Murdering God: Of Shotguns, American Capitalism, and Moral Expediency
Experiencing decreasing levels of the comfort that ensures our loyalty to the criminal enterprise of American Capitalism, we “average†US Americans comprising the poor, working class, and rapidly shrinking middle class still revel in our relatively meaningless social freedoms (we can say “fuck you†to George Bush but can’t even get our “elected representatives†to impeach him for his Nuremberg class war crimes) as the economic manacles and shackles of wage slavery clamp ever tighter about our wrists and ankles.
In pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, we sell our souls for a relative handful of economic crumbs from the table of the US power elite and their express permission to do whatever we please (as long as we stay within “free speech zones,†don’t threaten public officials, commit no acts that impede the sacred cow of commerce, “just say no†to drugs, pay our taxes that fund a massive military apparatus (that has slaughtered millions) and prop up the Zionist squatters in Palestine, look the other way as amoral corporations rape the Earth and torture billions of non-human animals each year, ignore the abject criminality of corporados, Wall Streeters, and those we have “elected,†and act as cogs in the machineries of capitalism to avoid exercising our right to sleep under a bridge).
No doubt about it. We have made our Faustian bargain and are “the murderers of all murderers.†Collectively speaking, we US Americans savagely shoved a 12 gauge into the face of God as He stood, mouth agape, stunned at the depth of the depravity and barbarism of our capitalistic ways. We then unceremoniously splattered His brains across the sky that once served as His canvas at sunrise and sunset.
By liquefying God’s gray matter we ensured the extinction of cumbersome and antiquated moral principles that impeded American Capitalism’s expansion, profit, and growth. Without ridiculous impediments such as justice, compassion, love, the Golden Rule, or truth, souless capitalists found a truly free market in which they could rape, pillage and plunder with impunity, even garnering admiration from the masses for their cunning ruthlessness. To top it off, being the connivers we are, we proudly display God’s colossal decaying corpse (an incarnation more hideous than anything yet to spring forth from Rob Zombie’s imagination) as our “proof†to the world that we are a Christian nation.
And we “comfort ourselves†by wallowing in the fetid sewage that flows freely from our idiot boxes, enslaving our minds to the Bernays-inspired propaganda that ensures our fealty to a system that is murdering the planet and rotting our souls. Reality television provides us with the twisted wreckage and bloody corpses of a horrific car wreck, piquing our morbid curiosity and distracting us from the prick of conscience or any thought of doing something really stupid, like perhaps ending our rape of the Earth. Kens and Barbies, “sage†analysts, establishmentized minorities, and “populists†pulling down six figures or better (all of whom enunciate, dress, and smile to sickeningly unnatural perfection, mind you), deliver the “news†and affirm the “rightness of our Whiteness.†Television is truly a balm to our diseased souls.
TV is so powerful that we don’t even need to be watching it for its “healing powers†to impact us. As the conflagration fueled by American Capitalism’s insatiable lust for profit consumes the planet, we US Americans preoccupy ourselves with our selfish, narrow pursuits and indifferently banter back and forth about the inanities we worship on television. Will the Patriots win another Super Bowl this year? Who is going to win American Idol? What sycophant will give good enough fellatio to become Trump’s apprentice? McMurder for dinner tonight, honey?
“Who will wipe this blood off us?†Since we took God out with a shotgun instead of a blade, we made Lady Macbeth (with her ‘damn spot’) look like a candy-striper. But what did we care? We’d been awash in sanguinary fluid since our ancestors started eradicating the “primitives†who inhabited Turtle Island. Besides, the high priests of American Capitalism and our false idol, Mammon, are more than happy to absolve us of any sin we commit in our pursuit of money, profit, property, or consumer goods.
As for festivals of atonement, no one does it better. While it may be ridiculously hollow and devoid of meaning, we give plenty of lip-service to our love and respect for our murder victim. And when we set aside a special day for God, we go all out!
Take Easter for instance. That is the one Sunday of the year when most of us put on our “Sunday best†and grace Him with our presence at His house of worship.
On Thanksgiving, we display our gratitude for His help in stealing the “Injun’s land†by stuffing our faces with over 40 million turkeys that have been brutally tortured and murdered in our nightmarish factory farming system.
Christmas is the real stunner though. We celebrate His birth by showering ourselves with gifts. December 25th is a disgustingly selfish greed-fest fueled by the runaway consumerism that is capitalism’s life-blood and the environment’s death sentence. How delightfully ironic is it that we honor God by rewarding ourselves and accelerating the demise of the planet? After all, we hailed Him as our Creator and then blew out His brains.
Was “not the greatness of this deed too great for us?†Let’s get serious. We’re Americans. We are the “can do,†“git ‘er done†nation. American Exceptionalism always rises to the occasion, even if the task involves executing a divine being.
And we need “not become gods simply to appear worthy of†having killed God.
As Americans, we already are gods.
For those of you with the chutzpah to challenge that assertion, remember that we have a larger pile of money, bigger guns, more mean-spiritedness, better technology, shrewder business people, and a much larger arsenal of nuclear weapons than any nation on the planet. Any questions?
By Jason Miller
7/12/08
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poetic
only through the first 3 paragraphs! you are very talented, gulu! music is here.
"... propaganda that ensures our fealty to a system that is murdering the planet and rotting our souls..."
right on brother
are you an american?
Wish I could say I wrote that
Its a piece from http://www.bestcyrano.org/THOMASPAINE/.Lots of good writings there.Yes Im an American.I live in Tampa FL.
They always head to Argentina when the walls break down.
“...remember that we have a larger pile of money, bigger guns, more mean-spiritedness, better technology, shrewder business people, and a much larger arsenal of nuclear weapons than any nation on the planet. Any questions?â€
Yes, I do have a question. I was wondering if Jason Miller was referring to Israel in this passage, or is he still talking about America? Also, I would beg to differ with him on a couple of points. I don’t really think “Americans†consider themselves gods. They are just exhausted, over worked slaves who have been continuously lied to and ripped off by, lets call them, “The Real Controllers†and their media helpers. On the moral side of things, I also believe, perhaps hopefully, or naively, that if a people are given full and factual information, i.e. the real truth, by their media and government, they will tend to do the right thing and act accordingly. For example, if 9/11—an Israeli-American Neo-con kill op used to “frame†Arabs—had not been launched, the American people would not ‘bloodthirstily support’ (which they actually don’t) this so-called “War on Terror.†This whole war was not an idea that the American people came up with and pushed for. It was an Israeli idea. This whole “global war on terror†is basically just a different name given to a military plan for Israeli Middle East domination that has been on Israel’s books in various stages of development since at least the early 1980s (the Israeli Hawks do the planning and AIPAC inspires the Congress to cough up the cash and blood sacrifices, er I mean, soldiers). The Americans have been made to feel this terror, anger, and fear by someone who needs the blood of their soldiers to complete a long dreamed of, long-range plan. But because Americans are completely lied to by design, they are, for the moment, unable to recognize their real terrorist attackers, or understand who their very real enemy is. They do not know that the “terror cells†they should be on the lookout for are not al-Qa’ada, but al-Mossada. Don’t follow the breadcrumb trail laid down by the man. Follow the man who is laying down the breadcrumbs. Americans are lied to, broke, confused, and afraid, so of course they want to “fight terror,†but the evil psycho trick being played here is that they have, in actuality, been frightened, terrorized, maimed, and murdered by someone who poses as their friend and ally, a Wolfowitz in sheep’s clothing, so to speak. The real kicker is that this someone, who has on numerous occasions now attacked America and Americans clandestinely, and who knows, we are told, how to really “fight terror†(or at least is good at staging terror events to fight) and has so much experience in doing so, that this polity has offered to help us secure our countries from further attacks by those awful “Muslim terrorists.†How would Americans react if they saw true headlines such as “9/11 Terrorists Gain Full Control of U.S. Transportation System� (OT, did y’all know that Israeli ICTS is now handling security at Los Angeles International Airport? I’m feeling so much more secure already. I’m glad to know that the guys who probably helped make 9/11 the terror success it was are back on the job and protecting their Homeland, wherever that might be.) Remote avionics – a career with a solid future!
I also don’t think that Americans are all that “bloodthirsty†either, and they would not ordinarily feel such apparent fear or hatred for Muslims either, unless the Zionist-controlled mass media (and if anyone has an objection to my characterizing the media this way, do have a look at the names in the “corporate media†org charts in the ownership and editorial control positions.) was not pushing for it. After 60 years of media on this issue, it boils down to Westerners (including all the goyim Barbies and Kens on TV) thinking that the Jews and Muslims having been fighting like this for THOUSANDS of years, and it’s all about religion, and the violent, crazy, and DARK Arabs are always attacking, or plotting to attack, the poor, innocent, eternally victimized Jews. And surprise, surprise, the entire body of generally held notions regarding this history, thanks to the media and educational system, are all 100% pure horseshit (no offence, LH). We now view the very serious situation in the modern Middle East through the lens of an imaginary comic book story, which coincidentally happens to be written and edited by the friends of one of the major aggressors in the real history version of this comic book. Why won’t this supposedly “non-Zionist controlled media†show a four-hour, two part TV special on the real history of Israeli Terror? They should take pride. All these items we have become so accustomed to seeing, such as timed car and truck bombs, letter bombs, exploding paint, suicide belts for patsies, and demolition terror operations, were the ideas and inventions of the Zionist underground in Palestine in the ‘30s and ‘40s. However, everywhere on my TV, I only see Muslims with long beards and big maps of Iran, and this tells me that the “War on Terror†is fueled by fear of the crazed, suicidal Muslim jihadi warrior (groups of which are often controlled by Israeli and other Western interests, see: Chechnya). Without this hysterical, Hollywoodesque, drama-queen, “the Arabs are trying to kill us all†fuel, the fraudulent “War on Terror†would come to a halt, which is why people finding out about Israel’s long history of staged false-flag attacks against their “friends and alliesâ€â€”launched to either paint the Palestinians as “animals†(see: Mossad’s Abu Nidal), or to get the U.S. to kill the Arabs on Israel’s behalf—will not be good for their general plan. It looks bad for Israel to just carry out their whole Middle East plan nakedly, without cover, and by themselves. It would be bad for the old PR, because it would make them look like the “aggressors†in the situation, which, of course, totally blows the valuable utility of being able to pull out the old, trusty “eternal victim of irrational global hatred†image.
