The New Pentagon Debate: Lying Eyewitnesses vs. Sketchy CIT

Here is a blog entry by Loose Nuke which attempts to "prove" the veracity of the official claim that AA77 hit the Pentagon by on the one hand holding up a pair of alleged eyewitnesses whom he assures us he found credible and comparing their account to the behavior of the bizarre "Citizen Investigation Team" duo Craig Ranke and Aldo Marquis. It seems that being unable to come up with any HARD evidence, of the kind that should exist in abundance, Loose Nuke aka Erik Larson and his cheering section (so far) in comments, Jon Gold and "YT", attempt to frame the debate in a way that they think allows them to overlook absence of hard evidence. What more do we need to know in order to come to the conclusion that, if this is the best supporters of the OCT can come up with, AA77 probably did not fly into the Pentagon?
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Also
this is an excellent opportunity to point out to LeftWright how 911blogger is skewed in the way it deals with the Pentagon issue. There is a definite anti CIT bias there, which started when Reprehensor decided to ban them, and also made the decision that Pentagon stuff would be on the blogs section, not the front page, since the front page should be reserved for stories we are all "united" on.
However, the bias not just against CIT but in favor of AA77 hitting the Pentagon can be found by examining some stories which receive back page versus front page coverage. Notably, when the National Security Alert came out last year and was endorsed by many movement heavyweights:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20738
that story only made the back page. By contrast, two decidedly anti-CIT entries, specifically this interview between Michael Wolsey and Jim Hoffman (both of whom are rabidly anti CIT):
http://www.911blogger.com/node/20833
THAT one made the front page. Another such instance was when Richard Gage issued his "clarification" of his endorsement.
http://www.911blogger.com/node/22029
That one also made the front page. If you read the comments on that last one there, you'll find a comment by Dave Nehring who was previously unaware of the CIT controversy and had never seen National Security Alert, because he only checks the front page.
By contrast, the blog entry where Adam Syed posted his video of Pentagon discussion on the Cincinnati Public Access show:
www.911blogger.com/node/21720
That was on the front page for just a little while, until the first commenter said "Poor choice for front page material - speculative and divisive - thumbs down." Within a short half hour the moderation team caved in and took it off the front page.
Blogger is definitely compromised on the Pentagon issue.
A moderator, Erik Larsen (loose nuke), just posted a blog entry highly critical of CIT (actually 'attack piece' is more like it) yet Craig and Aldo are banned from blogger and can't defend themselves.
Blogger is a prime example of what Gretavo mentioned on his podcast: A number of regular 911blogger users seem to feel that various aspects of the OCT (namely the claim that AA77 hit the Pentagon) should be assumed true by default, whereas the more correct mentality would be to assume all aspects of the OCT false until proven true.
Signed,
Adam Syed? :)
Oh no, I'm just annoymouse.
Oh no, I'm just annoymouse. I could never hold a candle to that Adam Syed dude! ;)
Also the first word of my
Also the first word of my last paragraph was supposed to be "Larsen" not "Blogger."
Jon Gold and Michael (Wolsey?) Accuse David Griffin of Disinfo
Big Tenters and Sock Puppets
"Griffin is known widely in the 9/11 Truth movement for his 8 + books dedicated specifically to numerous questions, inaccuracies, omissions, and distortions surrounding the September 11th, 2001 attacks as they have been wrongly preserved in history by the 9/11 Commission Report and the following N.I.S.T. Reports."
Griffin is also well known for his Big Tent approach which has been rejected by many serious 9-11 researchers. Griffin insists that there was no Boeing crash at the Pentagon, has endorsed CIT, whom I consider to be the worst of the available 9-11 disinformation, speaks highly of perceived suspicious characters Rob Balsamo and Morgan Reynolds, and has maintained his relationship with the now discredited Jim Fetzer and his "scholars" group. These are the kind of things that Cheri Roberts wants us to ignore and these are the kind of people that Cheri Roberts wants us to "come together" with under the big tent. I don't know about the rest of you but you can count me out.
Griffin has failed to respond to evidence which contradicts the absolute statements which he made on the National Geographic hit piece where he said unequivocally that AA77 did not hit the Pentagon. Jim Hoffman had tried to get Griffin to look at ALL the evidence including http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html, to no avail. Griffin simply failed to respond as if he is above criticism. He also spends an inordinate amount of time during his lectures "proving" that cell phone fakery was used on 9-11. Despite his early contributions to the movement, Griffin does not get a free pass with the information as if he is above reproach. It's really too bad because Griffin's deteriorating credibility may catch up with him one day as many in the movement are beginning to reject his hodgepodge of good and bad info. I can't say much about it yet, but let's just say that Colorado, one of the most prolific and active 9-11 groups in the country, is fixin to send a strong message to the good Dr. "Clean it up or you will not be welcome here.... " Credibility is everything in this movement, credibility to the general public, and credibility within the movement itself.
