm just happy he hasn't made any movies since his last one.
What to make of this by
What to make of this by JohnA?
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nazi germany? is that careful and sober use of the english language limited to just a critique of zionism? no - to MY ears it is a condemnation of a entire PEOPLE. it is neither scientific or well-measured. it is in fact politically careless. it is a blanket statement that is culturally offensive to jews and - although may FEEL right to Scott - is purely subjective - and the product of his own personal bias.
how do we measure such a thing? Perhaps Israel is only as brainwashed as Italians under Mussolini. lol is there a tool somewhere for measuring the BRAINWASHYNESS of people?
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The only sense which I can get from it is that he, JohnA, condemns the entire German people because of the Third Reich. That's the only meaning I was able to get from this. His argument seems to be that Scott N's comments alleging that USAians or Israelis have been brainwashed in a way which bears a parallel with the Third Reich must be a condemnation of an entire people. That only makes sense as an argument if he, JohnA, condemns the entire German people himself. So is this just JohnA's racism in action again, or did I miss the point?
and Scott N.'s response...
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:40 pm
Quote:
but - putting this in perspective - i do think the sheer volume of your posts on this subject - and much of the hyperbole you employ - reveals a bias that i think flirts with racism.
You're completely out of line. I post here on a huge variety of topics, ranging from ecological issues to political philosophy to films I enjoy. I pay less attention to Zionism than I do the Tea Party. I tend to get in more arguments about the former, but only because Tea Party types don't frequent this website. When Israel commits a major atrocity involving dozens of different nations and an act of war against Turkey, I am fully entitled to express my views.
Quote:
real threat to the human race.
... to be somewhat hyperbolic and shrill.
If you don't think nuclear weapons, of which Israel possesses over 300, are a threat to the human race then you're living in la-la land. Israel recently balked at participating in non-proliferation talks. Ironically, given your entirely baseless accusation that I'm "flirting with racism", it has also just emerged that Israel offered to sell nuclear weapons to the Apartheid Regime in S.A. -- an act that could have had genocidal consequences.
Quote:
these quotes, when presented out of context, appear to be designed to stir hysteria and fear.
Please indicate how a quote regarding the Samson option in a discussion about the Samson option is somehow "out of context". I'm pretty sure the context is crystal clear. The Samson option is the logical extension of the "mad dog" theory of foreign policy as advocated by Moshe Dayan and subsequent military/political figures in the upper echelons of Israeli power. The attack on the peace flotilla was an expression of this theory.
Raving anti-semites such as Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Seymour Hersh, Norman Finkelstein and Mordechai Vanunu have repeatedly stated their opinion that Israel is a threat to world peace. I'm curious to know why you didn't accuse any of these figures of racism when I simply echoed their concerns.
No, you were unable to counter my arguments, so you shamefully pulled the "racism" card without any consideration as to how slanderous your comments were/are. It's funny: I get accused of "defending Israel" when I dismiss or criticize "ZIHOP", now I'm being accused of "racism" for posting factual information and drawing obvious conclusions.
Quote:
one would wonder why you appear to be so focused on THIS threat - while seemingly silent on others?
I can assure you that I'm concerned about all sorts of different threats to humanity. My first two published articles don't even mention Zionism or Israel, nor do my first two (soon-to-be-released) films. The "others" you list are North Korea and Muslim extremism. I'm pretty sure these topics have been covered at great length in what we call "the mainstream media". Canada has been described as the current "best friend" of Israel on the world stage; the same cannot be said of North Korea. I consider it my duty to counter propaganda, not further it.
In case you didn't notice, there is something akin to genocide occurring in the Middle East, not of Jews, but of Muslims and Arabs. As Deepa Kumar noted in her article on Islamophobia:
it would have been quite foolish for the left to engage in a discussion of the flaws of Judaism in the midst of the holocaust, as this would only have strengthened the Nazi regime.
Quote:
surely zionism is not the ONLY threat to world peace?
A ridiculous quote, considering I spend nine-tenths of my time on this website criticizing the American government.
Quote:
i would be CHERRY PICKING my facts. Again - even if those facts are correct - it is the methodology of propaganda to present facts - such as you do - in great volume - in a vacuum - out of context - without the broader context of regional history and the complex dynamics involved - designed to stoke fear and anger.
There is a massive difference between "stoking fear and anger" and drawing attention to events for which people should rightly be afraid and angered but are largely ignorant. Perhaps you would have preferred that I preface each post with an essay about the holocaust? Because I'm pretty sure most people are aware of that footnote in history.
Quote:
surely you are aware that comparing the people of israel to nazi germany is culturally insensitive - and you know why - and you SHOULD KNOW BETTER!
Funny, a highly respected Jewish scholar named William I. Robinson recently posted a photo essay comparing the concentration camp known as Gaza with Nazi Germany. Should he have "known better" too? What about the numerous Holocaust survivors who have compared Israel to Nazi Germany? Are they anti-Semites too?
Quote:
your energies would be better served calling for an abolishment of starvation or ecological rape
I recently published an article on just that. It's called "Symbiotic Liberation". Google it.
Quote:
it is your BELLICOSE voice on this SINGULAR issue that reveals you. The amount of energy and time that you spend propagandizing the 'threat to humanity' coming from Zionism borders on hate speech
No. It is your ad hominem attacks and groundless accusations of singular focus and racism that reveal YOU. I will not sink to your level and label you a racist for defending a racist ideology; I'm guessing you simply don't know what you're talking about.
As for extreme bellicosity, look no further than the actions of the Israeli government. You are apparently so obsessed with the image and public relations of the 911 truth movement that you are willing to slander someone as a racist for criticizing Zionism and the obvious threat it poses to world peace. Your irrational attacks are clearly outside the posting guidelines of this website. I do hope the mods will not ban you, however, since your comments are a perfect example of the despicable depths to which people will sink when it comes to Israel/Palestine.
Last edited by Scott N. on Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Albanese finally gets the memo...
..or finally found someone to read it to him... they deserve each other... :)
JohnA
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 793
Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:22 pm
------------------------------------------------------------
Scott - please accept my apolgies.
i do see that i can be a little overbearing at times.
i do feel strongly about my positions here - and unfortunately will not be yielding any ground on this particular issue - but i really do not want to insinuate anything about you personally.
peace
Not so fast. It does seem
Not so fast. It does seem that JohnA is heating up again.
more from truefaction controlled opposition Scott N.
Scott N.
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: Israel and the 'war on terror' Reply with quote
I have been asked to post evidence to support my assertion that elements of the Israeli government were, at the very least, aware of the impending attacks of 911, and may have played some role in their execution.
Only the latter should be considered controversial, since it can be reasonably inferred by the hundreds of “warnings” issued to the US government prior to 911 that a great many people in a great many countries were aware that something rather earth-shaking was afoot.
The most remarkable warning came from Afghanistan itself. The BBC reported that “Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil, the Taliban's Foreign Minister, sent the USA an advance warning of the attack following a tip-off he received from Tohir Yo‘ldosh, the leader of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan.”
I have been accused of “singling out” Israel for my vociferous critique of that nation in light of the assault on Gaza and the recent flotilla massacre. I’m guessing similar allegations will be leveled here. However – unlike Zionists – I do not consider the Israeli government/intelligence services to be somehow representative of Jews, Judaism or the average Israeli citizen. Thus, when I speak about the American government in not-so-flattering terms, it doesn’t automatically follow that I hold the average American citizen responsible for the latest atrocity by the CIA.
Similarly, I have no problem discussing alleged involvement in 911 by figures of any ethnicity/religion/nationality. Just to underscore this point: I think it more likely than not that some high ranking Canadian officials working in NORAD aided and abetted the 911 attacks. Perhaps I’m a self-hating Canadian?
The accusation by some ZIHOPers that to even suggest involvement by one or more Muslims in 911 amounts to “racism” or “blood libel” is absurd. Muslims are no more homogeneous than any other group. There will always be duplicitous snakes in positions of power regardless of professed religion, and there will always be people so full of rage and so lacking in common sense that they offer themselves up as patsies to the powers that be.
I don’t blame socialists or civil rights activists as a whole for the handful of dupes who were suckered into buying explosives from COINTELPRO agents during the 60’s and 70’s. Nor do I blame Jews, Israelis, Muslims, Canadians, Pakistanis, Joe-Six Pack Americans or Inuit for 911. I blame the power principle, “the devil of history”, as Bakunin called it: hierarchical relationships based on violence which promote suicidal tendencies amongst the human race.
In my article, ZIHOP as limited hangout, I argued that the thesis suggesting “Israel did 911” is extremely implausible. It’s one thing for Israel to attack the USS Liberty in 1967 (assuming that was an Israeli false flag and not a joint operation gone awry); it’s quite another for Israel to attack the locus of planet Earth’s military power when US-Israeli relations were at an all time high.
Israel would not have been able to organize war games at the N.R.O. of planes crashing into buildings on 911; they would not have been able to shoot down F93; they would not have been able to wire those buildings without a green light by the CIA, SS and other occupants of the WTC complex. It wasn’t an Israeli who warned that Taliban that they would be “buried under a carpet of bombs” if they didn’t play ball. It wasn’t an Israeli who wrote the book (“The Grand Chessboard”) that was so ubiquitous in the Pentagon in the years prior to 911 that it was referred to as a “Paper weight”. Israel did not write the Patriot Act. And so on.
In the “war on terror” phase of human history we saw/see the convergence of different powerful groups acting in unison to support their own agendas. =Always top-down agendas. This includes Israel’s most fierce (current) critic. Turkey buys drones from Israel to oppress its Kurdish population. Amongst the great powers, Israel undoubtedly deserves scrutiny. Like any other country.
Until very recently, Israel was regarded as little more than an outpost of American military power by the Dr. Strangeloves at the Pentagon. This view was expressed most clearly by Alexander Haig, who called Israel “the world’s only unsinkable (American) air-craft carrier.”
With the publishing of the Walt/M. piece, dissident over the invasion of Iraq, and new discussions by CIA officials and other notables over whether Israel actually serves “the American interest”, this is beginning to change. A crucial fact here is that the “American interest” or “national interest” has little or nothing to do with the interests of 99% of the American population. This is something the “Zihoppers” tend to forget.