And so, in this “War of Terror,†America will ultimately take the blame and be the economic fall guy, while Israel, for some insane reason, thinks it’s going to walk away under the cover of darkness with all the pipelines in the Middle East ultimately heading strait to Haifa. Wars of conquest are bloody and bloody expensive, so it’s always best to find a chump to do it for you (as in die for it, take the blame for it, and pay for it). America may be an ignorant chump now, but the Giant is indeed beginning to wake up to what is really going on, and that, naturally, is not super great, happy-happy joy-joy news for “The Controllers†and their complicit media helpers. Keep your eye on the increasing sale prices of Argentine and Paraguayan ranch land? They always head to Argentina when the walls break down and the angry villagers begin the lighting of the torches.
If 911 did anything it made
If 911 did anything it made the US public more willing to protest against what was done to Iraq. I can remember going to protests over the sanctions against Iraq during the 1990s well before 911. With just a few of us there a large body of the public would look at us as if we were just dumb losers for protesting over something like this which was killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. A lot of them really did act like they thought they were gods. The public became much more open to an antiwar message after 911.
so true
I for one didn't lift a finger and indeed couldn't have told you why the sanctions were wrong. Until 9/11 that is. 9/11 transformed my life utterly. At first I just thought "damn this is what happens when you let your country bully others--let's not make the mistake of perpetuating a cycle of violence" (i.e. blowback theory+antiwar) but when the truth became apparent to me I simply could not continue being apathetic. Now I would sooner die or be killed than go back to being a member of the silent class. No measure of success can now compare to the success that we will measure by how thoroughly we expose the real nature of the 9/11 atrocity. Let no one pity me or think that I bemoan all the sacrifices this has entailed--sacrifice my ass. I discovered everything good about life in this struggle--I went from being an alternately morose and happy go lucky dilettante to being disciplined, principled, passionate and above all appreciative of the true meaning of life. The truth set me free alright--and we've barely even started to fight. :)
An Example of Unchallenged Questionable Assertions
This is the kind of post that makes people like me extremely suspicious of this site. Am I going to be the only one to challenge these questionable assertions? Not only does this post go unchallenged. It has cheerleaders.
L.T. says, "This whole war was not an idea that the American people came up with and pushed for. It was an Israeli idea."
First of all, of course it's true that the "American people" did not come up with the idea for the war, any more than the Israeli people came up with the idea of invading Lebanon. Modern wars are top-down affairs, conceived in the bowels of the State and sold to the people through the Capitalist media.
But the statement by L.T. does not draw any kind of distinction between the people, on the one hand, and the State, on the other. Rather, it sets the American people against the Israeli people, and presumably only against the Jewish Israeli people.
Even if the statement was changed to, "This whole war was not an idea that the U. S. ruling class came up with and pushed for. It was an Israeli ruling class idea," it would still be wrong. Tell me, how exactly the Israelis managed to manipulate Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and Rice into acting against the interests of the U. S. ruling class? The answer, of course, is that they didn't. The U. S. ruling class has a clear interest in dominating the region. Israel is a partner. It is not the puppet master.
Arguing that the U. S. ruling class was either coerced or tricked by the "zionists" into launching two wars of aggression is a patent distortion of reality. What specifically Israeli interests were advanced by the destruction of the Taliban? Are you suggesting that gas pipelines had nothing to do with it? Or that western drug cartels were not smacking (no pun intended) their lips at the thought of turning Afghanistan into one big poppy field?
The argument is perhaps a little stronger in the case of Iraq, because Israel's interest in the crushing of Iraqi power is more evident. But trying to argue that a significant sector of the U. S. ruling class was not genuinely enraptured with the idea of launching a war against Iraq a) as a geopolitical check on Iran b) as a way to control the oil spigot, and c) simply for good old-fashioned war profiteering, is ridiculous.
The notion that the good American people are not naturally bloodthirsty killers, but that the goddam Jewish—um, I mean Zionist media turn them into monsters is borderline neo-nazi. The fact is that propagandists of ALL stripes reach into the human soul and are able to manipulate the “shadow.†It certainly didn’t take the “Zionist media†to turn the good German people into bloodthirsty killers.
Bringing this all back to 9/11, the fact that Israeli intelligence was deeply involved only proves how diabolically well thought out the operation was. First, it would be easier to get non-nationals to commit mass-murder against Americans than it would to get home-grown black ops specialists to do the job. Second, making the operation multi-national would cement ties between the deepest levels of the new fascist axis.
Finally, the fact that these comments went unchallenged for over four days proves some of the points that Petros has been trying to make. There is a culture of subtle Jew-bashing on this site, perhaps so deeply ingrained that it goes by unnoticed, even by people who are otherwise well-intentioned. But the real problem is that it goes by with no critical comment by people who run this site and who should know better. It becomes obvious that they really don't care if a sincere, anti-war Jewish person, or any deeply anti-war/anti-racist person comes along and reads this kind of crap, and then flees in the other direction. It's as if they just want an insular little circle of indignation about anyone who insists on calling attention to the racism because, well dammit, everyone else is so damn anti-muslim, we need to balance it with a little Jew bashing to be fair.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
I disagree with "cheerleading"
Where is the cheerleading for Lazlo's comment? There is an anonymous post in reply pertaining to public resistance to the Iraq war and a post that agrees with that one. Again, as with Petros' misreading of the "communist fucks" sub-thread under another blog, there seems to be a problem with tuning into a conversation and responding to what is real.
On "Zeroing in"
It's true that people who have a particular sensitivity to a perceived injustice are going to highlight it, even perhaps go out of their way to look for it.
By "Cheerleading" I meant that not only were there no uncritical comments about the post, but there were two supportive comments. Did I overstate it by using the word "cheerleading?" I'm not convinced.
But speaking of "zeroing in," isn't that what you just did? You took one point of several -- the one which you found to be most offensive -- and you highlighted it and pointed it out.
Until and unless people of good will are willing to both 1) be sensitive to the issue of hate-mongering and 2) be sensitive to the exploitation of victimhood for nefarious ends, we will continue to be a weak and ineffective voice for truth.
who's "we"?
I'm a strong and effective voice for truth precisely because i'm sensitive those things AND because I am not cowed by anyone or anything into silence when the truth is unpopular. it sounds like you're talking about the weakness and ineffectiveness of the fake left antiwar crowd i'm so familiar with and so glad I saw through in time.
It was a rhetorical "we"
I meant anyone who claims to be a voice for truth and acts in concert with others to advance it.
Yes, I agree
that I zeroed in and made one focused comment. I'm thinking of writing a longer piece -- sort of as a counterpoint to Petros' blog critiquing wtcd -- to suggest that this style of blog/forum is a NEW form and we're not all on the same page with its use. For me, it is perfectly acceptable to make ONE point while drinking a cup of coffee and getting my kid ready for art camp, knowing that I will have more to say. For others, it seems like the expectation is that we're going to read something, go away and write an all-inclusive comment, and then come back and post it. (The downside -- and the really unacceptable side IMO -- is that this *substitutes* for being engaged in a dialog -- ie, no responsibility is felt to come back and RESPOND and CONTINUE the dialog. You are clearly not doing this, but it does seem to be Petros' MO.)
I was noticing the same thing
"no responsibility is felt to come back and RESPOND and CONTINUE the dialog... seem to be Petros' MO."
I used to enjoy Petros' back and forth dialoging in the past, but more recently, Petros just seems to come around once a while hurling racism accusations in drive-by-style attacks, and disappears. Where art thou, Petros? I, for one, would appreciate it if you would respond to some of the responses to the recent racism threads you started and then immediately abandoned.
Cheerleading?
That is what's known as an non sequitur, a hollow protest in my opinion.
One very important thing I learned when I started down the 'Israeli Involvment in 9/11' rabbit-hole was that you must set aside everything you thought you knew to be true along with any preconceived notions of Jewish victimization, it's all a big ruse. Contrary to what you're supposed to believe, every death due to fanaticism and every atempted genocide (not just the fake ones born of oppurtunity & myth) should be condemned.
Ignorance & prejudice go hand in hand, and you'll be hard pressed to find either here.
how many times do we have to go over this?
Zionism is an ideology. Anyone can believe in any ideology. Yes, because Zionism has as its centerpiece a narrative myth and political entity that focuses on Jews and Jews alone, it is natural to associate Zionism and Judaism. It is natural that many Zionists will be Jewish (however defined, i.e. as ethnicity, religion, race, etc.) and many Jews will be Zionists. That was the entire point of Zionism--to get Jews to embrace it.
That said there are numerous exceptions to the tendency for Zionism and Judaism to be associated. Not all Zionists are Jews--many many people have been duped into supporting the illegal and racist Zionist political entity who are not and have never been Jewish in any sense. Many of those who the world MUST consider MOST Jewish, i.e. orthodox Jews, believe that Israel is the spawn of Satan, and that is not meant exactly figuratively.
This reality must be understood in order to draw a distinction between sites like ours and sites like Prothink that have a problem with Jews as Jews, i.e. read the Protocols of the Elders of Zionism [EDIT-I find this freudian slip quite meaningful so I'm not going to correct it] literally. But there is more than one alternative view--one does not have to believe the conventional account the the Protocols were forged by anti-semites in order to justify persecuting Jews. The more nuanced view that I have come to hold is that they were forged by elites who wished in the face of the post-enlightenment wave of emancipation of "world jewry" to use this newly freedom-hungry mass of humanity for their own ends. Thus as Europe moved towards a much more liberal attitude towards Jews, these elites seized on nascent ideals of Jewish nationalism in order to make use of that revolutionary energy for their own ends, which in general terms could be considered global rule by economic elites. Whether those at the top of this conspiracy were all Jews, or all non-Jews, or a combination, the essential fact remains that their actions in no way imply or much less prove the claims of the falsified "Protocols" that this somehow constituted a "Jewish conspiracy".
Nothing about the actions or nature of the state of Israel is Jewish. Repeatedly calling it "the Jewish state" does not and will never make it so. Just ask an anti-Zionist Rabbi, who were much easier to find in the past but are still surprisingly numerous. To suggest that a conspiracy involving Sharon, Netanyahu, Feith, Wolfowitz, Zakheim, and others is a "Jewish conspiracy" is to once again enshrine the falsehood of the Protocols. To suggest that because the notion of a Jewish conspiracy is false and offensive no conspiracies take place in which Jews play a major role is to deny the existence of Jewish mafias, which, like Italian, Japanese, and other mafias, undoubtedly exist.
