DRG confronted

on Kevin Barrett's new internet show - Fair and Balanced - www.noliesradio.org - regarding Israeli involvement in 911: No. (well, not any evidence)
"that would mean the mossad, well, we have so many secret service agencies right here in our own country that we would not need the mossad...foreknowledge? yes. Blair had foreknowledge but does that mean Britain did 911?"
on the issue of Israel and Gaza:Â Yes.
i believe the show is archived.
thanks, Kevin.
- kate of the kiosk's blog
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Ay ay ay.
Well okay, DRG has put his cards on the table. Maybe this explains... something... Perhaps he just can't see beyond a picture of American means, motive, and opportunity. Maybe he doesn't want to.
ehhh, he leaves it pretty open...
I mean we can't say we have any evidence of their operational complicity - we have lots of circumstancial evidence and grounds for suspicion. I think he's being cautious. Of course the best part of that interview is when Kevin reads a question from Jon Gold about using divisive terms like LIHOP/MIHOP and Griffin laughs it off saying LIHOP isn't taken seriously by anyone who's conversant in the issues involved.
He's getting to the part now about decades of Israeli wrongdoing--perfect. I think as a figurehead for the movement he is taking the right approach. Our job is to be in the vanguard paving the paths that people will be able to take when Griffin's efforts pay off and mass acceptance of the basics comes about.
mulling it over, i would have to agree
- how could he have gone any other way? ...he and say..Kevin Ryan.. and Steven Jones? what are they going to come out and say right now (and I'm sure they have discussed this position) ...they are pushing for more scientific support, and perhaps Jewish support??? they have to appeal to the scientific and legal mind...and at all costs.Â
but why, why, why has it been okay to not even hesitate to blame Muslims and Arab nations...i am getting very impatient.
oh shit, i probably should
oh shit, i probably should have read this before emailing him this morning. I came across DRG's email yesterday and decided to ask him a few questions. I asked him why hes failed to mention Zakheim and Suter in his writings. I literally just sent the email 5 minutes ago so im still waiting on a response.
i just had an interesting
i just had an interesting email exchange with DRG. i sort of backed him into a corner about why he never mentions Zakheim or Suter and he told me I had-"crossed a line", I believe in response to me saying people might wonder why he refuses to "go there". i was extremely respectful and find his responses to be strange, to say the least. cant trust fucking anybody.
crossing the line
so he accused you of crossing the line... with him or with the issue i wonder? he's being cautious. I just lost as friends and converts to the truth 2 very potentially influential Jewish friends by not being cautious and jumping the gun...regretfully. he stresses the physical evidence and science more than casting blame without proof...perhaps. but it is strange, and i will take what he says wtih a grain from now on. thank you, Chris!
im not exactly sure how I
im not exactly sure how I "crossed the line" but those were the exact words he used. I mentioned something about how no high profile 9/11 activists/researchers like himself mention any of the evidence implicating Israeli interests and that this disturbs me and thats how he responded. kind of disheartening.
well, to play devil's advocate
maybe he took issue with what he perceived to be an insinuation that he was somehow assisting in a cover up? I really don't see it that way--I think he's just being extremely careful. i'm sure he like us realizes that if we get a real 9/11 truth discourse going in the mainstream, i.e. one that is not some LIHOP variant, that the whole thing will probably unravel, so why take chances "going there"?
its possible, but I took
its possible, but I took pains to point out that I personally dont think that he is any kind of "agent" or that just because somebody doesnt mention the Israeli evidence they are protecting ISraels role in the attacks. interestingly enough, he admitted that he thinks Zakheim likely played a major role in the attacks, but that he refuses to metnion him(and UBS) because (im paraphrasing)-"unlike with Bush,Cheney and RUmmy etc., there are no lies in the 9/11 Commission Report to catch him in". arguing in essence that because the 9/11 Commission Report doesnt mention Dov and/or Urban Moving Systems he doesnt either. that line blew me away, especially coming from the man who wrote 9/11 Commission Report:OMMISSIONS and Distortions. it was a very dissapointing exchange. and i would disagree about the whole thing unraveling if some form of MIHOP makes it mainstream. maybe thats how Griffin sees it but all i see is needless self-censorship or worse.