At the time of 911, even in retrospect, I see very little indication that the pentagon brass had fundamentally altered their view of Israel as “American attack dog”. If anything, the “war on terror” paradigm being pushed by Israel through the 80’s through the 90’s was seen by the MIC as a logical and fruitful replacement for the “war on communism”. We’re talking about trillions of dollars here. It has been said that “peace dividend” (a term used by President Clinton in the wake of Glasnost – he didn’t follow through, obviously) was the most terrifying phrase the folks at the Pentagon ever heard.
One of the most important themes continually downplayed or ignored by people who insist that Israel is unconnected to 911 is the evolution of war on terror mythology. 911 did not occur in a vacuum but was preceded by literally decades of propaganda, both black and white, much of it originating in Israel. These included false flag operations.
There appears to be several reasons that discussion of Israel/911 is considered beyond the pale. Unlike Pakistan. Unlike Saudi Arabia.
One is that the conditioned reflex is to scream anti-Semitism. It does not surprise me that many, perhaps most high profile figures in the movement shy away from the topic. It’s bad enough being accused of being a crazy “conspiracy theorist”. Being accused of anti-semitism is a bridge too far.
Even Jews are not immune. So the brilliant Jewish scholar William I. Robinson (editor of ‘Critical Globalization studies’) was almost fired for linking a photo montage comparing Gaza to the first stages of the Nazi Holocaust. Joel Kovel WAS fired in response to his book “Overcoming Zionism”, in which he mentioned the “Dancing Israelis” and suggested that the bombings of Synagogues in Iraq during the 80’s were carried out by Mossad.
Another problem is that many people who focus on Israel/911 ARE anti-Semites/Judeophobes. They ARE obsessed with Israel/holocaust revisionism. They believe that Jews are responsible for America’s decline. So a google search of some of the names I mention below (including Israeli whistle blowers like B e n - M e n a s h e and Ostrovsky) often lead to Judeophobic websites.
Related to above is that your average 911 truth advocate is understandably reticent to delve into such shark-infested waters. The “Jews did it” meme is usually combined with toxic disinformation and attacks against sincere activists like Jon Gold (which in itself must be considered revealing). In Public Relations terms, it seems like a perfectly sensible policy to not even “go there”.
I disagree. If we allow the Judeophobes to monopolize discussion on this issue, the problems don’t simply “go away” but fester. Well-intentioned people begin to believe there is a coverup. The best disinfectant is sunshine. That means acknowledging uncomfortable realities while also taking great care to place events in their proper context, rejecting bigotry and racism in all its guises (including Zionism), and supporting activists who are being unjustly maligned. Like Gold.
Is Israel connected to 911? I think so. And here’s why:
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Historical Roots of the “War on Terror” – from Diana Ralph’s “Islamophobia and the "War on Terror": the Continuing Pretext for U.S. Imperial Conquest”:
2. Historical Roots of the “War on Terror”
The concept of a “war on terror” pre-dates 9-11 by 22 years. Its seeds were first planted in 1979 at the Jerusalem Conference on International Terrorism (JCIT) organized by Benjamin Netanyahu (future Israeli Prime Minister). JCIT kicked off a campaign for a “war on terror” against “international terrorism” (Netanyahu, 1981). It featured: pre-emptive attacks on states that are alleged to support “terrorists”; an elaborate intelligence system apparatus; slashed civil liberties, particularly for Palestinians targetted as potential terrorists, including detention without charge, and torture; and propaganda to dehumanize “terrorists” in the eyes of the public (Ahle, 1990; Asa, 1979; Netanyahu, 1995, pp. 43-44; Peres, 1981, p. 10).
George H. W. Bush Sr. and George Schultz, Reagan’s Secretary of State enthusiastically endorsed this concept. Bush Sr. gave a speech at JCIT advocating precisely the type of “war on terror” that his son implemented in 2001. But he acknowledged that such a policy would be highly unpopular :
...I must urge drastic surgery as the only reasonable course – and by that I mean determined action, firmness under the duress of blackmail, and swift and effective retribution. …The problem for the open society is how to have, build up and preserve this essential tool of defence – which in the long run is indispensable for the protection of ordinary people – and not so outrage the liberal conscience that the legitimate exercise of state power is frustrated. (George H.W. Bush, 1981, p. 333, 337)
2.1. Israel’s ‘‘War on Terror’’11
Following the 1979 JCIT, Israel independently implemented these policies. It planned a massive invasion of Lebanon, called “Peace for Galilee” to secure its hold over the Occupied Territories. The pretext incident and the 1982 invasion itself hauntingly foreshadowed the 9-11 “attacks” and the Bush “war on terror”. In both cases, a “terrorist” pretext justified pre-emptive military conquest and long-term occupation.
In July, 1981, Israeli planes bombed Palestinian targets in southern Lebanon, killing hundreds of civilians. In 1982, it initiated over 2,600 violations of Lebanese airspace and waters, attempting unsuccessfully to spark a reaction from the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) reaction that could serve as a pretext for an Israeli invasion. On June 3, 1982, Abu Nidal’s terrorist group (which since has been exposed as a Mossad-infiltrated front, and which had been battling the PLO for years) tried to assassinate Israeli Ambassador Shlomo Argov in London. Israel “retaliated” by heavily bombing Lebanon, even though the Abu Nidal group did not operate there. The PLO responded by shelling West Bank settlements, finally giving Israel its excuse to launch a full-scale invasion of Lebanon (Chomsky, 1999, pp. 196-197). In West Bank cities, Israel also dissolved the elected city councils, dismissed mayors, arrested city employees, and attempted to impose puppet governments. Israeli troops continued to occupy southern Lebanon for 22 years, until May 24, 2000 (Chomsky, 1999, pp. 204-205; Bard, 2005).
The parallels to the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq are clear. Despite all evidence to the contrary, the Bush administration insisted Iraq posed an immanent threat to the West based on false claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and links to al Qaeda. Despite massive worldwide protests and the U.N. Security Council refusing to approve an invasion, the U.S. went ahead with a preemptive, brutal invasion, overthrowing the Hussein government it had originally installed, and replacing it with puppets. Labelling those who resist U.S. occupation “terrorist insurgents”, it has announced plans (already laid out in RAD) for a semi-permanent occupation (Rampton & Stauber, 2003).
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In 1995, Netanyahu proposed a series of policies against “international terrorism” many of which have been incorporated into the foreign policy of the U.S. and its allies, particularly since 9-11. These included: diplomatic, military, and economic sanctions on “terrorist” states; preemptive attacks on “terrorist enclaves…precisely as [Israel] does in south Lebanon”; freezing financial assets of “terrorist” organizations; sharing intelligence with other countries; passing laws to allow increasing surveillance of and action against “groups which are actively planning terrorist actions”; pursuing “terrorists” with special anti-terrorism forces; and detaining “terrorists” indefinately (Netanyahu, 1995, pp. 132-147). Israel’s unilateral assault on the West Bank and Southern Lebanon in the name of fighting “internatonal terrorism” became the model for Bush’s “war on terror.”
What happened on Sept. 11 is that the Likud doctrine, previously used only against Palestinians, was picked up by the most powerful nation on Earth and applied on a global scale. Call it the Likudization of the world, the real legacy of Sept. 11. …It was the guiding philosophy in Afghanistan and Iraq, and may well extend to Iran and Syria. (Klein, 2004)
http://911blogger.com/news/2008-06-29/islamophobia-and-war-terror-contin...
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A Clean Break
Connecting Israeli Zionist influence on America’s Foreign Policy the BBC investigative journalism show Panorama aired The War Party on May 18th, 2003 right after the start of the Iraq War. Key members of the Bush administration and the powerful American Enterprise Institute were part of a Israeli reflect tank called The Institute for Advanced Strategic & Political Studies (IASPS): www.israeleconomy.org In a report done in 1996, before the formation of PNAC, which was called “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” they listed Israeli goals and concerns: REMOVING SADDAM HUSSIEN: “Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an vital Israeli strategic objective in its own right” MIDDLE EAST STABILITY: “Iraq’s future could change the strategic balance in the Middle East profoundly, it would be understandable that Israel has an interest in supporting the Hashemites in their efforts to redefine Iraq,” CONTROL IRAQ, HELP ISRAEL: “Were the Hashemites to control Iraq, they could use their influence over Najf to help Israel wean the south Lebanese Shia away from Hizballah, Iran, and Syria.” MANAGE AND CONSTRAIN US REACTION: “To anticipate US reactions and plot ways to manage and constrain those reactions, Prime Minister Netanyahu can formulate the policies and stress themes he favors in language familiar …
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A pattern
U.S. Army Study: On Mossad
“Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target U.S. forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.”
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Lavon Affair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
Shin Bet Organized 1976 Hijacking by Palestinians
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"According to his information, the hijack was the work of the PFLP, with help from the Israeli Secret Service, the Shin Bet," he wrote.
"The operation was designed to torpedo the PLO's (Palestine Liberation Organization) standing in France and to prevent what they see as a growing rapprochement between the PLO and the Americans."
From the Jerusalem Post:
Published: June 1, 2007
The Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) may have been involved in the hijack of an Air France plane in 1976 by Palestinian terrorists, according to newly declassified British government documents released Friday.
Some 100 passengers were held by hijackers at Entebbe airport in Uganda during an eight-day ordeal that concluded when General Staff Reconnaissance Unit (Sayeret Matkal) troops stormed the building where captives were held.
24 people died in the shoot-out, including three hostages, 20 Ugandans and the commander of the rescue team, Yoni Netanyahu.
The hijackers, from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and the German Baader-Meinhof gang, deamded the release of Palestinian prisoners.
But according to the newly released documents, the Shin Bet, and the PFLP are alleged to have teamed up in an "unholy alliance" in an attempt to change foreign policy in the Middle East.
The allegation appeared in a document written by official DH Colvin at the British embassy in Paris, quoting a contact at the Euro-Arab Parliamentary Association, as the crisis unfolded.
"According to his information, the hijack was the work of the PFLP, with help from the Israeli Secret Service, the Shin Bet," he wrote.
"The operation was designed to torpedo the PLO's (Palestine Liberation Organization) standing in France and to prevent what they see as a growing rapprochement between the PLO and the Americans.
"Their nightmare is that...one will witness the imposition in the Middle East of a Pax Americana, which will be the advantage of the PLO (who will gain international respectability and perhaps the right to establish a state on evacuated territories) and to the disadvantage of the Refusal Front (who will be squeezed right out in any overall peace settlement and will lose their raison d'etre) and Israel who will be forced to evacuate occupied territory.