Now let's be clear--it is apparent that the 9/11 conspiracy involved more than just Jews. Until and only if we have a truly exhaustive and successful investigation will we know exactly who was involved at what level. The prima facie evidence suggests that a significant number of players will end up being people who identify as Jews, but who are most accurately described as fanatics, criminals, and yes, militant Zionists. Among them we may also find a significant number of WASPy Boston Brahmins and perhaps even a few honest to goodness indian Brahmins. And hell, maybe even some Pakistanis. This should neither shock nor unduly concern anyone.
We must also consider that not everyone who was involved was involved from the outset. It is entirely possible that a small core of truly insane fanatics or even just reckless criminals decided to, as Lazlo suggested, do some shit and force people into an extremely difficult choice, or an offer they couldn't refuse, or even an irresistible opportunity for filthy lucre. There will no doubt be scads of categories for classifying all of those involved. In the end the crime of 9/11 must be treated as a single crime. This does not mean that those who willingly and knowingly benefitted from the lie will be off the hook.
Those of us who have spent years studying the issues and observing the movement for truth have come to a number of suspicions as to where the truth will ultimately lie. To suggest that this was a predetermined conlcusion based on innate prejudices or even on a flawed understanding is an insult to us--there is simply no other way to put it. What's worse is that it is an insult launched by people who don't seem to have as good a grasp as us of the facts. It is an insult that is symptomatic and indeed emblematic of the core problem which is that people are deceived in order to be divided. It is that unacceptable pattern that I and others intend to break regardless of what it costs us in terms of prestige, status, wealth, or even, god forbid, physical safety. These are the same risks that David Cole took only to have the world ignore his sacrifice. Except that not everyone in the world did. And I don't care if 99% of those who took note of it are neo-Nazis, racists, or otehrwise hateful people. I do not stand by them in order to stand by David. It is ignorance and cowardice that make those neo-Nazis 99% when they should be .001%. Those who profess to want to liberate humanity should focus more of their energy opposing that ignorance and cowardice alongside us and less on prodding us constantly to disavow things we never avowed in the first place.
jew bashing is NOT allowed here
We simply say what others are afraid to say about how Jews are victimized as much as anyone else by Zionists. Your knee jerk reactions prove nothing other than your own bias against "the US Ruling Class". There is no US Ruling Class, tehre is a Global Ruling Class. Israel was and continues to be their invention and their big lie. America's noble war against Communism (waged against defenseless Vietnamese villagers) is also one of their lies.
What you want to do apparently is make people hate plain old average white Americans. They are your "JOOOZ". It doesn't seem to matter to you how much evidence there is of the crimes of Israeli governments throughout history against the American people--any criticism of Israel is to you a veiled attack on "DA JOOOZ!" It doesn't matter to you that Zionist thugs threatened the life of a freethinker like David Cole JUST BECAUSE HE IS JEWISH. Because you claim to despise (though if you actually do it can only be out of ignorance) what David Cole believes, he drops off your list of Jews that concern you.
I am astonished to this day by the audacity of people to come and nitpick and accuse people on this site of racism, bigotry, or anything else motivated by hate. the fact that you single us out is very telling indeed. It is PRECISELY because we speak of these forbidden things WITHOUT hate that you seem threatened by them If we were Prothink you would likely leave us alone, since they actually serve the interests of the status quo. But because we intend to take the difficult road that actually leads to real change, we must be opposed most fiercely of all, just like David Cole.
First, there is an
First, there is an international ruling class. I'm not sure that I would characterize it as global because there is still such thing as national interests. Sometimes these interests are the same amongst allies and sometimes they still collide. Pakistan was (and still is to a large degree) a partner of the U. S. but their interests may soon be colliding. Certainly there have been bold moves to try to eliminate the natural international competitiveness of Capital, but these measures have their limitations.
Now, please tell me where I have attempted to paint white North Americans as the enemy? I was under the impression that my post specifically denounced any such attempt to hold ANY group of non-elites responsible for the actions of the ruling elite.
David Cole? How did he come into the picture? I am honestly not very familiar with his claims, other than the fact that he questions the use of poison gas by the Nazis in a mass extermination program. I won't comment on the claim, because I have not given it enough honest study. But I assure you that I am not closed to the idea of examining sacred cows. One warning flag for me, however, is when someone waves an idea with missionary zeal, and with apparent rage.
Glenn
right now you need to be aware of the fact that most of the users of this site were just banned and had their IPs blocked by 911blogger and the reason given was, in part, because this site has linked to the documentary by David Cole, a Jewish historian who subsequently had his life threatened by the JDL. So you may not be opposed to examining sacred cows, but a number of us feel recently assaulted by people who ARE.
i admit...
...that i seized on your comment to vent frustration by assuming you held certain positions that you may or may not, Glenn. Since you and Petros seem to be of similar mind on the subject of this site's handling of the issue of Zionism vs judasim vs Jewishness vs Jewiness etc. I replied to your comment in a way I perhaps should have replied to Petros. It is he who has demonstrated to me a) an inability to answer a straight question about his views on skepticism of the official holocaust narrative and b) the tendency to ignore the fact that anti-Americanism (veiled as anti-imperialism) of the kind he espouses is as unfair to average Americans as it is to rail against Zionism without explicitly making the distinction (apparently required over and over) between the "avaerage Jew on the street" and the neo-fascists who founded and continue to drive Zionism. Perhaps I'm simply reflecting your own behavior towards me? Intentionally or not, it illustrates my point.
please refrain from this kind of snark
It's obvious what you're doing, it's not funny, it's not justified, and it will get you banned if you persist. That goes for anyone else who thinks this kind of shit is amusing.Â
Let me just throw in
not so much for gretavo's benefit but for other readers that I know GlennG in real life, consider him a friend, and believe that he is sincere in what he is saying. In a way, that makes it that much more difficult for me to read snarks like this. I think what our mutual friend Petros describes as "an obsession with 'sniffing out' the Jew" can be turned around and seen as psychological projection, also -- it's an obsession with sniffing out the judaeophobe. There are folks -- perhaps GlennG and Petros -- who really have trouble believing that people of good faith have in their own minds uncoupled the identity "Jewish" from all the identities with which it has been conflated with deliberate political intent, including Israeli and Zionist.
well i hope they are able to see that in themselves
and address it, because it flies in the face of exactly what the mission here is which is to show people that lies are used to sow discord and that the only way to reverse that is to expose the lies--all of them. so now i am promoting David Cole with missionary zeal. So be it--if there is anything in this world that i believe in it is that we have to stand up for good people no matter how difficult it may be, and that in the face of overwhelming odds a little zeal is not a bad thing. those who come here to preach to this choir about tolerance and against racism should open their eyes in order to begin the process of extracting the beams that lay therein.
Now two people have
Now two people have characterized my comment as snarky. I'm not so sure that makes it so.
There was a clear and obvious point that I was making when I was conflating Jewish media with Zionist media. The point that I was making is that both are racist, IMO.
Was it the "Zionists" who plotted to overthrow Hugo Chavez in a coup? Has it been the "Zionist media" that has been on an anti-Chavez crusade for the past 8 or 9 years? Is it only a "Zionist Media" when we're talking about the middle east? I think it's important to be careful with terms, and I'm always open to somebody calmly pointing out when I have been careless. But I don't think I have been in this case.
We don't have an argument that the Zionist project has been a central component of Imperialist expansion. But to see every nefarious deed of power through the glasses of "Zionists as Puppetmasters" is what the German National Socialists did to steer the German people away from holding the ruling class accountable, and instead blaming the ills of the world on the Jews. After all, the German industrialists had been doing business with Jewish-owned banks for years. It was only when the system of profits was in severe crisis that many of these industrialist jumped on the Nazi bandwagon.
Why is any of this important? Because clearly, hatred of the Arabs/Muslims has been effectively utilized by the new fascists to whip populations into a frenzy. If we don't have a clear, dispassionate understanding of how divisive hatred attempts to worm its way into every argument, I think we are doomed.
Glenn, gretavo quoted the part of your post which is snarky
in fact, I'd say "snarky" is putting it politely. It's not your whole comment and if you were anyone else, I'd say you were being disingenuous right now. Implying that this site condones or allows the use "Zionist" or "Israeli" as a codeword for "Jew" is not true and is insulting.
I've given a lot of thought to the conversation that you and I and Petros (and Sue) had recently. I find that the whole idea that there is a "psychological weakness" that leads to an obsessive "sniffing out the Jew" is flawed at its core by its essentialization of Jewish identity. The flipside -- the obsession with "sniffing out the Jew-hater" -- arises from this same essentialization/reification.
Well, we'll just have to
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I do not consider it impolite or snarky to point out the way there is a conflation of Jew and Zionist amongst neo-nazis, and I've seen it on this site, albeit a more subtle version, which is why I said "borderline". In fact, you yourself seem to be questioning some of that content yourself on this thread.
It's time to put up or shut up.
That goes for you AND Petros. If you see something like that on the site you need to address it specifically. And if people think you're wrong about it, you need to stick around and argue in good faith. (Here I'm thinking of Petros' reading of that one comment on Nazi racial identification policy.). Saying you "see things like that" but being unable to specify or dissect them is not gonna fly. Vague notions expressed in sexualized amateur psychoanalytic terms (and here I don't mean to pick on you) are gonna go over like a lead balloon.
And now that I'm slightly less pissed off
I just want to add that Israel, AIPAC, Christians United for Israel,et al., ARE ALSO GUILTY OF CONFLATING THESE TWO IDENTITIES. Now ask yourself, who has more access to the media? Who is about a zillion times more likely to meet with success in catapulting that particular meme?
"Gotta keep'em separated." -- the Offspring
clear distinction between Jews and Zionists.
"But the real problem is that it goes by with no critical comment by people who run this site and who should know better."
No. The real problem is one of semantics. You have interpreted Lazlo's words differently. I'm sure you're not the only one and it's certainly too bad that people are quick to disregard such discussion as Jew-bashing, specifically BECAUSE they have been taught to confuse the words Zionist and Jew. I don't hate Jews, I hate racism. Can you see the difference?
Jews belong to a religion. Zionism is a racist ideology. There is a lot of overlap. one does not equal the other.
I understand how the Jewish people have been terrorized into thinking that the world will round them up at a moment's notice. Perhaps exactly so that they will interpret any true analysis as something to fear. I don't hate Jews, I love them. I don't want to round them up, I want to see them empowered to make their religion a more tolerant and accepting religion. At the same time, it sure would be nice if dual citizens were not allowed to hold powerful positions in US federal government! I have no problem with Jews in government, but you've publicly declared loyalty to another nation, I don't want you running mine. Does that make me an anti-Semite?