Hey Chris... good to see ya
This is tangentially related to your exchange with DRG, but I have been totally underwhelmed by the response to the revelation that Ziad Jarrah's uncle is a Mossad spy. I mean, maybe people don't know what to make of that, exactly, but I suspect some people are quite flummoxed to see the Mossad-"hijacker" link made so clear. (I'm not pointing a finger at DRG here, btw.) Meanwhile, folks who were going on shrill, drunken rampages of verbal abuse over here last year are suddenly pimping the anti-Zionist angle like never before...
The Gaza invasion has resulted in a sea change, I think.
here's that Ziad Jarrah prep vid again
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/27858161#27858161
good to be here(though i
good to be here(though i dont always sign in, i lurk here pretty much daily). and its funny you mention that, as I sent DRG an article on the Mossad-Jarrah connections, along with sending him Lazlos piece on who wired the towers. i agree that the latest war crimes in Gaza by Israel has opened some eyes, but im afraid as long as so called leaders of 9/11 activism like DRG self censor themselves(you have to admit it was a lame excuse-not mentioning Dov/Suter etc. because the 9/11 Commission Report doesnt? DRG seems better than that....)its not going to make much of a difference. it way past time we start naming names in my opinion. and not just Cheney,Myers and Rummy. im not ready to "dump" DRG as a source or whatever, but my opinion of him has changed a bit after our exchange. cant trust anybody. as far as 911bogger style activists jumping on the anti-zionist train, i think thats just a reflection of the progress that people like yourself, gretavo and others that dont fear truth(the whole truth) have made. the facts are on our side and to continue to deny them would only serve to discredit them. they know this.
hey chris
I agree that DRG is not perfect, but honestly? I think he's the best we have in terms of "mainstream appeal". There is no question but that DRG treads lightly around the issue of Israel. Does this mean we shouldn't trust him? Well, maybe instead of *distrusting* him as a result we should bear in mind that neither he nor anyone else (I include myself) is going to have all the right views, and that it is that much more important for us not to shy from "going there" in a responsible way so that people understand that anti-Zionism is not about blaming or hating Jews per se.
What I gather about DRG is that he is conservative to the core--I think his activism on this issue is fuelled by that conservatism because he recognizes that those who carried out the 9/11 fraud are radicals. Another point, and this I may be wrong about, is that I think the person who introduced him to 9/11 skepticism might have been Richard Falk, who seems to dismiss Israeli involvement altogether, despite being quite ready to accuse them of war crimes against Palestinians.
I know there's something horribly frustrating about this kind of incrementalism where we have to fight for every inch but like you pointed out with regard to the folks at 911blogger it does seem to be an effective way to make some progress, however slowly. The point is to keep our eyes on the prize and to play it smart, not letting our emotions get the better of us. And to keep thinking independently and encouraging others to do the same. None of us will or should ever achieve the status of unquestionable authority, including DRG. If indeed it turns out to be the case that he is yet another gatekeeper so be it! He won't suceed at keeping us penned in anymore than any other gatekeeper has. Remember that gatekeepers serve a very useful function in the pursuit of truth--they're usually a good indicator of where to look next!
let me put it another way
suppose hypothetically speaking that DRG knew perfectly well that Israeli elements were a prime suspect in 9/11 and chose not to "go there" as a way of not scaring newbies (or jewish people) off. i propose this hypothetical not knowing whether it is true or not but in the sense that for all intents and purposes there would be no overt difference if it was or not--he would leave it out of his arguments largely.
in this case what is our best approach?
1) denounce him for being a gatekeeper, assisting the cover-up, etc., in which case people would assume that he must definitely exclude the possibility of Israeli involvement when in fact he doesn't?
or
2) simply state that we agree with him for the most part but that in our opinion it is also important to look at Israeli involvement, thus giving the movement the benefit of "ostensible diversity masking actual uniformity"?