"Hence the unholy alliance of the hijacking."
The document also suggested that then Ugandan president Idi Amin may have been collaborating with the hijackers.
The document was released by the National Archives in London
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La Belle Discote
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Achille Lauro
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/PUM306A.html
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T H E 1 9 9 3 W O R L D T R A D E C E N T E R B O M B I N G
This is a triple case of friendly fire terrorism. The Egyptian was able to implicate an Egyptian dissident in this terrorist attack, and thus have the US put him in prison. Israel could implicate Arabs as fanatic, blood-thirsty terrorists, thus boosting the Israeli myth of being a besieged fortress fighting with its back to the wall. The FBI is happy to show that terrorism is a threat also to the US and therefore Congress should heighten the means of repression on Arabs.
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1 9 9 8 : E M B A S S Y B O M B I N G S I N E A S T A F R I C A 6 4
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/PUM306A.html
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The Mexican Parliament plot
Layne writes, "the Dow Jones database shows five English-language wire reports on Oct. 11 (two from EFE News Service, and one each from Dow Jones, AP, and Notimex), one on Oct. 12 (BBC), and one today (Agence France-Presse)."
From Crónica de Hoy, Mexico City, October 12, 2001
Unabridged Translation by The Narco News Bulletin
The Attorney General is investigating and interrogating two Israelis (one already a nationalized Mexican) who were detained in the House of Representatives Wednesday with two 9mm pistols, nine grenades, explosives, three detonators and 58 bullets, to determine if they belong to any group connected with terrorists or subversive groups.
Salvador Gersson Smike, 34, a retired Israeli military official and nationalized Mexican, and Sar Ben Zui, 27, of Israeli nationality, were held yesterday in the installations of the metropolitan offices of the Attorney General, headed by the assistant attorney general for criminal process Gilberto Higuera Bernal. They were interrogated to clarify the source of the arms that they carried and to determine if they are guilty of a crime.
Up until now the authorities have not declared about the status of investigation number PGR/11-15-01 and they will wait until tonight when the constitutional limit for determining the legal situation of the arrested parties expires.
Both subjects were detained in the installations of the legislative palace of San Lazaro when a group of sugar industry workers that had met with the Speaker of the House, Beatriz Paredes, left to discuss their issues in the lobby and the two arrested persons arrived and began photographing them.
This activity and the form in which they took the pictures (aiming their cameras below the belts of the workers) generated tension among the sugar workers who proceeded to demand their identification immediately.
The Israelis identified themselves as press photographers, but they were not believed and the workers overcame them and then discovered that they were armed with pistols and other high caliber arms.
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The Palestinian “Al-Qaeda” Cell
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ... said that al-Qaeda militants were operating in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon. "We know that they are there. We know that they are in Lebanon, working closely with Hezbollah. We know that they are in the region," he said. [BBC News - 12/5/2002]
Officials from the Palestinian Authority have accused the Israeli spy agency Mossad of setting up a fake al-Qaeda terrorist cell in Gaza. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat said that Israel had set up the mock cell in order to justify attacks in Palestinian areas. [BBC News - 12/8/2002]
Justin Raimondo of Anti-war wrote after this incident:
In all the columns I've written on this subject, my thesis has been limited in scope. I've said only that the Israelis had a certain amount of foreknowledge – to what degree is not known – and failed to warn us. Not that they were behind 9/11. Nor am I saying that now. But I have a question: If the Israelis are running phony "Al Qaeda" cells in Palestine and Lebanon, why not in South Florida, or New York?
911 [/b
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From Crónica de Hoy, Mexico City, October 12, 2001
Unabridged Translation by The Narco News Bulletin
The Attorney General is investigating and interrogating two Israelis (one already a nationalized Mexican) who were detained in the House of Representatives Wednesday with two 9mm pistols, nine grenades, explosives, three detonators and 58 bullets, to determine if they belong to any group connected with terrorists or subversive groups.
Salvador Gersson Smike, 34, a retired Israeli military official and nationalized Mexican, and Sar Ben Zui, 27, of Israeli nationality, were held yesterday in the installations of the metropolitan offices of the Attorney General, headed by the assistant attorney general for criminal process Gilberto Higuera Bernal. They were interrogated to clarify the source of the arms that they carried and to determine if they are guilty of a crime.
Up until now the authorities have not declared about the status of investigation number PGR/11-15-01 and they will wait until tonight when the constitutional limit for determining the legal situation of the arrested parties expires.
Both subjects were detained in the installations of the legislative palace of San Lazaro when a group of sugar industry workers that had met with the Speaker of the House, Beatriz Paredes, left to discuss their issues in the lobby and the two arrested persons arrived and began photographing them.
This activity and the form in which they took the pictures (aiming their cameras below the belts of the workers) generated tension among the sugar workers who proceeded to demand their identification immediately.
The Israelis identified themselves as press photographers, but they were not believed and the workers overcame them and then discovered that they were armed with pistols and other high caliber arms.
http://www.narconews.com/mexicancapitol1.html
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Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ... said that al-Qaeda militants were operating in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon. "We know that they are there. We know that they are in Lebanon, working closely with Hezbollah. We know that they are in the region," he said. [BBC News - 12/5/2002]
Officials from the Palestinian Authority have accused the Israeli spy agency Mossad of setting up a fake al-Qaeda terrorist cell in Gaza. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat said that Israel had set up the mock cell in order to justify attacks in Palestinian areas. [BBC News - 12/8/2002]
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[b]911[/b
[b]Christopher Ketcham’s report in Counterpunch:
High-Fivers and Art Student Spies
What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?
By CHRISTOPHER KETCHAM
http://www.counterpunch.org/ketcham03072007.html
On the afternoon of September 11, 2001, an FBI bulletin known as a BOLO - "be on lookout" -- was issued with regard to three suspicious men who that morning were seen leaving the New Jersey waterfront minutes after the first plane hit World Trade Center 1. Law enforcement officers across the New York-New Jersey area were warned in the radio dispatch to watch for a "vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack":
White, 2000 Chevrolet van with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals.
At 3:56 p.m., twenty-five minutes after the issuance of the FBI BOLO, officers with the East Rutherford Police Department stopped the commercial moving van through a trace on the plates. According to the police report, Officer Scott DeCarlo and Sgt. Dennis Rivelli approached the stopped van, demanding that the driver exit the vehicle. The driver, 23-year-old Sivan Kurzberg, refused and "was asked several more times [but] appeared to be fumbling with a black leather fanny pouch type of bag". With guns drawn, the police then "physically removed" Kurzberg, while four other men - two more men had apparently joined the group since the morning - were also removed from the van, handcuffed, placed on the grass median and read their Miranda rights.
They had not been told the reasons for their arrest. Yet, according to DeCarlo's report, "this officer was told without question by the driver [Sivan Kurzberg],'We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.'" Another of the five Israelis, again without prompting, told Officer DeCarlo - falsely - that "we were on the West Side Highway in New York City during the incident". From inside the vehicle the officers, who were quickly joined by agents from the FBI, retrieved multiple passports and $4,700 in cash stuffed in a sock. According to New Jersey's Bergen Record, which on September 12 reported the arrest of the five Israelis, an investigator high up in the Bergen County law enforcement hierarchy stated that officers had also discovered in the vehicle "maps of the city with certain places highlighted. It looked like they're hooked in with this", the source told the Record, referring to the 9/11 attacks. "It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."
The five men were indeed Israeli citizens. They claimed to be in the country working as movers for Urban Moving Systems Inc., which maintained a warehouse and office in Weehawken, New Jersey. They were held for 71 days in a federal detention center in Brooklyn, New York, during which time they were repeatedly interrogated by FBI and CIA counterterrorism teams, who referred to the men as the "high-fivers" for their celebratory behavior on the New Jersey waterfront. Some were placed in solitary confinement for at least forty days; some were given as many as seven lie detector tests. One of the Israelis, Paul Kurzberg, brother of Sivan, refused to take a lie-detector test for ten weeks. Then he failed it.
Meanwhile, two days after the men were picked up, the owner of Urban Moving Systems, Dominik Suter, a 31- year-old Israeli national, abandoned his business and fled the United States for Israel. Suter's departure was abrupt, leaving behind coffee cups, sandwiches, cell phones and computers strewn on office tables and thousands of dollars of goods in storage. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. The suspicion, as the investigation unfolded, was that the men working for Urban Moving Systems were spies. Who exactly was handling them, and who or what they were targeting, was as yet uncertain.
It was New York's venerable Jewish weekly The Forward that broke this story in the spring of 2002, after months of footwork. The Forward reported that the FBI had finally concluded that at least two of the men were agents working for the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and that Urban Moving Systems, the ostensible employer of the five Israelis, was a front operation. Two former CIA officers confirmed this to me, noting that movers' vans are a common intelligence cover. The Forward also noted that the Israeli government itself admitted that the men were spies. A "former high-ranking
American intelligence official", who said he was "regularly briefed on the investigation by two separate law enforcement officials", told reporter Marc Perelman that after American authorities confronted
Jerusalem at the end of 2001, the Israeli government "acknowledged the operation and apologized for not coordinating it with Washington". Today, Perelman stands by his reporting. I asked him if his sources in the Mossad denied the story. "Nobody stopped talking to me", he said.
In June 2002, ABC News' 20/20 followed up with its own investigation into the matter, coming to the same conclusion as The Forward. Vincent Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA, told 20/20 that some of the names of the five men appeared as hits in searches of an FBI national intelligence database. Cannistraro told me that the question that most troubled FBI agents in the weeks and months after 9/11 was whether the Israelis had arrived at the site of their "celebration" with foreknowledge of the attack to come. From the beginning, "the FBI investigation operated on the premise that the Israelis had foreknowledge", according to Cannistraro. A second former CIA counterterrorism officer who closely followed the case, but who spoke on condition of anonymity, told me that investigators were pursuing two theories. "One story was that [the Israelis] appeared at Liberty State Park very quickly after the first plane hit. The other was that they were at the park location already". Either way, investigators wanted to know exactly what the men were expecting when they got there.