Okay, Lazlo
I'm going to object to one point you make here and I'd appreciate your clarification. In discussing the "Zionist-controlled mass media" you write
(and if anyone has an objection to my characterizing the media this way, do have a look at the names in the “corporate media†org charts in the ownership and editorial control positions.)
The way this reads is "Gee, there are a lot of Jewish-sounding names on that list." While I agree that the mass media is neo-con/Zionist/giant corporation controlled -- ie, that control by individuals with a Zionist agenda is a part of the picture -- a Jewish-sounding name does not a Zionist make. (And as that CUFI video atrocity in the other thread showed, there is no need to have a Jewish-sounding name to be rabid Zionist.) Perhaps you know that these individuals are in fact Zionists, members of AIPAC, or something similar -- in that case, please take care not to leave yourself open to misreading.
let's put it this way
hypothetical fact 1: the media are quite obviously controlled by people sympathetic to Zionism or else we would see evry different coverage
hypothetical fact 2: you might well find a disproportionate number of Jewish names at high levels in media companies (i say you might, i haven't bothered looking)
these two hypothetical facts would SUGGEST, if true, that in the case of the Jewish folks who work in the media the Zionist propaganda that tells Jews they must support Zionism has had some effect. it does NOT mean that there is some "Grand Jew" somewhere telling all of these loyal minions what to do. I agree that Lazlo could have phrased things better but still, there is a bigger issue here that is not quite so clear cut as some people like to think.
I think we can call "fact 1" established
I was thinking about that today while I was trapped in front of several tvs covering the (allegedly) Palestinian bulldozer-attacker. OMG, no one could have foreseen the use of bulldozers as weapons of terrorism... oh wait, except for all those people whose houses have been bulldozed... and then there's Rachel Corrie (PBUH)... but you know, come to think of it, I've never seen any of that stuff on tv so maybe it's less real.
The question then becomes, what point is there in moving on to hypothetical fact 2? Perhaps if, by understanding the emotional blackmail to which people who identify as Jewish are subject when it comes to Zionism, we can generate some constructive compassion for them.
My issue with Lazlo's phrasing is simply that it's left wide open to misreading, and all of a sudden we have people calling us neo-Nazis, which I really dislike. (I don't know -- did my dislike come across?)
yes yes and yes and for the last time YES
The question is indeed what point is there. Contructive compassionate pressure, yes. Also to gain an understanding of what feeds perceptions (as misguided as they may be) of grand Jewish conspiracies among ignorant people who have not had the educational opportunities you and I have? Or should we just be glad that there are such ignorant people because then we have a whole class to look down on and righteously hate? No, we should not fear information and facts. We should not fear discussion that seems at first to not lead anywhere constructive. We can do this when we learn to understand and let go of the many forms of manipulation that we are conditioned with. Does refusing to talk to a neo-Nazi on the street make one a better person? Does hurling insults at them do it? Or is it better to talk to them and try to understand why they believe what they believe? That's why banning that guy a while back was a hard choice to make--in the end the decision was based on the concern over keeping the focus of the site on 9/11 and not arguments about racial theories and compteing cultural groups. It's a fascinating subject to be sure, especially given the existence of bizarreness like the little girl rock group Prussian Blue... but that's a whole other can of worms of course...
Glenn, regarding my borderline Neo-Nazi writings,
I would like to start off my reply to you with this quote from the Jason Miller article, and my already published quip at the end.
“...remember that we have a larger pile of money, bigger guns, more mean-spiritedness, better technology, shrewder business people, and a much larger arsenal of nuclear weapons than any nation on the planet. Any questions?â€
“Yes, I do have a question. I was wondering if Jason Miller was referring to Israel in this passage, or is he still talking about America?â€
Uh, Glenn, I was just being bitingly sarcastic here. I wasn’t actually trying to imply that ALL Israelis or ALL Jews were ‘mean-spirited’, etc. This is a method of political sarcasm which exploits for shock value, in this case, the common notions of what consist of basically classic “anti-Semitic canards.†Do check out the Gonzo journalism of Hunter S. Thompson, or Jonathan Swift (“political correctness†is designed to make you soft in the head). Anyways, by the end of Jason Miller’s article, I was just getting the sense from the author that he was perhaps a devotee of the State of Israel who was sick of hearing all the Israel-bashing that has been going on all over the internets, and he decided to do one of those “blame it all on stupid America†articles, several of which I have seen lately. This is probably why Kate questioned whether the author was “an American,†because in his expressions he just seemed to have this extra bit of “foreign†vitriol in his case against “America,†which would certainly be appropriate for say someone writing a blog from Israel (and I am not saying that ALL Israelis hate Americans and think they’re stupid). I have seen some classic examples of this type of article over the last couple of years. I certainly do not deny that the USG has done many awful things over the decades, but this type of article, wherein everything is blamed on Christians and the American government, or only Christian names are mentioned as possible perpetrators of 9/11, seems to be a popular genre used by Zionist bloggers to cover-up ANY Israeli, Jewish, or Zionist involvement in anything criminal at all, anywhere, and at anytime in the history of the human race. To suggest otherwise is just pure “hate speech†and “anti-Semitism.â€
Instead of taking the author’s side, and getting mad at “Americans†for their supposed stupidity and naivety, however, I felt it would be better to more correctly assign the blame for that stupidity on the Media which has cheer-leaded America and other countries into a fake “global war on terror.†The owners (i.e. majority shareholders), directors, and the senior editorial controllers of these media companies know full well who “did 9/11.†And yes, the media is dominated and owned by people who are often uncritical supporters of all agendas and projects championed by the State of Israel, including the nuking of Iran. Again, Glenn, I am not talking about EVERYBODY in the media, ok. We are talking about the complicit liars at the top - men and women with the blood of innocent soldiers and civilians on their hands - people like the Zionist media mogul Rupert Murdoch, who knows full well that no Arab hijackers were involved in those 9/11 attacks, and that those buildings were wired for demolition. Murdoch knows who did it, and he is making huge profits from all his racist, anti-Semitic fake news and his cover-up of the terror war hoax. The American people and their military forces have been essentially conned into a series of wars, which yes, are primarily for the benefit of Israel, at least that’s what Zelikow and other Neo-cons have admitted to, and their manifestos and position papers have also certainly said as much. None of this is hidden. They like to keep it all out in the open and see if the grass-eating sheeple will notice anything, or connect the dots and make the connections. It’s a little psychopathic game that these criminals always like to play.
When I wrote that the “War on Terror†(a term first coined by Binyamin Netanyahu) was an “Israeli idea,†obviously I am not referring to the Israeli people. When I use the term Zionist, in fact, I am not even referring to ALL Zionists, for there are different factions. I am talking about the militant right-wingers (Likud-Kadima, Gush Emunim, AIPAC, ADL, JDL, JINSA, AEI, etc, etc.). I also believed I clarified what particular Israelis I was originally referring to in the very next sentence, which you must have skipped over:
“This whole ‘global war on terror’ is basically just a different name given to a military plan for Israeli Middle East domination that has been on Israel’s books in various stages of development since at least the early 1980s (the Israeli Hawks do the planning and AIPAC inspires the Congress to cough up the cash and blood sacrifices, er I mean, soldiers).â€
I also referred to Israel as “a polity.†When a newspaper writes something like, “it is American policy to...†The writer is referring to the policy of “a polity,†not “a people.†And Glenn, based upon the lengthy historical string of proven Israeli false flag operations launched against America; the documented history of Israeli espionage, surveillance, theft, and proliferation of U.S. nuclear technology and computer codes to countries such as China and South Africa; as well as possessing the power—through money, guilt, and various methods of extortion—to control the U.S. congress and senate, at least on Middle East and general foreign policy, I most certainly do believe that the U.S. and Canada have an “Israeli-Zionist dual-national treason problem,†and this problem has found its way into the controlled and heavily censored media as a method of covering up crimes at a very high level, nationally and internationally. You should also note that I DID NOT say that the U.S. and Canada have a “Jewish problem.†If, however, the detection of espionage and false flag operations by Israelis and American Jews against the U.S. is prevented or covered up due to not wanting to offend the Jewish community and give it bad PR, then you have a big, and very real, national security problem right there. Israeli ICTS Intl. handling security at LAX. That is a prime example of the security problem I am referring to, because that is a company (located at Tavistock South) which “handled†London tube and bus security during the 7/7 attacks, and was also, as subsidiary Huntleigh USA, at the helm of Logan and Newark airport and United and American airline security during the 9/11 operation, and any investigation of this company is, for some odd reason, prevented by a district judge with close ties to Israel. DHS, of course, will not prevent ICTS (International Consultants on Targeted Security) from taking over at LAX because DHS is controlled at the top by a high-level Israeli. So, I’m sure you can see the many serious U.S. national security problems here. You might as well put UBL and Mullah Omar in charge of LAX and other such sensitive national entry areas, like the Port of Houston. The Jewish people, however, also have a very big problem in that they have a minority, elitist right-wing leadership which is doing things in their names which need to be immediately stopped and spoken out against for the actual benefit of the whole of the Jewish community, i.e. ALL Jews. This antiquated tribal idea that we have to protect the criminals of our tribe from being discovered by the people of the other tribes, or we will be wiped out, is just something which must be given up for the good of the whole tribe.
No Glenn, the Jooz do not run the world, and the actual Zio-power-configuration (ZPC) that does exist does not have full or total control either. I was talking about an elite minority of Zionist powerbrokers (cf. someone like Frank Lowy), working in alliances of mutual convenience and expediency with other, “non-Jewish,†if you will, members of “the Big Club.†This is why, at the beginning of my blog, I used the broader term “The Real Controllers,†as opposed to something much narrower and more inaccurate such as, “the world Jewish conspiracy.†I am well aware of the major divisions in this global power club, such as the James Baker crowd – ‘the Realists’, sometimes called ‘the Arabists’, and then we have the Carlyle Group-Bush-Saudi Royal crowd, the Turkish elites, and on and on. I have read all the way through the list of names on several Bilderberg Confab attendance lists before, Glenn. I know about the Bank of England and the wealth and power of the British royals. I am also aware of the long-time Israel-India alliance (cf. bogus Atta-wire transfer stories placed by Indian Intelligence in “The Times of Indiaâ€) and how the destruction of Muslim Pakistan plays into all of this. No one ever seems to talk about that Israel-India alliance very much, do they? I am aware that “the Israelis†(and remember, I’m not referring to ALL Israelis here, sheesh) were apparently pissed at Bush because he took “Heroin-land†first, and didn’t “do Iraq†right away. I have also read the annual UN crop reports on Afghan opium poppy production. Right after 9/11, the Israelis wanted to get right to the start of their part of the plan which was to have the U.S. take out Iraq first, then Iran, then Syria and Lebanon, and then, eventually, Saudi Arabia. Yes, you are correct, the Afghanistan operation was more for the Brzezinski faction side of things. WE MUST FIRST CONTROL THE CASPIAN BASIN, taking the oil out through Afghanistan and Pakistan. A lot of reasonable, rational Jews have begun to seriously worry and wonder if the Israeli government (and I’m not talking about EVERYONE in the Israeli government) is smoking a little too much of that Afghan product coming in at the ports. “Yeah, and after ‘we’ take Saudi Arabia, we’ll then conquer several planets in Alpha-centauri-67!†Even Efraim Halevy, the head of Mossad during the 9/11 period, recently told the war-hawks in the Knesset that an attack on Iran might turn out to be real-world suicide for the ol’ State of Israel. That’s right, kidz, even the elders are saying that it’s time to put those Dr. Doomsday comic books down and stop drinking that purple Kool-aid, there is a “real-world†cliff edge up ahead.