Now if he really doesn't think Israel was involved, it would be ostensible diversity masking actual diversity and people he brought into the movement would soon become aware of that diversity and many, presumably, would reach their own conclusions.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't pressure him, or put him on the spot, to come out with something if it means he'll either have to lie and say he doesn't believe it or tell the truth and say he doesn't believe it. Either way it doesn't help us convince anyone that yes, Israel is a prime suspect--quite the opposite.
The hardest truth seems to also sometimes be the slowest truth,
as well as, in the case of 9/11, a highly controversial, and unfortunately, dangerous truth.
I just had a weekend-long visit and conversation on this whole subject being discussed here, so eloquently and excellently in this thread, with an old and dear colleague whom I have not seen since 2001. Over dinner on Friday night, he sheepishly and cautiously brought up the subject of alternative research into the events of 9/11. I then went on info-auto-pilot and just introduced what I thought was the most likely means-motive-and-opportunity scenarios for the 9/11 events, based on research that I have looked into. Turns out, to my complete surprise, that his cousin is this “big, 9/11 truth movement guy,†someone named Richard Gage. It was one of those weird, six degrees of separation moments. Yes, it’s a very small and weird world, fer sure. Needless to say, he and his wife and I talked from then on, all weekend long, about 9/11, false flag terror, the history of Zionism and Israel, Zionist terror organizations and operations, the history of Holocaust revisionist history and World War II, the Walt and Mearsheimer tome, Paul Findley, Israel Shahak, etc, etc.
This experience definitively brought home to me the fact that there is an entire, well-informed, “underground†network of people out there who pretty much know and rationally understand the hardcore and delicate truths concerning the nature of these various, connected “taboo†subject matters.
Gretavo, you are a wise and good man:
“None of us will or should ever achieve the status of unquestionable authority, including DRG. If indeed it turns out to be the case that he is yet another gatekeeper so be it! He won't succeed at keeping us penned in anymore than any other gatekeeper has. Remember that gatekeepers serve a very useful function in the pursuit of truth--they're usually a good indicator of where to look next!†[emphasis mine]
This, of course, relates completely to the Super Brilliant Idea of passing legislation against all revisionist research into the history of THE SUPER SACRED (and one and only) Holocaust™, backed up by the “teeth†of real jail time, loss of career, and even loss of family and friends. To the perceptive eye, such legislation blatantly declares that “there is a truth here which must be hidden at all costs, for if exposed, it would bring down one of the greatest con games of the 20th century – the employment of “the Jewish people†as “human shields†and PR-useful, persecuted cannon fodder for the ultimate advancement of the elitist, global dominion ambitions of the minority Zionist leadership configuration. The “people†always take the brunt of the persecution for the actions launched by the elite leadership, who always seem to forever remain untouched under all circumstances. Did Hitler round up any member of the Rothschild family? Not that I know of.
On the position apparently taken by Professor Griffin (DRG) and other highly public figures regarding Israel and 9/11, I would just like to point out that this subject matter of 9/11 is just a tad bit more dangerous than, say, environmentally taking on the coal mining industry.
Imagine, if you will, that a majority of the American and Western public—via an honest, extensive, and very public investigation into 9/11 and other closely connected matters—comes to the realization that on 9/11/01, America was, essentially (for about the 12th time), fatally and brutally attacked by its “Jewish†friend and ally “Israel,†and that the entire “War on Terror / Muslims†is a complete Zionist-orchestrated, money wasting, life wasting, genocidal fraud. In this truth exposure scenario you, as an investigator and researcher, are essentially discovering truths that can turn the majority of the world’s population completely against the most international, best organized, and highly funded criminal cartels in human history. If you are an academically trained researcher with great public credibility, and you possess potential massive and respected information exposure because of published works of credible, unassailable research, you have the serious potential of shutting this international cartel down FOR GOOD and FOREVER by exposing its many and various ponzi schemes.