Before such issues had been fully explored, however, the investigation was shut down. Following what ABC News reported were "high-level negotiations between Israeli and U.S. government officials", a
settlement was reached in the case of the five Urban Moving Systems suspects. Intense political pressure apparently had been brought to bear. The reputable Israeli daily Ha'aretz reported that by the last week of October 2001, some six weeks after the men had been detained, Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage and two unidentified "prominent New York congressmen" were lobbying heavily for their release. According to a source at ABC News close to the 20/20 report, high-profile criminal lawyer Alan Dershowitz also stepped in as a negotiator on behalf of the men to smooth out differences with the U.S. government. (Dershowitz declined to comment for this article.) And so, at the end of November 2001, for reasons that only noted they had been working in the country illegally as movers, in violation of their visas, the men were flown home to Israel.
Today, the crucial questions raised by this matter remain unanswered. There is sufficient reason - from news reports, statements by former intelligence officials, an array of circumstantial evidence, and the
reported acknowledgment by the Israeli government - to believe that in the months before 9/11, Israel was running an active spy network inside the United States, with Muslim extremists as the target. Given Israel's concerns about Islamic terrorism as well as its long history of spying on U.S. soil, this does not come entirely as a shock. What's incendiary is the idea - supported, though not proven, by several pieces of evidence - that the Israelis did learn something about 9/11 in advance but failed to share all of what they knew with American officials. The questions are disturbing enough to warrant a
Congressional investigation.
Yet none of this information found its way into Congress's joint committee report on the attacks, and it was not even tangentially referenced in the nearly 600 pages of the 9/11 Commission's final report. Nor would a single major media outlet track the revelations of The Forward and ABC News to investigate further. "There weren't even stories saying it was bull***", says The Forward's Perelman.
"Honestly, I was surprised". Instead, the story disappeared into the welter of anti-Israel 9/11 conspiracy theories.
It's no small boon to the U.S. government that the story of 9/11- related Israeli espionage has been thus relegated: the story doesn't fit in the clean lines of the official narrative of the attacks. It brings up concerns not only about Israel's obligation not to spy inside the borders of the United States, its major benefactor, but about its possible failure to have provided the U.S. adequate warning of an impending devastating attack on American soil. Furthermore, the available evidence undermines the carefully cultivated image of sanctity that defines the U.S.- Israel relationship. These are all factors that help explain the story's disappearance, and they are compelling reasons to revisit it now.
Torpedoing the FBI Probe
All five future hijackers of American Airlines Flight 77, which rammed the Pentagon, maintained addresses or were active within a six-mile radius of towns associated with the Israelis employed at Urban Moving Systems. Hudson and Bergen counties, the areas where the Israelis were allegedly conducting surveillance, were a central staging ground for the hijackers of Flight 77 and their fellow al-Qaeda operatives. Mohammed Atta maintained a mail-drop address and visited friends in northern New Jersey; his contacts there included Hani Hanjour, the suicide pilot for Flight 77, and Majed Moqed, one of the strongmen who backed Hanjour in the seizing of the plane. Could the Israelis, with or without knowledge of the terrorists' plans, have been tracking the men who were soon to hijack Flight 77?
In public statements, both the Israeli government and the FBI have denied that the Urban Moving Systems men were involved in an intelligence operation in the United States. "No evidence recovered
suggested any of these Israelis had prior knowledge of the 9/11 attack, and these Israelis are not suspected of working for Mossad", FBI spokesman Jim Margolin told me. (The Israeli embassy did not respond to questions for this article.) According to the source at ABC News, FBI investigators chafed at the denials from their higher-ups. "There is a lot of frustration inside the bureau about this case", the source told me. "They feel the higher echelons torpedoed the investigation into the Israeli New Jersey cell. Leads were not fully investigated". Among those lost leads was the figure of Dominik Suter, whom the U.S. authorities apparently never attempted to contact. Intelligence expert and author James Bamford told me there was similar frustration within the CIA: "People I've talked to at the CIA were outraged at what was going on. They thought it was outrageous that there hadn't been a real investigation, that the facts were hanging out there without any conclusion."
However, what was "absolutely certain", according to Vincent Cannistraro, was that the five Israelis formed part of a surveillance network in the New York- New Jersey area. The network's purpose was to track radical Islamic extremists and/or supporters of militant Palestinian groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The former CIA counterterrorism officer who spoke anonymously told me that FBI investigators determined that the suspect Israelis were serving as Arabic-speaking linguists "running technical operations" in northern New Jersey's extensive Muslim communities. The former CIA officer said the operations included taps on telephones, placement of microphones in rooms and mobile surveillance. The source at ABC News agreed: "Our conclusion was that they were Arab linguists involved in monitoring operations, i.e., electronic surveillance. People at FBI concur with this". The ABC News source added, "What we heard was that the Israelis may have picked up chatter that something was going to happen on the morning of 9/11".
The former CIA counterterrorism officer told me: "There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this basically was going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11. Bear in mind that this was a political issue, not a law enforcement or intelligence issue. If somebody says we don't want the Israelis implicated in this - we know that they've been spying the hell out of us, we know that they possibly had information in advance of the attacks, but this would be a political nightmare to deal with."
The Israeli "Art Student" Spies
There is a second piece of evidence that suggests Israeli operatives were spying on al-Qaeda in the United States. It is writ in the peculiar tale of the Israeli "art students", detailed by this reporter for Salon.com in 2002, following the leaking of an internal memo circulated by the Drug Enforcement Administration's Office of Security Programs. The June 2001 memo, issued three months before the 9/11 attacks, reported that more than 120 young Israeli citizens, posing as art students and peddling cheap paintings, had been repeatedly - and seemingly inexplicably - attempting to penetrate DEA offices and other law enforcement and Defense Department offices across the country. The DEA report stated that the Israelis may have been engaged in "an organized intelligence gathering activity", but to what end, U.S. investigators, in June 2001, could not determine. The memo briefly floated the possibility that the Israelis were engaged in trafficking the drug ecstasy. According to the memo, "the most activity [was] reported in the state of Florida" during the first half of 2001, where the town of Hollywood appeared to be "a central point for these individuals with several having addresses in this area".
In retrospect, the fact that a large number of "art students" operated out of Hollywood is intriguing, to say the least. During 2001, the city, just north of Miami, was a hotbed of al-Qaeda activity and served as one of the chief staging grounds for the hijacking of the World Trade Center planes and the Pennsylvania plane; it was home to fifteen of the nineteen future hijackers, nine in Hollywood and six in the surrounding area. Among the 120 suspected Israeli spies posing as art students, more than thirty lived in the Hollywood area, ten in Hollywood proper. As noted in the DEA report, many of these young men and women had training as intelligence and electronic intercept officers in the Israeli military - training and experience far beyond the compulsory service mandated by Israeli law. Their "traveling in the U.S. selling art seem[ed] not to fit their background", according to the DEA report.
One "art student" was a former Israeli military intelligence officer named Hanan Serfaty, who rented two Hollywood apartments close to the mail drop and apartment of Mohammed Atta and four other hijackers. Serfaty was moving large amounts of cash: he carried bank slips showing more than $100,000 deposited from December 2000 through the first quarter of 2001; other bank slips showed withdrawals for about $80,000 during the same period. Serfaty's apartments, serving as crash pads for at least two other "art students", were located at 4220 Sheridan Street and 701 South 21st Avenue. Lead hijacker Mohammed Atta's mail drop was at 3389 Sheridan Street--approximately 2,700 feet from Serfaty's Sheridan Street apartment. Both Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, the suicide pilot on United Airlines Flight 175, which smashed into World Trade Center 2, lived in a rented apartment at 1818 Jackson Street, some 1,800 feet from Serfaty's South 21st Avenue apartment.
In fact, an improbable series of coincidences emerges from a close reading of the 2001 DEA memo, the 9/11 Commission's staff statements and final report, FBI and Justice Department watch lists, hijacker timelines compiled by major media and statements by local, state and federal law enforcement personnel. In at least six urban centers, suspected Israeli spies and 9/11 hijackers and/or al-Qaeda connected suspects lived and operated near one another, in some cases less than half a mile apart, for various periods during 2001 in the run-up to the attacks. In addition to northern New Jersey and Hollywood, Florida, these centers included Arlington and Fredericksburg, Virginia; Atlanta; Oklahoma City; Los Angeles; and San Diego.
Israeli "art students" also lived close to terror suspects in and around Dallas, Texas. A 25-year-old "art student" named Michael Calmanovic, arrested and questioned by Texas-based DEA officers in
April 2001, maintained a mail drop at 3575 North Beltline Road, less than a thousand feet from the 4045 North Beltline Road apartment of Ahmed Khalefa, an FBI terror suspect. Dallas and its environs, especially the town of Richardson, Texas, throbbed with "art student" activity. Richardson is notable as the home of the Holy Land Foundation, an Islamic charity designated as a terrorist funder by the European Union and U.S. government in December 2001. Sources in 2002 told The Forward, in a report unrelated to the question of the "art students", that "Israeli intelligence played a key role in helping the Bush administration to crack down on Islamic charities suspected of funneling money to terrorist groups, most notably the Richardson, Texas-based Holy Land Foundation, last December [2001]". It's plausible that the intelligence prompting the shutdown of the Holy Land Foundation came from "art student" spies in the Richardson area.
Others among the "art students" had specific backgrounds in electronic surveillance or military intelligence, or were associated with Israeli wiretapping and surveillance firms, which prompted further concerns among U.S. investigators. DEA agents described Michael Calmanovic, for example, as "a recently discharged electronic intercept operator for the Israeli military". Lior Baram, questioned near Hollywood, Fla., in January 2001, said he had served two years in Israeli intelligence "working with classified information". Hanan Serfaty, who maintained the Hollywood apartments near Atta and his cohorts, served in the Israeli military between the ages of 18 and 21. Serfaty refused to disclose his activities between the ages of 21 and 24, including his activities since arriving in the U.S.A. in 2000. The French daily Le Monde meanwhile reported that six "art students" were apparently using cell phones that had been purchased by a former Israeli vice consul in the U.S.A.
Suspected Israeli spy Tomer Ben Dor, questioned at Dallas-Fort Worth Airport in May 2001, worked for the Israeli wiretapping and electronic eavesdropping company NICE Systems Ltd. (NICE Systems' American subsidiary, NICE Systems Inc., is located in Rutherford, New Jersey, not far from the East Rutherford site where the five Israeli "movers" were arrested on the afternoon of September 11.) Ben Dor carried in his luggage a print-out of a computer file that referred to "DEA Groups". How he acquired information about so-called "DEA Groups" - via, for example, his own employment with an Israeli wiretapping company - was never determined, according to DEA documents.