I also would like to clarify that I have never said, nor do I think, that “the Jooz run the world†or that ALL Jooz are in on some kind of collective Protocols of Zion type conspiracy. There is a real “Globalist Conspiracy†(cf. Rockefeller’s memoirs) on many levels, affecting many things, and the wealthy, elitist supporters of Israeli Zionism are definitely major players. For some reason though, all other player components of this NWO can be discussed, but not the Jewish or Zionist players. Why is that? I know the Saudi royals are players, but I do not hate the Saudi people. I know that Cheney was one of the 9/11 planners, but I do not hate ALL Methodists. I have a pretty solid idea of who the major operators in the 9/11 planning and cover-up were, but I do not hate ALL the Jews or even ALL the Zionists. Come on, Glenn we’re not total idiots here. I also support the work of B’Tselem, and last time I looked, they seem to be liberal, left-wing Zionists, although AIPAC considers them all to be “self-hating†Jews.
On the confusion of Jews, Zionists, and criticism of, or lack of support for Israel being equated with anti-Semitism, the Israeli historian and frequent contributor to Ha-aretz, Tom Segev wrote in “Israel and the Memory of the Holocaust†(published in Le Monde Diplomatique, April 2001):
“Ben Gurion had two goals: one was to remind the nations of the world that the Holocaust put them under an obligation to support the world’s one Jewish state. ‘In Egypt and Syria the Nazis’ disciples wish to destroy Israel, and this is the greatest danger awaiting us,’ Ben Gurion said, adding that the anti-Zionist propaganda coming out of Arab capitals was anti-Semitic and inspired by the Nazis: ‘They generally say ‘Zionists’ but they mean ‘Jews’.†This led to the conclusion that the enemies of Israel were the enemies of the Jewish people and supporting Israel was equivalent to fighting anti-Semitism. Thus the Holocaust was to confirm the moral validity of the Zionist idea and serve the purposes of the state of Israel.â€
So when I use the word “Zionist,†I am not using it as a cover for the word “Jew.†I am well aware of the differences and similarities between a Jew and a Zionist. There are orthodox rabbis who consider ALL Zionists to be Jewish apostates. All Jews are not Zionists, and all Zionists are not Jews, although the Zio-propaganda machine would like you to think so. For example, Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl is a Jew. Ariel Sharon is a Zionist (but of the non-liberal, militant right-wing variety). The Likud Party of Sharon and Netanyahu, et al., it must be remembered, grew out of Menachem Begin’s Herut Party, which was a party with direct roots in the underground, terrorist group Irgun Zvai Leumi (IZL). These guys have been blowing up buildings and airplanes for a long time now. That’s why they’re so good at “handling†security.
I appreciate your calm tone
I appreciate your calm tone and the effort you put into your response to me. You are certainly prolific. Hopefully we can engage in a constructive dialogue, willing to examine our respective deficiencies in understanding, our personal biases, etc. with minimal histrionics.
A good friend of mine used to say that there are two things required to enter the Kingdom of God: a keen intellect and a pure heart. It's a constant struggle to keep shining the light in the darkened corners of our hearts, but there is no viable alternative.
Whether we like it or not, whether we think it should be this way or not, issues of collective victimization are deeply emotionally charged. If we are cavalier about the suffering of others or if we appear that way, we should expect to be met with indignation and resistance. Some of your comments that I have read have fallen into this category, IMO. If you would like further specific examples from the ones that kicked off this dialogue, I will provide them at some point. But for now, until I feel that there is a semblance of trust between us, I will keep the comment general.
I am not a "holocaust revisionist." Perhaps this is because from the admittedly limited research into the subject that I have done, I have seen no compelling reason to seriously question the accepted narrative. Or perhaps I have an emotional resistance to looking more deeply, particularly since I have personally known people who obviously suffered trauma in Nazi concentration camps. Or perhaps I mistrust the motives of those behind the holocaust revisionist movement and I perceive it to be an effort to minimize the real suffering of others in order to advance a political agenda.
[Another historical holocaust, the African slave trade, is subject to its own revisionism. There are those who feel compelled to point out that Black Africans participated in the trade and profited off of it, in a seeming attempt to at least partially exculpate those Europeans and Americans who were the main perpetrators. While it may be true that a handful of Africans were operatives of the slave trade, the victimization and suffering by African slaves was very real, and there would have been no mass African diaspora without the European and American "masters."]
But do I need to be a holocaust revisionist in order to have a clear understanding of forces behind 9/11? This seems to be the unofficial orientation of this site. I say this because there are numerous threads promoting holocaust revisionism, there is mutual support from the main participants for such posts, and people who express offense at the orientation, like myself, get accused of hating white Americans. If this is the orientation of the managers of this site, then it should be clearly stated.
The logic seems to go like this: 9/11 was an inside job that clearly involved Israeli intelligence operatives who were working to carry out an agenda that serves the interests of right-wing zionists. They have perpetrated a Big Lie. It's not merely that a crime against humanity was exploited to advance an agenda; it was perpetrated by them for that purpose. Therefore, anything that has served this agenda, including the holocaust, is suspect. It's not simply that the holocaust was exploited to advance the establishment of the zionist state, it was, in large measure, made up -- another Big Lie.
Speaking of exploitation, from my perspective this posture exploits the horror of 9/11 for the purpose of promoting a broader political orientation: the idea that zionism is the global center of sedition.
Of course, anyone is entitled to this opinion, but I do not believe it to be a reflection of reality, I do not believe that it is required to fully understand 9/11, and I DO believe that there is a hateful caricature at its core: the conniving Jew.
Not that there are no conniving Jews in the world (Larry Silverstein comes to mind!) There are plenty, unfortunately, along with conniving individuals of all stripes. They are the rulers of the world and they come in all shapes and sizes.
Based on what you wrote above, I'm assuming now that we agree that the American people and the Israeli people and the Palestinian people and the Pakistani people (etc., etc.) have very little to say in what catastrophic directions their rulers lead them. Personally, I carry around a mixed set of opinions around this question: What is the culpability of civilian populations when their leaders commit war crimes and other crimes against humanity? On the one hand, on a spiritual level, I believe that the people do carry with them a degree of responsibility. By allowing propagandists to stroke their vanity with an array of exceptionalist/supremacist ideologies, they allow themselves to be led down the dark ally. On the other hand, I know that most people don't have the time, education or accessible information to understand the forces at play. Propaganda is designed to be easily digested. The truth, however, is a hard nut to swallow.
Finally, you loose me when you start talking about the betrayal of U. S. national security. The United States' posture toward the world has not been a defensive one for most of its history. Certainly, since the end of WWII, the U.S. "security" apparatus has been waging aggressive warfare all over the globe. Israel has been a junior regional partner in that Imperialist expansion (and in some cases, beyond regional, as in its participation in South African and Central American wars).
Without question, AIPAC is a very powerful player in U. S. politics, in some cases virtually steering U. S. policy in the middle east. But to loose site of the fact that the senior imperialist partner murdered millions of southeast Asians, tens of thousands of Central Americans, (at least) thousands of Central Asians, and aided and abetted murderous tyrants around the globe in order to advance its perceived interests, and to instead present the junior partner as the puppet master, your ZPC (!?) is to engage in a kind of nationalistic fancy footwork.
preconceived notions are the enemy, Glenn.
"Or perhaps I mistrust the motives of those behind the holocaust
revisionist movement and I perceive it to be an effort to minimize the
real suffering of others in order to advance a political agenda."
No, This is not the goal of historical revision, this is exactly the funtion of the Holocausttm Myth.Â
"[Another historical holocaust, the African slave trade, is subject to
its own revisionism. There are those who feel compelled to point out
that Black Africans participated in the trade and profited off of it,
in a seeming attempt to at least partially exculpate those Europeans
and Americans who were the main perpetrators. While it may be true that
a handful of Africans were operatives of the slave trade, the
victimization and suffering by African slaves was very real, and there
would have been no mass African diaspora without the European and
American "masters."]"
Have you ever heard of Professor Tony Martin? Please watch this.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1966135525893447110&q=prof.+ton...
I do not question history out of hate or prejudice of any peoples. The fact that you can freely question any other race or religions misdeeds throughout history except for people who identify as "Jews" and what role they may have played is a huge red flag to me.
Putting a TM next to the
Putting a TM next to the word Holocaust seems "snarky" to me. Yet the managers of this site let it slide. Referring to David Cole's critics as "insane" seems to be "snarky" as well. Perhaps they can define the term more clearly, because there seems to be a double standard.
I've been doing a little research about holocaust revisionism and I find the following site to be enlightening:
http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi
This site is clearly not the place for me, so I'll be moving on. Peace.
Snarky, I suppose. Inaccurate? I think not.
Does Africa or African Americans have a billion dollar industry built around their forced servitude?
Where's the Native Americans Holocausttm museum?
Think the million+ Iraqis murdered will deserve one? Think they'll get one?
You seem to be more interested in supressing the truth than revealing it. I'm afraid you'll soon find there are becoming less and less places for people like yourself. Â
For god's sake, so we need a reading comprehension test here?
Gretavo's reference was to "some of his less insane critics." I believe he was thus placing the critics he was citing IN OPPOSITION to the people *I* cited, who wanted to wipe David Cole off the map, so to speak. And the critics he cited? They're at freaking nizkor.org!
well those who are determined to stir up trouble...