Which brings me to, IMO, the least credible person on this website who posted this story. I do not see it as any coincidence that a pusher of disinformation and admitted sock puppet like Adam Syed is first to jump on board the big tent band wagon. People who wish to discredit our movement want us all under the same big tent so that they can criticize us as a group that will believe anything put in front of them. They want us arguing endlessly over minutia, wasting time, bickering back and forth, and generally putting forth the worst information about 9-11 as if it's fact or "proven". All this gives the media attack dogs fodder with which to use to discredit us.
A good example is used above from the NG hit piece where Griffin makes his absolute statement that AA77 did not hit the Pentagon and then you see NG have a heyday with this unproven and debunked bit of misinformation.
This is how the game is played. Over the past several months I have grown to seriously question the motifs of Adam Syed. At times, he has turned this website into a circus of disinformation and done all of the disruptive things mentioned above. His relentless and often dishonest pimping of CIT has become increasingly more and more suspicious to me and many others. More recently, Mr. Syed was caught praising himself as a sock puppet, a deceptive and dishonest practice which is heavily frowned upon in the cyber world. I am shocked that the management at this website has chosen to allow this dishonest disruptor on the site at all. It's a huge disappointment and blow to the credibility of this website and it's owners, like it or not guys. So it should come as no surprise that Mr. Syed is now pimping the big tenter Cheri Roberts and DRG. Don't be fooled. There is a reason some people want the big tent in effect and it has nothing to do with sitting around the fire singing Kumbaya.
Finally, some, including Mr. Syed are sure to cry to the management at this site about my posting today. It should be known that these are my opinions intermingled with facts about the topic at hand. I have a right to state my opinion here and also to state some pertinent facts. Many have trumpeted the use of the term "disinformation" is an attack. I, however, beg to differ. Merriam-Webster define disinformation as:
dis·in·for·ma·tion
Pronunciation: \(?)dis-?in-f?r-?m?-sh?n\
Function: noun
Date: 1939
false information deliberately and often covertly spread (as by the planting of rumors) in order to influence public opinion or obscure the truth
It cannot be argued that Adam Syed is deliberately spreading false information "in order to influence public opinion". It is arguable if these intentions are meant to obscure the truth. My opinion is that this is part of Syed's intentions, however, this I cannot prove and do not state it as fact, but my opinion which I am entitled to. Adam and CIT repeatedly assert that the ludicrous "fly over" theory is proven fact and they want to shove it down our throats.This is false information which is being deliberately and aggressively spread, which fits the definition of disinformation. I think the use of the term in the context that I have used it is appropriate.
I hadn't seen that clip before...
I didn't watch the special because those specials always infuriate me. Now that I've seen that clip, I'm glad I didn't watch it. Dr. Griffin, that is completely and totally irresponsible of you to say, and I wish you would stop making statements like that.
Everyone please this.
And also give this a watch...
Do these people deserve to know how and why their loved ones were murdered? The facts speak for themselves.
amazing
Is Jon Gold calling out one of the most respected 911 Truth advocates just 2 months before he'll be hosting the Treason In America event in March?
911Blogger.com is giving Gold a platform to create divisiveness around practically meaningless issues and then claim allows him to claim the high ground in a mythical 'divide' within the truth movement.
And what's with this big blitz of podcasts and shit claiming there is a 'big divide in the truth movement'? Really?
The way I see it...most 911 Truth advocates merely spread information they trust to people they know. They find that information online. They rarely get caught up in online 911 bullshit arguments. Sorry folks, people have lives. They don't have time to be apart of some grand schism of thought that divides the 911 Truth movement.
Besides, shouldn't Gold and others be scrutinizing someone like Sander Hicks and... his The Graham Report? They are doing the Treason In America event together in March right? I guess some theories are more equal then others and get no scrutiny.
I think Betsy Mitz needs to step up to the plate. Get Jon Gold off the stage in March. He's obviously not helping ANYTHING by doing talks about unity and divisiveness and then calling out DRG...all just months before the event.
This is not the work of a unifier.
jpass FTW
"Most 911 Truth advocates merely spread information they trust to people they know."
I'd strike the "merely" from that sentence and suggest that it is the possibly the best model we have for a 9/11 truth movement in 2010. Forget the big conferences with videos, rappers, and a slew of speakers, some large proportion of which are undoubtedly fake.