"Art student" Michal Gal, arrested by DEA investigators in Irving, Texas, in the spring of 2001, was released on a $10,000 cash bond posted by Ophir Baer, an employee of the Israeli telecommunications software company Amdocs Inc., which provides phone-billing technology to clients that include some of the largest phone companies in the United States as well as U.S. government agencies. Amdocs, whose executive board has been heavily stocked with retired and current members of the Israeli government and military, has been investigated at least twice in the last decade by U.S. authorities on charges of espionage-related leaks of data that the company assured was secure. (The company strenuously denies any wrong-doing.)
According to the former CIA counterterrorism officer with knowledge of investigations into 9/11-related Israeli espionage, when law enforcement officials examined the "art students" phenomenon, they came to the tentative conclusion that "the Israelis likely had a huge spy operation in the U.S. and that they had succeeded in identifying a number of the hijackers". The German daily Die Zeit reached the same conclusion in 2002, reporting that "Mossad agents in the U.S. were in all probability surveilling at least four of the 19 hijackers". The Fox News Channel also reported that U.S. investigators suspected that Israelis were spying on Muslim militants in the United States. "There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9/11 attacks, but investigators suspect that the Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it", Fox correspondent Carl Cameron reported in a December 2001 series that was the first major exposé of allegations of 9/11-related Israeli espionage. "A highly placed investigator said there are 'tie-ins'. But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, 'evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information.'"
One element of the allegations has never been clearly understood: if the "art students" were indeed spies targeting Muslim extremists that included al-Qaeda, why would they also be surveilling DEA agents in such a compromising manner? Why, in other words, would foreign spies bumble into federal offices by the scores and risk exposing their operation? An explanation is that a number of the art students were, in fact, young Israelis engaged in a mere art scam and unknowingly provided cover for real spies. Investigative journalist John Sugg, who as senior editor for the Creative Loafing newspaper chain reported on the "art students" in 2002, told me that investigators he spoke to within FBI felt the "art student" ring functioned as a wide-ranging cover that was counterintuitive in its obviousness. DEA investigators, for example, uncovered evidence connecting the Israeli "art students" to known ecstasy trafficking operations in New York and Florida. This was, according to Sugg, planted information. "The explanation was that when our FBI guys started getting interested in these folks [the art students] - when they got too close to what the real purpose was - the Israelis threw in an ecstasy angle", Sugg told me. "The argument being that if our guys thought the Israelis were involved in a smuggling ring, then they wouldn't see the real purpose of the operation". Sugg, who is writing a book that explores the tale of the "art students", told me that several sources within the FBI, and at least one source formerly with Israeli intelligence, suggested that "the bumbling aspect of the art student thing was intentional."
When I reported on the matter for Salon.com in 2002, a veteran U.S. intelligence operative with experience subcontracting both for the CIA and the NSA suggested a similar possibility. "It was a noisy operation", the veteran intelligence operative said. The operative referred me to the film Victor, Victoria. "It was about a woman playing a man playing a woman. Perhaps you should think about this from that aspect and ask yourself if you wanted to have something that was in your face, that didn't make sense, that couldn't possibly be them". The intelligence operative added, "Think of it this way: how could the experts think this could actually be something of any value? Wouldn't they dismiss what they were seeing?" U.S. and Israeli officials, dismissing charges of espionage as an "urban myth", have
publicly claimed that the Israeli "art students" were guilty only of working on U.S. soil without proper credentials. The stern denials issued by the Justice Department were widely publicized in the Washington Post and elsewhere, and the endnote from officialdom and in establishment media by the spring of 2002 was that the "art students" had been rounded up and deported simply because of harmless visa violations. The FBI, for its part, refused to confirm or deny the "art students" espionage story. "Regarding FBI investigations into Israeli art students", spokesman Jim Margolin told me, "the FBI cannot comment on any of those investigations." As with the New Jersey Israelis, the investigation into the Israeli "art students" appears to have been halted by orders from on high. The veteran CIA/NSA intelligence operative told me in 2002 that there was "a great press to discredit the story, discredit the connections, prevent [investigators] from going any further. People were told to stand down. You name the agency, they were told to stand down". The operative added, "People who were perceived to be gumshoes on [this matter] suddenly found themselves hammered from all different directions. The interest from the middle bureaucracy was not that there had been a security breach
but that someone had bothered to investigate the breach. That was where the terror was".
Choking off the press coverage
There was similar pressure brought against the media venues that ventured to report out the allegations of 9/11- related Israeli espionage. A former ABC News employee high up in the network newsroom
told me that when ABC News ran its June 2002 exposé on the celebratory New Jersey Israelis, "Enormous pressure was brought to bear by pro- Israeli organizations"--and this pressure began months before the piece was even close to airing. The source said that ABC News colleagues wondered, "how they [the pro-Israel organizations] found out we were doing the story. Pro-Israeli people were calling the president of ABC News. Barbara Walters was getting bombarded by calls.
The story was a hard sell but ABC News came through the management insulated [reporters] from the pressure".
The experience of Carl Cameron, chief Washington correspondent at Fox News Channel and the first mainstream U.S. reporter to present the allegations of Israeli surveillance of the 9/11 hijackers, was perhaps more typical, both in its particulars and aftermath. The attack against Cameron and Fox News was spearheaded by a pro-Israel lobby group called the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), which operated in tandem with the two most highly visible powerhouse Israel lobbyists, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (itself currently embroiled in a spy scandal connected to the Defense Department and Israeli Embassy). "CAMERA pep- pered the *** out of us", Carl Cameron told me in 2002, referring to an e-mail bombardment that eventually crashed the Fox News.com servers. Cameron himself received 700 pages of almost identical e-mail messages from hundreds of citizens (though he suspected these were spam identities). CAMERA spokesman Alex Safian later told me that Cameron's upbringing in Iran, where his father traveled as an archeologist, had rendered the reporter "very sympathetic to the Arab side". Safian added, "I think Cameron, personally, has a thing about Israel"--coded language implying that Cameron was an anti-Semite. Cameron was outraged at the accusation.
According to a source at Fox News Channel, the president of the ADL, Abraham Foxman, telephoned executives at Fox News' parent, News Corp., to demand a sit-down in the wake of the Cameron reportage. The source said that Foxman told the News Corp. executives, "Look, you guys have generally been pretty fair to Israel. What are you doing putting this stuff out there? You're killing us". The Fox News source continued, "As good old boys will do over coffee in Manhattan, it was like, well, what can we do about this? Finally, Fox News said, 'Stop the e- mailing. Stop slamming us. Stop being in our face, and we'll stop being in your face--by way of taking our story down off the web. We
will not retract it; we will not disavow it; we stand by it. But we will at least take it off the web.'" Following this meeting, within four days of the posting of Cameron's series on Fox News.com, the
transcripts disappeared, replaced by the message, "This story no
longer exists".
What did Mossad know and tell the U.S.?
Whether or not Israeli spies had detailed foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks, the Israeli authorities knew enough to warn the U.S. government in the summer of 2001 that an attack was on the horizon.
The British Sunday Telegraph reported on September 16, 2001, that two senior agents with the Mossad were dispatched to Washington in August 2001 "to alert the CIA and FBI to the existence of a cell of as many as 200 terrorists said to be preparing a big operation". The Telegraph quoted a "senior Israeli security official" as saying the Mossad experts had "no specific information about what was being planned". Still, the official told the Telegraph, the Mossad contacts had "linked the plot to Osama bin Laden". Likewise, Die Zeit correspondent Oliver Schröm reported that on August 23, 2001, the Mossad "handed its American counterpart a list of names of terrorists who were staying in
the U.S. and were presumably planning to launch an attack in the foreseeable future". Fox News' Carl Cameron, in May 2002, also reported warnings by Israel: "Based on its own intelligence, the Israeli government provided 'general' information to the United States in the second week of August that an al-Qaeda attack was imminent". The U.S. government later claimed these warnings were not specific enough to allow any mitigating action to be taken. Mossad expert Gordon Thomas, author of Gideon's Spies, says German intelligence sources told him that as late as August 2001 Israeli spies in the United States had made surveillance contacts with "known supporters of bin Laden in the U.S.A. It was those surveillance contacts that later raised the question: how much prior knowledge did Mossad have and at what stage?"
According to Die Zeit, the Mossad did provide the U.S. government with the names of suspected terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, who would eventually hijack the Pentagon plane. It is worth noting that Mihdhar and Hazmi were among the hijackers who operated in close proximity to Israeli "art students" in Hollywood, Florida, and to the Urban Moving Systems Israelis in northern New Jersey. Moreover, Hazmi and at least three "art students" visited Oklahoma City on almost the same dates, from April 1 through April 4, 2001. On August 24, 2001, a day after the Mossad's briefing, Mihdhar and Hazmi were placed by the CIA on a terrorist watch list; additionally, it was only after the Mossad warning, as reported by Die Zeit, that the CIA, on August 27, informed the FBI of the presence of the two terrorists. But by then the cell was already in hiding, preparing for attack.