Will of course point out that by saying less insane I implied that they are still somewhat insane. No biggie. Anyone who can't address David Cole's persecution or his legitimate work and instead puts up links to dishonest debunking sites may as well say "farewell, cruel blog" and make himself scarce, which I'm glad Glenn has done. Sorry Cass, but friend or no friend we really don't need people with agendas and ulterior motives here.
Now *that* was a little snarky...
...and not for GlennG's benefit (crap, I seem to have a bead stuck under my "F" key) since he is no longer going to read the site, but it is really important to understand who David Cole's critics were/are. They are people who threatened his life because he dared to disagree with aspects of a historical narrative. Maybe "evil" would be a better descriptor than "insane", but they are clearly people operating far outside the bounds of civil discourse.
bye Glenn!
don't let the door... etc.
you are just the latest in a long line of people who can't or won't actually discuss facts and get frustrated when people don't respond positively to their various demands. my suspicion is that you and Petros are trying to emotionally manipulate Casseia into disassociating herself from us because you are afraid that we are right about a lot more than you want to admit. I used to have friends like you and as soon as they realized they were not going to be able to manipulate my beliefs and opinions they ceased being so friendly. my real friends may not always agree with me but they respect both my good and honest intentions and my right to hold beliefs or associate with people that they do not understand, without penalizing me. If you actually bothered to do discuss anything of substance instead of playing PC police I might give you the benefit of the doubt but I think you and Petros have made pretty clear that you have an agenda that has little to do with 9/11 truth.
What I'm curious to know...
is if Glenn ever posted over at 9/11shiller under the name "misterguy". He also seemed to think the nizkor.org arm of the ADL was a credible "debunker" site.
You know, I asked him that point blank once
while sitting at his kitchen table -- he denied it, and I believe him. My current theory (not worth much) is that "misterguy" is Mark Robinowitz (get it? "MR") of islamophobiaempire.com -- oh wait, I think it's actually "oilempire." MR is down the valley in Eugene, but probably would want to pass himself off as a Portlander. GlennG does post as "turboglo" at blogger, though -- and his posts are generally compassionate and insightful. I think we've just run into an impasse with him here.
Just a snarky guess on my part.
As they both seem to attribute more value to disinfo than the truth.
I truly hope he rethinks his knee-jerk reaction & does a little soul searching.
Sure, here we go...
First of all, Nizkor's site is not simply dishonest, it is dishonest in the same way that 9/11 "debunking" sites are dishonest. Straw men, etc. The methods are subtle in some cases, not so subtle in others. "Holocaust-denial/deniers" is a term applied in a pejorative sense as well as inaccurately, and generally the tone of Nizkor's FAQ makes clear that they are hardly objective, not even trying to appear objective actually. As a specific example I give you #5, which has to do with the alleged Auschwitz gas chamber discussed by David Cole in his film:
5. Auschwitz was in Poland, not Germany. Is there any proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz?
The IHR says:
The IHR says (revised):
Nizkor replies:
Now I don't know about everyone else, but any site that puts up something like this as a defense of one of their arguments is not a site I want to waste too much time combing for crap (my comb just isn't big enough.) By all means, though, I encourage people to check it all out in combination with responsible revisionist literature. just as I have no problem encouraging people to read Popular Mechanics' book alongside David Ray Griffin's answer to it.
One day this will be applied to 9/11...
We don't have to prove that it's true because a judge says that it's true--it just is--everyone knows it is, ok? Uh huh. Yep. Great defense there, if you can get it.
Thoughts?
and look, it's Michael Shermer, AGAIN!
talk about things not reasonably being subject to dispute - like "Michael Shermer is a lying shill for hire"
Jimmy Walter and his million dollar challenge better be careful!
New York Times
September 11, 2013
Judge Orders 9/11 Crackpot to Pay Up
Judge Alvin Hellerstein marked the 12th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 atrocities today with a verdict against 9/11 crackpot conspiracy theorist James "Jimmy" Walter, ordering him to pay $1,000,000 to respected community service icon Joan Gold of Philadelphia.
Gold sued the miscreant Walter when Walter refused to pay Gold $1,000,000 after Gold provided evidence that the twin towers could have been destroyed by airplane impacts and jet fuel fires alone. Walter argued that Gold's evidence, which consisted of a pencil drawing showing two buildings on fire and then collapsing, did not meet the standard of evidence he was willing to accept in exchange for the $1,000,000 prize.
Judge Hellerstein ruled, however, that the fact that the plane impacts and fire alone caused the towers' collapse was a well known fact and not reasonably subject to dispute. Michael Shermer, professional skeptic, expressed his view that Hellerstein's decision was a victory for skepticism and free inquiry. "As skeptics we can't just be skeptical for skepticism's sake, we must be properly skeptical of things that are reasonably subject to dispute. Judge Hellerstein made it very clear in his ruling that anyone who believes that anything other than the planes and fire brought down the towers is lying or clinically insane."
Outside the courthouse, activists from WeAreStrange.com waved bloody placards featuring pictures of the Virgin Mary performing fellatio on Adolf Hitler. "We just want people to know the TROOOOOF!!" said one in heavily German-accented English before squatting and defecating on a copy of The Diary of Anne Frank. "Look!!" he screamed as onlookers vomited and fainted "the diarrhea of Anne Frank!"
Oh my god, that one is just classic
I don't like to be made to convulse with laughter at my neighborhood coffeehouse, but I'll forgive you.
[edit: Simply because we all seem to be lacking the time to read carefully and apply common sense these days, I thought it would be good to clarify that what made me expel caffe latte via my nose was the pinpoint accuracy with which gretavo skewers the "Truth" movement dynamics and figures we all know and love, NOT the desecration of a book.]
i'm sure they already suspect you
are special... ;)
oh thank goodness!
I was sure it was your anti catholic-streak coming out... how much DID you end up paying for Piss Christ? ;)
Excellent satire G. Gonzo Journalism at it's best.
Hunter Thompson would be proud.
thanks for asking for it
you held me to a standard that i agree was merited.
Nizkor, like 9/11 "debunkers", attack straw-men...
Scrubby. Their lies & omissions become all too transparent when you've look at both sides of the argument.
one last thing before you go...
Since I presume you like us are dedicate dto exposing the truth about 9/11, please do feel free to let us know the name of the site you end up finding that you feel does 9/11 truth right! And if you can't find one, please start one yourself if you honestly are interested in 9/11 truth (cause you know I kind of doubt that you are.)
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Deleted double post
"If we are cavalier about
"If we are cavalier about the suffering of others or if we appear that way"
Would you argue that someone who doubts the story of 400,000 Kurds having been murdered by Saddam Hussein is being cavalier towards Kurdish suffering? This is what the methodology of the Holocaust industry always reduces to. You're not allowed to treat the subject as something open to skepticism without immediately coming under suspicion for insensitivity. Whatever someone's view on the Kurds and their treatment by the Ba'athist regime, it's not likely that anyone would bother to charge that insensitivity is at the root of all doubts about the 400,000 gassed Kurds story. But with the alleged Holocaust we always return to insensitivity as the crux of everything.
GlennG, I suspect this is your crux
"Or perhaps I have an emotional resistance to looking more deeply, particularly since I have personally known people who obviously suffered trauma in Nazi concentration camps."
emotional resistance
Now we're getting somewhere. GlennG, you seem like a fairly intelligent and logical fellow, but you seem to be oblivious to how you are allowing your emotions to overwhelm your logical faculties in this case. Even the brightest among us are capable of being swayed by our emotions and by those who mean a lot to us. Let's rephrase your line as follows:
"Or perhaps I have an emotional resistance to looking more deeply into 9/11, particularly since I have personally known people who obviously suffered trauma in the terrorist attacks."
So strong and powerful is this particular emotional rationale that you admitted to, that it informs the other two of the 3 you listed. I strongly suspect that is it because of this powerful emotional resistance of yours that you see no compelling reason to seriously question the accepted narrative. And, because of this powerful emotional resistance of yours, you therefore mistrust the motives of those behind the holocaust revisionist movement and perceive it to be an effort to minimize the real suffering of others in order to advance a political agenda.
Again, for the umteenth time, NOBODY IS SAYING THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T SUFFER TRAUMA IN NAZI CAMPS. Now, see if you can parse this information logically without your emotions getting in the way, just for a moment, at least long enough to be able to consider the possibility that there are actually people who genuinely are NOT motivated by racist bigotry/ignorance backing their interest in holocaust revisionism. If you are unwilling to take people at face value and accept their stated motivations and agree that people are arguing from good faith, then you cannot have a reasonable and respectful dialogue with them. You are simply projecting where people are coming from based on your lifelong programming, rather than listening to where people are coming from.
So, unless you can demonstrate actual evidence of racist bigotry, rather than just presupposing that "anyone who is into holocaust revisionism is therefore necessarily motivated by racist bigotry/ignorance", then you should, as casseia said, "either put up or shut up." Reread the site guidelines, please.
Howdy Glenn, here’s another one of my long-ass, multi-point
replies --
Right off the bat, I do want to thank you for your pointing out perceived problems of ‘insensitivity to real human suffering’ here and your objections to, or misunderstandings of, a possibly imprecise application of ‘emotionally sensitive’ terms without precise clarification and definition that I, or others, have perhaps carelessly, in the heat of watching the current crop of ongoing genocides, indulged in on this blog. We can always improve our presentation of hate-free, yet controversial political information and discussion by refining and further clarifying its content better through honest “here’s how it looks to me†kinds of assessments from folks like yourself and Petros. (How is Petros?) And I say this with honest sincerity. I am not just being satirically sarcastic, which I will try to alert people to a bit more in the future, or not. From reading some of your perceptions of what people on this blog apparently believe, however, it seems that your understanding is based upon a purely emotional reaction to subject matter which you apparently have not paid very much attention to (no fault of your own), especially in regards to such subject matter’s subtle nuances and historical particularities. In other words, it seems you are not actually reading or clearly understanding the actual CONTENT, but are rather perceiving it all through an emotional lens which is being coloured by all the pre-conceived notions about this ‘type of material’ which you have ‘environmentally’ acquired. I am not trying to throw any negative dissing your way here. I do not know you as a 3-D, real-world individual. I am only saying that this is my perception of your perception. For example, you keep mentioning this notion of bloggers here speaking in vague, uneducated generalities and maintaining a worldview based upon blanketed, sometimes racist, assumptions, but I have never seen anyone here ever say, or even imply, “The Jews did this,†or “The Jews did that,†or “ALL Israelis are fucked up in the head,†or “ALL Arabs and Muslims are terrorists,†or “ALL Americans are bloodthirsty imperialists,†etc., and I have been hanging out here at Gretavo’s pad almost from the beginning, since the time of DZ getting sent to that “ghost ship†off of Madagascar for allowing us to chit chat too much on his blog.