Thus, my take on people who know, or should know perfectly well, what is going on here, such as Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky, or DRG, yet are somehow in the habit of making timid, or even completely illogical and asinine statements on 9/11 and its highly prominent and flammable Israeli connections, is that their goal is to avoid a late night visit from Ha Mossad le Modiyn ve le Tafkidim Mayukhadim (‘The Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations’). To put it another way, if you are a very “public†(i.e., very reachable, identifiable) figure, and you have the informational potential to shut “the big game†down, the above Intelligence Institute (as was clearly demonstrated during the “Israeli art students†operation) assuredly knows where you work and where you live. And as the U.S. Army Intelligence estimate in Jane’s Defense Weekly described them – the folks in this organization are ruthless, unpredictable, and very violently and militantly “hard-core.†They strictly follow the Moshe Dayan philosophy of acting like ‘mad dogs’ whose paths all will fear to cross (‘cause they so psycho-killer-frothing-fkn-kraazy). It’s all about intimidation and throwing people off the tops of buildings, and such.
DRG’s research and argumentation on 9/11 as an “inside (i.e., non-Arab) job†has been very tight and top-notch. My take on his not wanting—as a highly public figure—to champion the cause of FULL 9/11 TRUTH before the launching of a real 9/11 investigation with full subpoena power (which is never going to happen, outside of an armed and successful second American revolution), is that he is choosing to stay alive and “fight†another day.
We may naively demand that full research and publication of that research concerning this subject matter is a matter of “free speech†and “freedom of the press,†but the people who control that “free†press, and the people who control them, want us to either shut the fuck up or die, because what we know, and what we can prove, if given a legitimate legal chance, will shut down their entire game forever, and that is something that in their eyes can be entirely prevented due to their fortuitously pre-planned, well-designed control grid.
And on a final note, I also would like to say Hi to Chris, and thanks for sticking around, and thanks for trying to probe the DRG side of things as you have. We have tackled one of the touchiest, most dangerous modern subjects of all, and we need to be aware of the nature of the subject we have tackled and chosen to discover and reveal. O, for the good ol’ simple days when we thought it was just Bush, Cheney, and Rummy, heh, heh, heh... “I was so much younger then. I’m older than that now.†As the Indian Bhagavad-gita teaches, stand up like a warrior for the Truth, and do not be attached to the results, for it is ‘the act of standing up’ that counts.
thanks laz
both for your kind words to me and for a rather tidy summing up of the big game of intimidation that lies behind the big dog and pony show meant to distract us from it. thanks especially for pointing out the fact that Jews have been used as human shields by the Zionists - it is so important for people to see this because it is one of the only things that could possibly lead to Jews throwing off the Zionist monkey (rabid drugged out chimpanzee?) on their backs.
great story about RG's cousin
I had the same experience as Chris in confronting DRG when I tried to lay out the facts for the editor of 9/11: the ultimate truth. It was an ultimate waste of time.
These folks know that if the Swedish foreign minister (Anna Lindt) was stabbed and gutted for saying that Israel was behaving badly, then they and their families certainly face an extremely high risk of being exterminated, perhaps slowly and painfully, for exposing the perps of 9/11 and/or the real truth of the holohoax.
We need a wikipedia-type instrument (9/11-wiki), but that would never work I guess because of those armies of 10,000 Z's with nothing better to do than muck with websites and post pro-Z info. We need armies of people putting out stickers and organizing small groups. Our local group seems to have been infiltrated (no shit), but the infiltrators (traitors) are stupid and obvious.
We will win in the end, but the sheeple have yet to demonstrate to me that they care about truth and justice, not just their own pocketbooks or social schedules. Few around here seem to care about prosecuting those responsible for instituting torture as a new American policy. Perhaps they are just keeping to themselves, like RG's cousin.
Paradoxically, the coming economic meltdown, although painful and destructive, should help the truth along. People may have to cancel their cable tv subscriptions...and then all hell will break loose.
E
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"It is difficult to get the news from poems yet men die miserably every day for lack of what is found there."