The CIA, along with the 9/11 Commission in its adoption of the CIA story, claims that Mihdhar and Hazmi were placed on the watch list solely due to the agency's own efforts, with no help from Mossad. Their explanation of how the pair came to be placed on the watch list, however, is far from credible and may have served as a cover story to obscure the Mossad briefing [See Ketcham's sidebar story -- "The Kuala Lumpur Deceit"]. This brings up the possibility that the CIA may have
known about the existence of the alleged Israeli agents and their mission, but sought, naturally, to keep it quiet. A second, more troubling scenario, is that the CIA may have subcontracted to Mossad, given that the agency was both prohibited by law from conducting intelligence operations on U.S. soil, and lacked a pool of competent Arabic-fluent field officers. In such a scenario, the CIA would either have worked actively with the Israelis or quietly abetted an independent operation on U.S. soil. In his 9/11 investigative book, The Looming Tower, author Lawrence Wright notes that FBI counterterrorism agents, infuriated at the CIA's failure to fully share information about Mihdhar and Hazmi, speculated that "the agency was shielding Mihdhar and Hazmi because it hoped to recruit them". The two al-Qaeda men, Wright notes, "must have seemed like attractive opportunities; however, once they entered the United States they were the province of the FBI..." Wright further observes that the CIA's reticence to share its information was due to a fear "that prosecutions resulting from specific intelligence might compromise its relationship with foreign services". When in the spring of 2002 the scenario of CIA's domestic subcontracting to foreign intelligence was posed to the veteran CIA/NSA intelligence operative, with whom I spoke extensively, the operative didn't reject it out of hand. The operative noted that in recent years the CIA's human intelligence assets, known as "humint" - spooks on the ground who conduct surveillances, make contacts, and infiltrate the enemy - had been "eviscerated" in favor of the NSA's far less perilous "sigint", or signals intelligence program, the remote interception of electronic communications. As a result, "U.S. intelligence finds itself going back to sources that you may not necessarily like to go back to, but are required to", the veteran intelligence operative said. "We don't like the fact, but our humint structures are gone. Israeli intel's humint is as strong as ever. If you have an intel gap, those gaps are not closed overnight. It takes years and years of diligent work, a high degree of security, talented and dedicated people, willing management and a steady hand. It is not a fun business, and it's certainly not one without its dangers. If you lose that capability, well organizations find themselves having to make a pact with the devil. The problem [in U.S. intel] is very great".
If such an understanding did exist between CIA and Mossad with regard to al-Qaeda's U.S. operatives, the complicity would explain a number of oddities: it would explain the CIA's nearly incoherent, and perhaps purposely deceptive, reconstruction of events as to how Mihdhar and Hazmi joined the watch list; it might even explain the apparent brazenness of the Israeli New Jersey cell celebrating on the morning of 9/11 (protected under the CIA wing, they were free to behave as they pleased). It would also explain the assertion in one of the leading Israeli dailies, Yedioth Ahronoth, that in the months prior to 9/11, when the Israeli "art students" were being identified and rounded up, the CIA "actively promoted their expulsion". The implication in the Yedioth Ahronoth article was that the CIA was simply being careless, not trying to spirit the Israelis safely out of the country. At this point we cannot be certain.
Israeli spying against the U.S. is of course hotly denied by both governments. In 2002, responding to my own questions about the "art students", Israeli embassy spokesman Mark Regev issued a blanket
denial. "Israel does not spy on the United States", Regev told me. The pronouncements from officialdom are strictly pro forma, as it is no secret that spying by Israel on the United States has been wide-ranging and unabashed. A 1996 General Accounting Office report, for example, found that Israel "conducts the most aggressive espionage operation against the United States of any U.S. ally". More recently, a former intelligence official told the Los Angeles Times in 2004 that "[t]here is a huge, aggressive, ongoing set of Israeli activities directed against the United States". It is also routine that Israeli spying is ignored or downplayed by the U.S. government (the case of convicted spy Jonathan Pollard, sentenced to life in prison in 1986, is a dramatic exception). According to the American Prospect, over the last 20 years at least six sealed indictments have been issued against individuals allegedly spying "on Israel's behalf", but the cases were resolved "through diplomatic and intelligence channels" rather than a public airing in the courts. Career Justice Department and intelligence officials who track Israeli espionage told the Prospect of "long-standing frustration among investigators and prosecutors who feel that cases that could have been made successfully against Israeli spies were never brought to trial, or that the investigations were shut down prematurely".
Mucho speculation in this article involving alleged "hijacker", but the point is made.
The Questions That Await Answers
Remarkably, the Urban Moving Systems Israelis, when interrogated by the FBI, explained their motives for "celebration" on the New Jersey waterfront a celebration that consisted of cheering, smiling, shooting film with still and video cameras and, according to the FBI, "high- fiving" - in the Machiavellian light of geopolitics. "Their explanation of why they were happy", FBI spokesman Margolin told me, "was that the United States would now have to commit itself to fighting [Middle East] terrorism, that Americans would have an understanding and empathy for Israel's circumstances, and that the attacks were ultimately a good thing for Israel". When reporters on the morning of 9/11 asked former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu about the effect the attacks would have on Israeli-American relations, he responded with a similar gut analysis: "It's very good", he remarked. Then he amended the statement: "Well, not very good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans]".
What is perhaps most damning is that the Israelis' celebration on the New Jersey waterfront occurred in the first sixteen minutes after the initial crash, when no one was aware this was a terrorist attack. In other words, from the time the first plane hit the north tower, at 8:46 a.m., to the time the second plane hit the south tower, at 9:02 a.m., the overwhelming assumption of news outlets and government officials was that the plane's impact was simply a terrible accident. [/q
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Scott N.
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:19 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Conclusion
Israel has obviously been a central player in the “war on terror” myth, that Mossad agents celebrated the attacks with gusto, that Israel has a long history of staging false flags for domestic and geopolitical reasons, that “plausible deniability” is a mainstay of covert ops, that Zionism is racist and untenable, that neocons and Likud are joined at the hip, and that Israel has benefited immensely from 911 (in myopic, short term goals). For instance, Naomi Klein:
“After the dotcom bubble burst in 2000, Israel's economy was devastated, facing its worst year since 1953. Then came 9/11, and suddenly new profit vistas opened up for any company that claimed it could spot terrorists in crowds, seal borders from attack, and extract confessions from closed-mouthed prisoners.
Before 9/11 homeland security barely existed as an industry. By the end of this year, Israeli exports in the sector will reach $1.2bn, an increase of 20%. The key products and services are hi-tech fences, unmanned drones, biometric IDs, video and audio surveillance gear, air passenger profiling and prisoner interrogation systems - precisely the tools and technologies Israel has used to lock in the occupied territories.
And that is why the chaos in Gaza and the rest of the region doesn't threaten the bottom line in Tel Aviv, and may actually boost it. Israel has learned to turn endless war into a brand asset, pitching its uprooting, occupation and containment of the Palestinian people as a half-century head start in the "global war on terror".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2104411,00.html
This may come as a great surprise to some, but elites in different countries frequently pursue policies which benefit specific factions of elite circles in A or B country, but which are overwhelmingly harmful to the interests of the majority of the population. Be they American, Israeli, Pakistani or otherwise.
I understand the PR argument, but I think the best way of combating racism and bigotry is to be completely honest and forthright. It’s not really much about race or nationality or religion, it’s about class: A transnational ruling class waging war against humanity.
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Rancho Truth
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:23 am Post subject: Reply with quote
"I have been asked to post evidence to support my assertion that elements of the Israeli government were, at the very least, aware of the impending attacks of 911, and may have played some role in their execution." - Scott N., OP
"... there is some pretty damning evidence suggesting that Mossad was aware of the impending attacks, and may have played some role in their actual execution." Scott N. http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38368#38368
In the OP and conclusion, no evidence is provided that Mossad- or elements of the state of Israel, Israelis, Zionists or Jews- played any role in the execution of the attacks, which was the assertion John A. asked Scott N. to support.
Some possible motives are identified, but as Scott N. has observed in the OP and many other places, many others had motives for wanting or manufacturing a 9/11. And as Scott N. noted in the OP and other places, Israel/Mossad did not have the means or opportunity- w/o a "green light" from US elements, in any case. And even if an entity does have means, motive and opportunity, that doesn't prove complicity- identifying these things can help identify or rule out certain suspects, or certain roles certain suspects may have played.
Some historical precedents are identified in the OP and conclusion; for instance, incidents involving Mossad/Israel state which have similarities to 9/11, i.e. false-flag attacks- but correlation doesn't prove causation- and the US MIC's history provides plenty of precedents as well, such as the Maine, Pearl Harbor, annexation of HI, Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, JFK, RFK, MLK, OKC, WTC '93, etc.
So that's about it; no actual evidence of Mossad involvement in the execution of the 9/11 attacks- or even evidence that "Mossad ... may have played some role in their actual execution."
This isn't to say that Mossad wasn't involved; it's just that no evidence was provided in the OP- and I'm unaware of any provided by anyone in the nearly 9 years since 9/11. Perhaps Mossad was- perhaps tons of hard evidence exists somewhere. The high-fiving Mossad agents is a red flag. The art student spy ring that was incredibly coincidentally close to the alleged hijackers in FL is another red flag. The failure of the 9/11 Commission to address these things in its final report is another red flag- as is the failure of the 9/11 Commission to ask any real questions of those who were in charge of US the US intel/defense/law enforcement establishment which failed repeatedly and incredibly leading up to and on 9/11, which obstructed investigations before and after 9/11- and which included some Jews in key positions- as well as many people from other races/religions. Why was this important to cover up; why were these people being protected?
A real investigation would have looked into these things, and addressed them in its final report. It may be that whoever did 9/11 was using the Mossad agents to monitor the 'Al Qaeda' patsies- we know the CIA was working hard to hide evidence of the plot from the FBI; perhaps the monitoring was outsourced to Mossad, as it would be treasonous and highly illegal for the CIA to be spying in the US.
But this is not evidence; these are just some of the many unanswered questions, that a real investigation would have addressed- and which a real investigation would address- and which the efforts to get have been frustrated by people making assertions w/o evidence which have been used to undermine the credibility of the 9/11 truth movement.
Personally, I don't believe that the people behind all/many of the 'Jews did 9/11'-type sites out there actually believe what they're saying. I don't know that they don't, but considering these claims have been used to discredit 9/11 inquiry similar to how space beams, holograms and 'AA 77 didn't hit' and other evidence-free assertions have been used to discredit 9/11, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that some or most of them are intentional disinfo- and perhaps they're even run by Mossad/Zionists/Jews.
I also haven't seen evidence of Scott N.'s claim that sincere researchers and activists are unwilling to "go there" re Israel and 9/11. If the evidence provided in the OP (none) is the best evidence that Mossad was involved in the execution of 9/11, there's nowhere to go with it. In this case, the only responsible thing to do is what activists like Jon Gold have done over and over, even as he's been repeatedly accused of being Zionist disinfo; simply point to the red flags and unanswered questions regarding Zionism/Mossad/Israel state- which are a small piece of the totality of evidence that 9/11's a lie- and call for a real investigation- instead of leaping to conclusions like the Jew-hating bigots and the disinfo agents, which constitute the vast majority of the people who "go there". Note that I said "vast majority"- personally, I doubt that Scott N. is a Jew-hating bigot or a disinfo agent, simply based on reading many of his posts.