I am placing your comments in italics here for commentary/discussion purposes.
“...issues of collective victimization are deeply emotionally charged.â€
Yes, of course, but you don’t see the also very real Christian victims of the massive Armenian Genocide or Ukrainian Genocide, or the native Americans, or the African diaspora of slave trade victims whining every five frickin’ minutes about needing more reparation cash delivered to the somehow, still traumatized victims of a long ago 4 ½ year period of incarceration, and calling for more “Holocaust museums†to be tax-payer funded and built in every town and village so our politician-puppets can bow and scrape before the false idols of the non-Jewish, Zionist Israeli state religion of the Shoah.
800,000 Palestinian Arabs driven at gunpoint, and fear of slaughter in 1948 (I have all the films) from their homes and lands by European converts to the Iron Age religion of Judaism who were under the delusion that some mythic Canaanite deity named YHWH made an eternal real estate deal with the original, Byzantine era, Semitic, rabbinic missionaries’ ancestors who converted their Turko-Caucasian ancestors to monotheism in the 8th century. How about a NEVER AGAIN movie, tee-shirt, book deal, concert tour on that crime?
“If we are cavalier about the suffering of others...â€
Saying that the multi-volume International Red Cross records (and they were the organization which supplied the detention camps with food and medicine, and monitored camp conditions on a regular basis), the Allied-seized German detention camp records, and the original Soviet records (handed over to Red Cross rep. Elizabeth Dole by Mikhail Gorbachev) show total deaths at Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenburg, Groß Rosen, Lublin, Mauthausen, Mittelbau, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt (a self-governed, artist camp), and Verschiedene in the 282,077 range, does not imply that a cavalier or despicable schadenfreude attitude is being applied here. 282,077 detention camp deaths from the beginning of 1941 to mid 1945 (~ 4.5 years of detention) is a lot of real suffering, and being confined to a detention camp would also be a bit of a drag, with definite psychological hang-over, no doubt. So I do not think that the so-called “Holocaust deniers†are denying that several million Jewish folks got seriously fucked over by the Nazis in various ways. What they are “denying,†however, is the thin evidentiary basis of elements in the “official†narration such as the systematic, ‘round-the-clock incineration of Jews, which magically happened to somehow finally total up to “six million,†a number based upon a rabbinical reading of Leviticus 25:10. In this modern narration, the ovens of the Nazi concentration camps serve as the instrument by which the eschatologically, prophetically, and ‘historically’ necessary number of “burnt offerings,†or holocaust offerings is made (as a Divine penance) so that the “children of Israel†can finally go home. All of this, of course, revolves around the Hebrew letter vav (v/w), which also is equal to the mystic number of six (6). If you “deny†or do not “believe†in the birth story of Apollo or Hermes, are you also a “Greek-hater� Just wondering.
The “six million†number in the ‘sacred’ Jewish Holocaust narrative is based upon a Kabbalistic numerological interpretation of a verse from the third book of Torah – Leviticus, Chapter 25: Verse 10, and is a numerological figure which was also spoken of by the 12th century Jewish philosopher Moshe ben-Maimon, or Rambam (Maimonides, d. 1204).
“and you shall hallow the fiftieth year. You shall proclaim release (liberty) throughout the land for all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee (Heb: yobel, a “ram’s hornâ€) for you: each of you shall return to his holding and each of you shall return to his family.†(TORAH: Leviticus 25:10)
English translation from: TANAKH: The Holy Scriptures (The New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text). Philadelphia/Jerusalem: The Jewish Publication Society, 1985, p. 196.
“I have personally known people who obviously suffered trauma in Nazi concentration camps.â€
Not believing in the narration of a magical Kabbalistic number of 6,000,000 burnt sacrifices to the Canaanite deity YHWH in German ovens so that the “lost children of Israel†could at last return to their homeland does not mean we are “denying†the very REAL historical reality of the Nazi detention camps, the nighttime Gestapo round-ups (coming soon, once again, to a town with a KBR camp near you), the fear of racist persecution, loss of rights, and the suffering and the horrible deaths from the general typhus plague sweeping Eastern Europe and the southern Russian front. We are not, and do not, cavalierly laugh with glee at the very real and tremendously horrible deaths by starvation in those camps (due to Allied, ‘round-the-clock carpet bombing on all roads and transportation infrastructure, btw). We also do not overlook the ~ 1,000,000 very real and horrible deaths from disease, starvation and exposure suffered by German POWs in the Death Camps of Eisenhower, many of them kept in those camps long after the war was over. Eisenhower should have been tried for war crimes because of those camps, and Gen. Patton himself said as much. Have you ever seen photos of the Ukrainian famine?
When looking at the so-called “Holocaust†as an historical series of events, it must also be taken into account the conditions which prompted the German Reich to do what they did in the first place. If the leadership of the Jewish Agency, or those of the Revisionist, New Zionist Organization (NZO) sitting in Geneva, Basel, or Warsaw decides to “Declare War on Germany†and organize a global boycott on German exports just fourteen years after Chaim Weizmann and other Zionist leaders in Britain economically screwed your country into the ground at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference, and on top of all this, your country is subjected to multiple Communist revolutions and uprisings, all led and organized by Jews such as Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht of the 1919 Spartacist Rising, as well as others within the later Soviet Comintern, take a small guess at how a right-wing nationalist leader of a country is going to react to such perennial provocation and treason from a minority population. The debauched cultural architects of the post WWI Weimar era also did not take into consideration the later cultural backlash from the conservative, and deep, national traditions of German Lutheranism, and in the south, German Catholicism. This same cultural backlash phenomenon is also developing on a massive, CNN-unreported scale in America right now. See, this is why we study ALL sides of History. G. Santayana was 100% correcto. Do you know why the U.S. AIPAC-driven “Hate Speech†legislation didn’t get passed late last year? It wasn’t because of the “9/11 truthers†or the “anti-War†crowd. It was because of non-Zionist Christians rebelling against what they perceive as an illegal, unconstitutional Zionist censorship project being rolled out as a Trojan Horse of “anti-hate†speech. It’s the old, “we gotta censor the internet to ‘save the kids’†stuff. I am with George Carlin on this one, “fuck the goddamned kids,†we have serious political shit to freely discuss. Tell the fucking kids to go play outside. You remember, mom and dad, “outside,†the much more higher resolution world beyond the 17†pixel screen, the world beyond the little wireless gamey phone screen that is turning little Johnny into a mindless fucking gerbil. Is there a “conspiracy†going on here to dumb-down the populace? Oh yes there F*****g is.
“Holocaust revisionism,†i.e. the search for empirical 20th century history backed by real evidence concerning an event that has been exploited for billions of dollars, is not, as you say “an effort to minimize the real suffering of others in order to advance a political agenda.†Yet, all current “official†Israeli and American Zionist propaganda is designed to do exactly that with regards to the 60 year Palestinian genocide. Is it not?
“But do I need to be a holocaust revisionist in order to have a clear understanding of forces behind 9/11?â€
That depends upon your desire to acquire a more complete and accurate (though not necessarily pleasant) assessment of modern history so that you can understand what is going on in the world, or at least in America and the Middle East.
“... I do not believe that it is required to fully understand 9/11, and I DO believe that there is a hateful caricature at its core: the conniving Jew.
“Not that there are no conniving Jews in the world (Larry Silverstein comes to mind!) [Hey, hey, hey, Larry sits on the board of the United Jewish Appeal, dude. Are you one of those anti-charity people? Didn’t you see our ‘no anti-charity people’ rule in the mission statement?] There are plenty, unfortunately, along with conniving individuals of all stripes. They are the rulers of the world and they come in all shapes and sizes. [see: Rev. Pat Hagee, EX-LG, clinically insane]
Glenn, I do not think that “Jews†run the world. Everybody wants to rule the world (see: Mel Brooks’ “History of the World†[Parts I and II] and that Tears for Fears song). My theory is that it is ultimately more of a minority “psychopathic collective†of satanically deluded men and women (with loyal, well paid employees) who seek this full-spectrum dominance. Hey, speaking of psychopaths and pharmaceutical companies, there’s a topic we don’t talk about too much on this site – the global eugenics project and H.G. Wells, etc.
“Based on what you wrote above, I'm assuming now that we agree that the American people and the Israeli people and the Palestinian people and the Pakistani people (etc., etc.) have very little to say in what catastrophic directions their rulers lead them.â€
Absolutely not! Actually I think we all have a lot to say, and if we don’t say anything, they’ll just run us over with armoured bulldozers. You can fight with words and a voice as well. That is why, for a year and a half now, I have been encouraging the Jewish community to separate their “identities†from the Zionist State so that they could say in unison to the nutzo “leadership,†“Stop this madness and drive for empire! We will no longer continue to allow you to turn us into the very Nazis our parents and grandparents fled from!â€
“Finally, you loose me when you start talking about the betrayal of U. S. national security. The United States’ posture toward the world has not been a defensive one for most of its history. Certainly, since the end of WWII, the U.S. “security†apparatus has been waging aggressive warfare all over the globe. Israel has been a junior regional partner in that Imperialist expansion (and in some cases, beyond regional, as in its participation in South African and Central American wars).â€
When I was talking about “U.S. national security†I was referring to the idea of an agency that protects the people of the country from REAL TERRORIST THREATS. But in an “inside†false flag situation, when the wolfowitz is “guarding†the henhouse, so to speak, the hens actually do have a serious, and very real SECURITY problem. ICTS is not going to be providing security for Americans if their own employees are cogs in a false flag terror op to be blamed on Arabs or Persians. You see, on 9/11 there wasn’t any real “Arab terrorist attack.†It was an attack with probable remote avionic installation assistance from “outside†Israeli operatives working under the cover of the same company that will soon be handling SECURITY for Los Angeles International Airport. RING, RING, RING. That is what I meant by “security†and breaches thereof.
Whatever your opinion may be of the U.S., Glenn, it is still treasonous to sell U.S. nuke secrets to fucking Red China when you are in a “cold war†with them. This is a security breach, and a serious one because somebody from “Country A,†who claims to be your friend, and who receives loads of free cash and military gear from you annually, has just sold your nuclear weapons program secrets to YOUR ENEMY. You see, it is a matter of principles and relationships, and trust. All, at this point, archaic concepts I will sadly admit. As far as Israel being a “junior regional partner†in the Middle East, that is another complete myth, one that was crafted by various Zionist ideologues (both Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky), and has been in continuous development now since the end of WWI. It’s a totally old and tired myth that was used to persuade a World Power (ANY world power) to be their big brother ally and supporter against the British or the Arabs. Yitzhak Shamir’s LeHI underground group, with this same myth in tow, tried to sell their military and intelligence services to Mussolini, Hitler, and then Stalin. All three turned them down. These are all historical facts.