--William Carlos Williams (from the poem 'From')
My Back Pages for Lazlo and friends
hey lazlo
i remember those simple old times myself, back when i was around 20 or so and thought it was just the evil Cheney, Bush and Rumsfeld who "done it", failing to see a bigger picture than that. i wish it was as simple as just a few traitors in the Bush clan who pulled it off. as far as DRG goes, im not sure its fear for his safety that keeps him silent on certain issues, i think its more likely he fears the standard charges of "anti-semite!" that are invariably leveled when certain uncomfortable truths are talked about. i sent DRG some of your stuff, heres hoping he actually reads it.
oh he stated as much. i
oh he stated as much. i pointed out to him that hes said he supports the view that the planes were likely flown remotely, at least near the end of the flights, and how that perfectly dovetails with Dov Zakheims shady dealings. he replied that he indeed believes Zakheim was involved but then he gave his ridiculous(imho) excuse about how the COmmission doesnt mention him so he cant. im not trying to be a doom sayer or anything, but i dont know how much time we have to wait for people to come into the fold and then come to their own conclusions. im not saying denounce DRG, but as individuals we should keep the pressure up on him and others in this "movement" to stop self censoring themselves, no matter how tactically sound it seems. its not in my opinion. put him on the spot? i dont know about that, but im all for keeping the pressure up without being disrespectful. nobody is afraid to point out Pakistans "role" in the attacks, nobody is afraid to point out Saudi Arabias "role" in the attacks, no matter how tenuous those roles are. everybody, it seems, is afraid to point out anything that suggests ISrael may have played a role. its depressing.
DRG conservative to the core?
not so sure. just from reading a couple of his books and today the wiki, in my humble opinion, this concservative perception may come from the fact that he is moral to the core and his core was raised up in a christian fundamentalist/literalist medium but from which he rebelled. being a process theologion, he is an inherently super intellectual being, very much moved to justifying the way between supernatural and natural. I see him as an overintellectualized, super-methodical, process philosopher, and not wholely unlike some personally conservative but socially liberal intellectual protestant, catholic, and jewish ministers, priests, rabbi theologians. could be wrong, tho, Gret!
 He ferociously invites and engages in debate with his detractors, which I find admirable; does not want to cast aspersions, just bring people into discourse and debate on the science and evidence.
so how should those in the truth movement who believe in the israeli connection proceed???
one thing that unnerves me, as with some of the other "heros and heroines" of the movement, is the almost snickering laughter habit during his lectures...what's that about?
DRG was on noliesradio tonight...pertinent
this lecture,,"911 and Nationalist Faith" was delivered to a mostly Christian audience, quite synchronous to our conversation. I highly recommend.
And, he touches on the Presby Church USA treatment...
http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/09/14/911-and-nationalist-faith-by-drg/
from guns and butter:
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/47346
you're right kate, I overstated that
I don't think he's definable by that one word. he is cautious and careful to be sure but he also seems to have some progressive views. maybe its a label problem...
hey RT
i actually couldnt agree more, DRG is probably the best public face that 9/11 truth activism has. he has a great command of the facts and his style is exactly whats needed in my opinion-he knows all about the more complicated technical aspects of the attacks but knows well enough to present the info in a way a layman could understand. i guess thats why it bothers me so much that he reacted the way that he did. his answer left a lot to be desired, i honestly would have respected it more if he just flat out said hes afraid for his safety or afraid of baseless but effective claims of "anti-semitism" that go along with questioning Israels role in anything, let alone something as explosive(no pun intended) as 9/11. the lame excuse about how "the 9/11 Commission doesnt mention Zakheim,Suter etc. so I dont" just doesnt seem honest to me. that said, i agree with your overall point about not 'abandoning" or attacking DRG for his questionable stance on a zionist/israel/mossad role in the attacks. i dont trust him but i will continue to use him as a source and hope that hes "for real". i think that remains to be seen. what a tangled fucking web huh?
(mad)off-topic - Elie Wiesel wants YOU to bail out his "charity"
I think we're going to have to start a contest for a new definition of Chutzpah (i.e. something worse than a person who kills their parents then begs the court for clemency on account of being an orphan...)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067270.html
He said the Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity had e15.2 million under management with Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, substantially all of its assets. Wiesel said he and his wife also lost personal investments, but he did not disclose the amount.
...
The 80-year-old Wiesel, on a panel with former U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission chairman Harvey Pitt and veteran short seller James Chanos, suggested a government bailout for the charities.
"I would like, just as they bailed out the banks, to bail out all of the charitable institutions," Wiesel said. "I think it would be a great demonstration that the Obama administration showed that they really think of those who are helpless