Here's some more info on things that a real investigation would address, re a potential Israeli/Mossad role in 9/11:
Israel: Geopolitics and Islamic Militancy Timeline
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timelin...
Gerald Shea: MEMORANDUM TO THE NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORIST ATTACKS UPON THE UNITED STATES THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE THE HOUSE PERMANENT SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE - Israeli Surveillance of the Future Hijackers and FBI Suspects in the September 11 Attacks and Their Failure to Give Us Adequate Warning: The Need for a Public Inquiry
http://www.christopherketcham.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/Gerald%20Sh...
_________________
http://911reports.com/
http://www.historycommons.org
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Scott N.
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:54 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Rancho,
My initial allegation stands: that it is probable that Mossad played a role in 911. I have never suggested that Mossad "carried out" 911. Some people like to put words in my mouth that I never say.
Last edited by Scott N. on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Scott N.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
In the OP and conclusion, no evidence is provided that Mossad- or elements of the state of Israel, Israelis, Zionists or Jews- played any role in the execution of the attacks, which was the assertion John A. asked Scott N. to support.
Read what you like, my man.
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truthmover
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 1299
Location: Los Angeles
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Read what you like, my man.
Yeah, I'll read what I like too and agree with Rancho. Your argumentation isn't all that stellar. I like the intro, but when you get to actually trying to make your case you let a couple of articles speak for you, and they don't very well.
I really appreciate your intended respect for people on both sides of this debate. Good show.
But that doesn't mean I agree with your premise.
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JohnA
Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 811
PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
i'll have to read this tonight - to give it (and Scott) the respect it deserves.
i would like to say again that i apologize to Scott if i in any way implied that he is being racist. It is not my intention.
the word 'bias' is indeed loaded - so must be used with care. we all have a personal 'bias.' that is what makes us human. we all have 'feelings' regarding how and why 9/11 may have happened.
but - i also do think it is essential that a TRUTH movement hold itself accountable for the maintaining the highest standards possible for presenting facts as facts - and opinions as opinions - and the minute we allow our own personal biases to present opinions as FACT - we become the conspiracy theorists that our critics accuse us of being.
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Scott N.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Truthmove and John A.:
I do appreciate the fair take you've given, and I think it should be apparent at this point that I do not hold "jews" responsible for 911, any less "Muslims" or "Americans" or "Canadians": these are all false cat's given credence by disinfo types who desire to replace humanity with contrived tribalism . More importantly, these suppositions tar millions of people with one brush. Which is unacceptable.
I view world events through the prism of power. That's it. Call me a classicist if you must. I welcome the charge. If an event involves an Israeli or a Pakistani, so defined, it means little to me. The House of Saud is supposedly "Muslim", while Dick Cheney is supposedly "Christian" and represents "American interests".
Even if we’re just dealing with a LIHOP scenario (which, as opponents of the term repeatedly point out, still involves criminal complicity), I do not think it possible to understand the “war on terror”, including its covert elements, without understanding the Israel/Palestine conflict.
I am of the opinion that if the facts mentioned above involved any other country but Israel, they would not be considered so controversial and taboo. For example, the Ketcham article states:
"One "art student" was a former Israeli military intelligence officer named Hanan Serfaty, who rented two Hollywood apartments close to the mail drop and apartment of Mohammed Atta and four other hijackers. Serfaty was moving large amounts of cash: he carried bank slips showing more than $100,000 deposited from December 2000 through the first quarter of 2001; other bank slips showed withdrawals for about $80,000 during the same period. Serfaty's apartments, serving as crash pads for at least two other "art students", were located at 4220 Sheridan Street and 701 South 21st Avenue. Lead hijacker Mohammed Atta's mail drop was at 3389 Sheridan Street--approximately 2,700 feet from Serfaty's Sheridan Street apartment. Both Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, the suicide pilot on United Airlines Flight 175, which smashed into World Trade Center 2, lived in a rented apartment at 1818 Jackson Street, some 1,800 feet from Serfaty's South 21st Avenue apartment.
In fact, an improbable series of coincidences emerges from a close reading of the 2001 DEA memo, the 9/11 Commission's staff statements and final report, FBI and Justice Department watch lists, hijacker timelines compiled by major media and statements by local, state and federal law enforcement personnel. In at least six urban centers, suspected Israeli spies and 9/11 hijackers and/or al-Qaeda connected suspects lived and operated near one another, in some cases less than half a mile apart, for various periods during 2001 in the run-up to the attacks. In addition to northern New Jersey and Hollywood, Florida, these centers included Arlington and Fredericksburg, Virginia; Atlanta; Oklahoma City; Los Angeles; and San Diego.”
This seems far more damning to me than some wire transfer story from an Indian newspaper confirmed by an FBI agent, yet one is considered acceptable, the other taboo. Do you see where I''m coming from?
I've been accused of bias – and only a fool would pretend complete objectivity -- yet I do not feel I am “singling out” Israel. Quite the contrary, I’m merely placing Israel in her proper position as a powerful member of the axis of Evil, of which my country (Canada) is a junior partner, and yours top dog.
I think I’ve made my position clear, and see no reason to continue this debate (?) I do think the Truthmovers have behaved well throughout this "debate", especially insofar as drawing attention to the fact that the environmental catastrophes facing us represent a real threat to the human race. Au revoir, talk to you soon. Hopefully when I return our conversations will become more amiable, since I should be posting my film around that time (finally!) – and it doesn’t discuss Israel or Zionism. Cheers. and good luck.
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Rancho Truth
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 306
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: Reply with quote
"... there is some pretty damning evidence suggesting that Mossad was aware of the impending attacks, and may have played some role in their actual execution." Scott N. http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38368#38368
"My initial allegation stands: that it is probable that Mossad played a role in 911. I have never suggested that Mossad "carried out" 911. Some people like to put words in my mouth that I never say."
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38473#38473
There's a couple issues here. 1) Scott's choice of words in framing his allegation. 2) the evidence provided to support it.
1) Semantics and word parsing is sometimes a way of wasting time and distracting from more important issues- for instance, Clinton justifying his dissembling about Lewinsky by raising questions about the relativity of the meaning of 'is', and the differing accounts over what Ashcroft actually said in response to Pickard briefing him on terrorist chatter, vs. everything else he did and didn't do prior to 9/11 in the face of the impending alleged 9/11 plot. However, for this reason, it's useful to address this in this post.
Scott, I quoted your words exactly. You seem to be questioning my interpretation of them. I interpreted your initial allegation to mean you believed there is damning evidence public that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]." I never said you "suggested that Mossad 'carried out' 911" However, "damning evidence" that something "may have" happened? This is an unusual choice of phrasing, imho.
2) In my comment re: the evidence, I focused on and critiqued what you had provided re: motives and historical precedent, noting, correctly I believe, that this is not evidence of a Mossad role in the "actual execution"- the allegation John A. challenged you to support.
I also briefly noted some of the evidence of foreknowledge, which you didn't spend much time analyzing yourself; you copy/pasted the Ketcham article. Ketcham did not draw the conclusion that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]." He presented evidence and concluded that Israel spies on the U.S. and was aware of the impending 9/11 plot.
In your comment above, you quoted Ketcham, and said:
Scott N. wrote:
I am of the opinion that if the facts mentioned above involved any other country but Israel, they would not be considered so controversial and taboo. For example, the Ketcham article states:
"One "art student" was a former Israeli military intelligence officer named Hanan Serfaty, who rented two Hollywood apartments close to the mail drop and apartment of Mohammed Atta and four other hijackers. Serfaty was moving large amounts of cash: he carried bank slips showing more than $100,000 deposited from December 2000 through the first quarter of 2001; other bank slips showed withdrawals for about $80,000 during the same period. Serfaty's apartments, serving as crash pads for at least two other "art students", were located at 4220 Sheridan Street and 701 South 21st Avenue. Lead hijacker Mohammed Atta's mail drop was at 3389 Sheridan Street--approximately 2,700 feet from Serfaty's Sheridan Street apartment. Both Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, the suicide pilot on United Airlines Flight 175, which smashed into World Trade Center 2, lived in a rented apartment at 1818 Jackson Street, some 1,800 feet from Serfaty's South 21st Avenue apartment.
In fact, an improbable series of coincidences emerges from a close reading of the 2001 DEA memo, the 9/11 Commission's staff statements and final report, FBI and Justice Department watch lists, hijacker timelines compiled by major media and statements by local, state and federal law enforcement personnel. In at least six urban centers, suspected Israeli spies and 9/11 hijackers and/or al-Qaeda connected suspects lived and operated near one another, in some cases less than half a mile apart, for various periods during 2001 in the run-up to the attacks. In addition to northern New Jersey and Hollywood, Florida, these centers included Arlington and Fredericksburg, Virginia; Atlanta; Oklahoma City; Los Angeles; and San Diego.”
Do you consider this "damning evidence" that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]."? It's good that you qualify your allegation by incorporating "may have" into it, because this is only evidence of foreknowledge. There are many examples of Israeli/Mossad 9/11 foreknowledge and suspicious behavior, all documented at the Timeline link I included above; warnings given to the US govt by Israel/Mossad on at least 3 occasions; Zim planning on moving out of the WTC 6 mo. before 9/11, mostly completing it a week before, w/ some final details being done on 9/11, with the employees escaping; the high-fivers; the owner of Urban Moving Systems fleeing to Israel; the art student spy ring; Odigo; etc. Again, this is all evidence of foreknowledge, not evidence that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]."
As I noted in my initial comment, a real investigation would have dug into this stuff, and gone wherever the facts lead. A real investigation would determine whatever role Mossad did or did not play in the "actual execution" of the 9/11 attacks. On the face of it, though, why do you believe that Israeli surveillance of those named by the US govt as the hijackers indicate Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]."? If they're surveilling them, does that mean they control them? What are you suggesting?
Scott N. wrote:
This seems far more damning to me than some wire transfer story from an Indian newspaper confirmed by an FBI agent, yet one is considered acceptable, the other taboo. Do you see where I''m coming from?