The exception I would make is for focused public presentations like Richard Gage's.
hear hear
Those big conferences seem to geared toward giving a platform for utter charlatans like Sander Hicks to share the stage with credible researchers like Richard Gage as a way of boosting their own standing. For others it would seem to be a sort of "resumé building" intended to provide the illusion that they are important movement leaders.
problems with the above
First let me say that the comments above were posted in response to a post by "the truther sometimes known as Adam Syed" of a DRG interview with Cheri Roberts that can be found here: http://paulsdomain.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=573816
Already we have a problem--"Michael" predictably frames his objections to DRG by lumping him in with Adam Syed, whose "motifs" he questions. He then goes on to embed a video of some NatGeo hit piece where "evidence" is presented purporting to show that skepticism of the claim that AA77 hit the Pentagon is unwarranted--wacky, even. Problem is, not only does nothing in the video even purport to prove that the plane that allegedly hit the Pentagon was AA77, the "experiment" that they stage to show that the damage to the building fits what would be expected from a plane impact is beyond absurd. They use a hollow metal cylinder as a projectile, saying outright that it is an accurate model because the wings were fragile and insignificant. Of course they throw out both massive 6 ton titanium and steel angines along with the wings, and this is apparently just fine with "Michael", who seems toi think this kind of shoddy hit piece hurts the movement, as opposed to being so sloppy and dishonest that it serves to support the validity of our questions. Then of course, not to be left out of any defense of the official arab muslim hijacker narrative, Jon Gold steps in to scold Prof. Griffin, a man at least 100 times more intelligent and honest than he. What a pathetic joke these people are.
BTW, Cheri Roberts
is pumping up her own cred at the TruthAction forum by pointing to her interview with Richard Gage in which she forces him to come clean about the fact that he is being paid a salary to represent Architects and Engineers on a full-time basis. Most supporters would be shocked -- shocked I tell you -- to learn they were subsidizing a professional to be the public face of what is probably the most credible 9/11 truth organization.
LeftWright, if you're reading...
This is a classic example of the double standard at blogger, and I've e-mailed the team asking for the personal attacks against me to be deleted.
Just imagine if I had opened up a thread and accused Jon Gold of spreading deliberate disinformation by promoting the "real" plane crash into the Pentagon, or the "real" hijackers who hijacked the planes.
My guess is that someone on the team would have put me on mod queue instantly.
Signed,
The Truther Sometimes Known as Adam Syed
In case you haven't noticed
That comment was unpublished while the situation is being reviewed by the moderators.
I've noticed...
Thanks LeftWright.
(Of course my "annoymouse" comments over here are moderated and it takes awhile for them to go up. I submitted my above comment early in the afternoon yesterday.)
Leftwright, I think you really are trying to do the right thing and it must indeed by very difficult when you have to deal with complaints and requests from all types of truthers. When people ranging from Gold all the way to the users of this site all have their complaints about how blogger is compromised this way or that, I realize you must have a very full plate with not just your activism but the balance between activism and the rest of your life.
I trust you will soak in what myself and some others here are saying and keep it all in mind.
:-)
fyi
Adam, I unblocked your "Insane Hussein" account (yes, we knew it was you all along!) and renamed it Adam Syed. I would urge you to PLEASE not just for the sake of your personal credibility but for that of the positions you espouse to drop the sockpuppet shtick. Your arguments are thoughtful and intelligent without them, all the sockpuppetry does is muddy the waters and make people distrust you.
Thanks
...though I thought sockpuppetry was defined as multiple accounts on the same site. I was only NOT Adam Syed here because of the Cold War between the sites but now there's no need to hide! (Over at Pilots and Loose Change I've always used my real name.)
I guess I just wasn't prepared for the cyber-sleuthers that inhabit the truthaction forum. I think there are people out there who keep dossiers on us.
If it weren't for my 'outing,' LeftWright wouldn't be here extending an olive branch and trying to come to some understanding.
the definition
may vary, but I think it's common sense that referring to yourself on another site in the third person is unacceptable. shame on me for not calling you on it, I'll reiterate that your contributions to forums tend to be quite good and so you only hurt your cred and that of the positions you endorse when you do it.
speaking of the T&A cyber sleuths
I went ahead and changed your annoymouse avatar to something more appropriate (Chameleon from Marvel comics). I mean it in fun, of course you can change it, and I would if I were you because this one is likely to make COl. Jenny Sparks get the hots for you... :)
is this even true?
"speaks highly of perceived suspicious characters Rob Balsamo and Morgan Reynolds"
When has DRG ever spoken highly of Morgan Reynolds? Might "Michael" be confusing him with Rowland Morgan?