No, I don't; because I don't consider highlighting the evidence linking Israel to 9/11 to be taboo; what I consider taboo is what discredits the 9/11 truth movement; going beyond and mischaracterizing the evidence, such as claiming it only points in one direction and excluding all other possibilities, leaping to conclusions w/o a full investigation. Highlighting evidence and raising the unanswered questions is responsible inquiry and activism, and it's damning to the OCT.
Likewise, reports in Indian press citing unnamed FBI sources linking the ISI's Mahmoud Ahmed to Saeed Sheikh's $100K transfer to Atta (which the WSJ- and Pakistani media- considered credible enough to report) aren't proof of anything by themselves, but it's suspicious, and an honest media and US govt would investigate. http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a100701mahmoodreplaced#a1...
There's also the question of the role played in UA 175 airport security by Huntleigh, a subsidiary of Israeli company ICTS; you didn't mention this in your summary. A common piece of 'misinfo' circulated by those who seek to blame the Jews for 9/11 (not accusing you) is that ICTS controlled ALL airport security, but this claim isn't backed up; Argenbright and Globe Security handled the rest, afaik- correct me if I'm wrong.
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Scott N.
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Albert Einstein?
Hated Zionism.
Don't blame me. Blame the world.
Cheers Rancho.
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Scott N.
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:20 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Rancho? Einstein?
If you wanna talk to me? on the basis of what I talked about? Talk or shut up.
You keep trying to hate on me. Well, if you have the balls, talk to me. Otherwise, there's the door. Kid.
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Scott N.
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:32 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Rancho Truth wrote:
"... there is some pretty damning evidence suggesting that Mossad was aware of the impending attacks, and may have played some role in their actual execution." Scott N. http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38368#38368
"My initial allegation stands: that it is probable that Mossad played a role in 911. I have never suggested that Mossad "carried out" 911. Some people like to put words in my mouth that I never say."
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38473#38473
There's a couple issues here. 1) Scott's choice of words in framing his allegation. 2) the evidence provided to support it.
1) Semantics and word parsing is sometimes a way of wasting time and distracting from more important issues- for instance, Clinton justifying his dissembling about Lewinsky by raising questions about the relativity of the meaning of 'is', and the differing accounts over what Ashcroft actually said in response to Pickard briefing him on terrorist chatter, vs. everything else he did and didn't do prior to 9/11 in the face of the impending alleged 9/11 plot. However, for this reason, it's useful to address this in this post.
Scott, I quoted your words exactly. You seem to be questioning my interpretation of them. I interpreted your initial allegation to mean you believed there is damning evidence public that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]." I never said you "suggested that Mossad 'carried out' 911" However, "damning evidence" that something "may have" happened? This is an unusual choice of phrasing, imho.
2) In my comment re: the evidence, I focused on and critiqued what you had provided re: motives and historical precedent, noting, correctly I believe, that this is not evidence of a Mossad role in the "actual execution"- the allegation John A. challenged you to support.
I also briefly noted some of the evidence of foreknowledge, which you didn't spend much time analyzing yourself; you copy/pasted the Ketcham article. Ketcham did not draw the conclusion that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]." He presented evidence and concluded that Israel spies on the U.S. and was aware of the impending 9/11 plot.
In your comment above, you quoted Ketcham, and said:
Scott N. wrote:
I am of the opinion that if the facts mentioned above involved any other country but Israel, they would not be considered so controversial and taboo. For example, the Ketcham article states:
"One "art student" was a former Israeli military intelligence officer named Hanan Serfaty, who rented two Hollywood apartments close to the mail drop and apartment of Mohammed Atta and four other hijackers. Serfaty was moving large amounts of cash: he carried bank slips showing more than $100,000 deposited from December 2000 through the first quarter of 2001; other bank slips showed withdrawals for about $80,000 during the same period. Serfaty's apartments, serving as crash pads for at least two other "art students", were located at 4220 Sheridan Street and 701 South 21st Avenue. Lead hijacker Mohammed Atta's mail drop was at 3389 Sheridan Street--approximately 2,700 feet from Serfaty's Sheridan Street apartment. Both Atta and Marwan al-Shehhi, the suicide pilot on United Airlines Flight 175, which smashed into World Trade Center 2, lived in a rented apartment at 1818 Jackson Street, some 1,800 feet from Serfaty's South 21st Avenue apartment.
In fact, an improbable series of coincidences emerges from a close reading of the 2001 DEA memo, the 9/11 Commission's staff statements and final report, FBI and Justice Department watch lists, hijacker timelines compiled by major media and statements by local, state and federal law enforcement personnel. In at least six urban centers, suspected Israeli spies and 9/11 hijackers and/or al-Qaeda connected suspects lived and operated near one another, in some cases less than half a mile apart, for various periods during 2001 in the run-up to the attacks. In addition to northern New Jersey and Hollywood, Florida, these centers included Arlington and Fredericksburg, Virginia; Atlanta; Oklahoma City; Los Angeles; and San Diego.”
Do you consider this "damning evidence" that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]."? It's good that you qualify your allegation by incorporating "may have" into it, because this is only evidence of foreknowledge. There are many examples of Israeli/Mossad 9/11 foreknowledge and suspicious behavior, all documented at the Timeline link I included above; warnings given to the US govt by Israel/Mossad on at least 3 occasions; Zim planning on moving out of the WTC 6 mo. before 9/11, mostly completing it a week before, w/ some final details being done on 9/11, with the employees escaping; the high-fivers; the owner of Urban Moving Systems fleeing to Israel; the art student spy ring; Odigo; etc. Again, this is all evidence of foreknowledge, not evidence that Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]."
As I noted in my initial comment, a real investigation would have dug into this stuff, and gone wherever the facts lead. A real investigation would determine whatever role Mossad did or did not play in the "actual execution" of the 9/11 attacks. On the face of it, though, why do you believe that Israeli surveillance of those named by the US govt as the hijackers indicate Mossad "may have played some role in [the] actual execution [of the 9/11 attacks]."? If they're surveilling them, does that mean they control them? What are you suggesting?
Scott N. wrote:
This seems far more damning to me than some wire transfer story from an Indian newspaper confirmed by an FBI agent, yet one is considered acceptable, the other taboo. Do you see where I''m coming from?
No, I don't; because I don't consider highlighting the evidence linking Israel to 9/11 to be taboo; what I consider taboo is what discredits the 9/11 truth movement; going beyond and mischaracterizing the evidence, such as claiming it only points in one direction and excluding all other possibilities, leaping to conclusions w/o a full investigation. Highlighting evidence and raising the unanswered questions is responsible inquiry and activism, and it's damning to the OCT.
Likewise, reports in Indian press citing unnamed FBI sources linking the ISI's Mahmoud Ahmed to Saeed Sheikh's $100K transfer to Atta (which the WSJ- and Pakistani media- considered credible enough to report) aren't proof of anything by themselves, but it's suspicious, and an honest media and US govt would investigate. http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a100701mahmoodreplaced#a1...
There's also the question of the role played in UA 175 airport security by Huntleigh, a subsidiary of Israeli company ICTS; you didn't mention this in your summary. A common piece of 'misinfo' circulated by those who seek to blame the Jews for 9/11 (not accusing you) is that ICTS controlled ALL airport security, but this claim isn't backed up; Argenbright and Globe Security handled the rest, afaik- correct me if I'm wrong.
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sorry bro, I completely ignored your take, not because I considered it futile, but because I considered it irrelevant.
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Scott N.
Joined: 13 Mar 2010
Posts: 109
PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: Reply with quote
sorry man
To the extent that there is
To the extent that there is some kind of point in Loose Nuke's comments, it seems to be over the issue of the word "Mossad" as a short-hand for "supporters of Israel." Dick Cheney has been long been on the advisory board for the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs. So does that him a "Mossad" agent? Not necessarily, but it might be close enough.
missing from this entire dialogue of course...
...is any mention of Larry Silverstein. We're talking about the individual person for whom 9/11 was most profitable by far--who had complete control over the scene of the crime, and who has had close relationships with Ariel Sharon and Benjamin Netanyahu, and this person does not get a mention in an essay purporting to be about the case for Zionist malfeasance vis a vis 9/11? Sniff, sniff... Eau de rat, anyone?
Yep, strange
Just about everyone, whether they are 9/11 truthers or not, knows that the most important location of that horrible event was the WTC, where 90% of the deaths occured on that day.
For anyone with like 2 brain cells firing who is at all conversant with the evidence around the most important crime scene of 9/11 - the WTC complex - it would seem all too obvious that the shortest path to 9/11 truth would be through the primary crime scene, and therefore, through those who had the most control over that site, including Larry Silverstein.
Yet our most prominent fake - Jon Gold - continues to repeat ad nauseam that "the shortest path to 9/11 truth is through the White House". Not only that, but he continues to assert that there is little reason at all to put any focus whatsoever on Larry Silverstein. And he wonders why so few people take him seriously anymore...
Well Scott N. really went
Well Scott N. really went off on a tirade like he was drunk at the keyboard. YT even accused him of that:
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38563&highlight=#38563
Albanese accuses Scott N. of lying about Israel/Zionism...
and suggests that he should move to the WTCD forum where he will be welcomed.
http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=38520#38520
How typical of John Albaloney to accuse his detractors of lying and having dishonest motives and not being a legitimate member of the "truth" movement. Gee, when have we seen this before? Um, only like EVERY SINGLE TIME anybody ever challenges these frauds' anti-cd or LIHOP BS.
Oh, and then Albanese praises Eric Larson for countering Scott's irrational anti-Zionist sentiment and for being one of the few people in the movement left with a rational mind, LOL!
Undoubtedly, John is now demanding that Cosmos ban Scott from TrueFaction.
How utterly predictable these shills are. You'd think they'd want to change up their script at least once in a while, but nope, I guess not...
approved!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cariculum
everyone else it was proof of what a cariculum John was.
butthead
intrical
dumbass
jackass
by boywonderbread
Jun 15, 2010
"Wired for Terror: On the Trail of the Men Who Brought Down...
The Towers"
I thought I would re-post a link to this seminal work by 'Lazlo Toth' that was published here August 20, 2007 for our new readers who might not have read it. I still think this is one of the most complete works regarding Israel/Zionist involvement in 9/11.
Wired for Terror: On the Trail of the Men Who Brought Down the Towers
Part Three?
From the Balfour Declaration to Statehood: 32 Years of Terror and Deception
was this ever published/posted anywhere? I know parts Two A and B are here somewhere.