On the myth of Israel’s supposed “non-control†over the U.S. legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government, read all the pages and footnotes in Walt and Mearsheimer’s The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, as well as Congressman Paul Findley’s They Dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions Confront Israel’s Lobby. AIPAC (EVERYONE in AIPAC) always says, “We’re just like any other lobby. Why, we’re just like the Farm Lobby!†They are so full of total complete crap. I have seen their entire portfolio of consciously devised lies. At this point, it has all become old, transparently embarrassing, and treasonously tiresome. They need to come up with a new playlist to win in this new instant info world, and shutting down the internet, at this point, is only going to make their situation that much worse, not better. That is why people around here (WTCD) keep writing the phrase, “for the umpteenth time...â€
Here’s another point you are definitely missing, and I’m just pointing this out as a missed angle of perception, Glenn, I’m not trying to dis you, but one of the reasons this site was started, or at least developed into its present form, was because many of us were unable to have an intelligent, uncensored discussion on the issues we discuss here, and their relation to 9/11 and the “War on Terror.†And yeah, how the “Holocaust,†the Hebrew underground in Palestine, and 9/11 hook up is, without a doubt, a bit too complicated and controversial for the new visitors (“the newbiesâ€) who are just now finding out that “their government†(and not EVERYBODY in the government) launched or helped launch an “inside†terror op against them. I do understand the principle of not trying to teach theoretical physics in a 6th grade classroom. So, long story short, WTCD is kind of like a 9/11 Truth (plus the bigger picture) grad school discussion lounge. We talk about Israel (the polity) and operations such as 9/11 in its larger context here because you can’t do that in any kind of complete context at other “official†9/11 “truth†sites. We don’t discuss the Israeli angle on things because we think it’s the only game in town, we talk about it FREELY because no one else seems to want to discuss it. For that reason, a few people have mistaken this site as one that irrationally obsesses over Israel and Zionism. Due to the 100%, by now, proven reality of censorship in the “truth†movement, we have found an info niche. If no other magazine in the world wants to talk exclusively about food and eating, and you start publishing “FOOD†Magazine, are you to be criticized for obsessively talking about food and cooking and recipes and cuisine all the time? Gimme a break. Are you not aware of ‘niche marketing’? Why did Lawrence Ferlinghetti’s City Lights Books in San Francisco only publish Beat literature at its inception? Because no one else would (except for Grove Press). Besides, trying to understand 9/11 without admitting Israel into the picture will only give you an incomplete and still-confused understanding. I still find it sadly amusing when 9/11 truth people keep asking, innocently wondering, and endlessly discussing “Why won’t Noam Chomsky or Amy Goodman talk about 9/11?†If you understand the level of Israeli involvement (and I’m not talking about ALL Israelis here ;) ) in 9/11, it is absolutely no mystery at all why Noam and the other kids won’t talk about 9/11. So we talk about these subjects here, not because we’re singularly obsessed, but because we are filling an important information niche in the part of the modern puzzle that no one wants to put together, and we are trying (as hard and as precisely as we can) to educate people about an important component in the nature of this political reality WITHOUT inciting “racism and hatred.†In other words, it is completely possible to grasp or comprehend this whole history (and I think that all the people on this blog are vivid proof of this), without hating or even disliking “the Jewish people,†or anyone else as “a group.†When we talk about “the Zionists†involved in 9/11, we’re not talking about “The Jews,†and we’re not talking about “The Israeli people†either. We’re talking about a specific list of roughly 150 Zionist devotees, born in Jewish families, all claiming to act in the name of Judaism and “the community.†The names on this list are not all filled in yet, but we definitely have 30 top-level names already in the category of “persons of serious fucking interest.†None of them, of course, were questioned at all by the Zelikow Commission. The 9/11 Commission actually made the Warren Commission look half-way competent.
We talk about these topics on this site because on any other website, you can talk all you want about how fucked up Dubya and President Cheney are, the evils of Paki nukes and the ISI, or CIA heroin and weapons smuggling (I was once a scholar of the Iran-Contra operation. I know all about it, believe me). Also Glenn, I am quite conversant in the history of U.S. imperialism and our variety of interesting atrocities committed around the globe. I know all about the John Negroponte days in Honduras and Guatemala. I’m not going to argue with you about any of that shit. I started my education during Vietnam. We grew up watching that LBJ-Genocide shit every day on the Tee Vee, LIVE and in color with Walter Cronkite. Just because the WTCD contributors don’t talk about every detail of the complete global picture of historical political atrocities and power-groups does not mean we are unaware, or are trying to give them a “Get Out of Jail Free†card. There are a bazillion websites that do a complete, bang up job on all of that, but they always seem to shy away from any full discussion of that other GIANT NUCLEAR ARMED ELEPHANT in the room, always referred to in hushed tones as “Country A.†When do you think Israel is going to get around to signing that ol’ International Nuclear Non-Proliferation Agreement, like Iran did? When do you think Israel will ever honor even one UN agreement or international agreement? The modern day regime in Israel, however you want to shake it and bake it, is a VERY BIG and VERY REAL international problem with regards to law and human rights. GOOGLE IT! It is not “anti-Semitism.†It is a modern historical FACT, and good Jewish people, and all good people know this. The Nooz just don’t tell you.
There is, and always has been, a moral voice in the real Jewish community that has always opposed this militant folly of the minority, power drunk leadership, and that voice of peace and reason, and compassion, has been continuously RAISED since the time of the Prophet Isaiah’s cursing the crazed plans of King Hezekiah of the Kingdom of Judah who decided to join an Egyptian-Phoenician alliance against kings Sargon II and Sennacherib of the Assyrian Empire, “Rulers of the Four Corners of the World.†Take a guess who took the spear-point of mass suffering in this scenario when the massive Assyrian army sacked Jerusalem in 701 BCE? That’s correcto, the “Jewish masses.†Almost every song on this Hebraic 331/3 LP has nearly the same pattern and beat. A few (as in an unelected minority) crazed zio-nationalists decide to slaughter, during a truce, 90 Roman soldiers, for example, along with their diplomatic (i.e. conventionally ‘protected’) envoys of peace and negotiation, and then we always end up at the end of the song with ALL the people in Jerusalem, as a motific example, getting “put to the sword.†Oh yeah, and then there’s always that tambourine guy at the end. Please have a look at the clear patterns of this history as found on this blog in “Wired for Terror†Part Two A,†and you’ll see exactly what I am talking about.
Peace, my brother.
snippet on Cole by his slightly less insane critics...
David Cole. The most paradoxical of all the revisionists is the 25- year old Jew (his mother "was raised as a secular Jew" and his father "was raised Orthodox in London during the Blitz") who proudly displays his heritage while simultaneously denying its most significant modern historical event. As he says (1994), he is "damned if I do and damned if I don't. That is, if I don't mention the Judaism I will be accused of being ashamed. If I mention it up front I will be accused of exploiting it." For his views he was physically beaten at UCLA in a debate on the Holocaust; he has received regular death threats from "a small group of people that genuinely hate me with a passion;" and the JDL, the ADL, and Jewish organizations in general "are a little harder on me because I am Jewish." He has been called a self-hating Jew, anti-Semitic, a race traitor, and compared to Hitler, Hussein, and Arafat in an editorial in The Jewish News. Though Cole's personality is affable and his attitude sanguine, he sees himself as a rebel in search of a cause. Where the other revisionists are political and/or racial ideologues, Cole's interests run at a deeper level. He is a meta-ideologue--an existentialist on a quest to understand how ideologues invent their realities. In the process, Cole has joined every conceivable organization, including the Revolutionary Communist Party, the Workers World Party, the John Birchers, Lyndon LaRouchers, the Libertarians, the atheists, the humanists, and yes, even the Skeptics Society. Revisionism, then, is just one in a long line of ideologies that has fascinated Cole since he was expelled from Hamilton High.
With no college background, and a parental stipend for self- education, Cole's personal library houses thousands of volumes, including a considerable Holocaust section. He knows his subject and, as he says, can "debate the facts until the cows come home." Where other fringe claims only held his attention for a few months to a year, the Holocaust "is more about real physical things than some abstract concept that requires faith. We are talking about something for which much of the evidence still exists." And much of that physical evidence has been filmed by Cole on a fact-finding mission over the summer of 1992, financed by revisionist Bradley Smith. "I figured I needed $15,000 to $20,000, and Bradley set to work--it took him about a month and a half to raise that amount." Cole's stated goal in his research (discussed in detail later) "is to try to move revisionism away from the fringe and into the mainstream." To do so he has tried to reach professional historians, but has shot himself in the foot by associating so closely with revisionists, despite his claim to the contrary:
"I want to get people who are not right-wingers or neo-Nazis. Right now it is in a very dangerous position because there is a vacuum created by mainstream historians denouncing revisionism. The vacuum has been filled with the likes of Ernst Zuendel. Zuendel is a very likable human being, but he is a fascist and he is not the person I would like to see recognized as the world's leading Holocaust revisionist."
But there is another side to Cole that goes beyond intellectual curiosity. He likes to stir things up, and not just for historians. Cole, for example, might attend a revisionist social event where white supremacists will be present, with an African-American date, "just to watch them squirm and stare." Even though he disagrees mightily with many revisionists' beliefs and most of their politics, he will introduce himself to the media as a "revisionist" knowing it will draw scorn and sometimes physical abuse. He wants his video footage to be studied by professional scholars (and he has offered it to his Israeli contact), but will probably end up editing it down to a marketable product to be sold through the IHR and their right-wing mailing list, as he did his first video of Auschwitz, which sold over 30,000 copies.
What is an outsider like Cole to do? He is angry that he has been locked out by historians who, he says, "are not gods, are not religious figures, and are not priests. We have a right to ask them for further explanations. I am not ashamed to ask the questions I am asking." One wonders, however, why such questions are being asked?
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-4.html
Funny how Skeptic Magazine and Michael Shermer seem to pop up everywhere, eh? I guess they've been in "the biz" longer than Popular Mechanics...
"but why even ask these questions?"
I think is the kernel here that needs to be maginified and examined. The implication with both the holocaust and 9/11 is of course that you should WANT to believe the official stories whetehr they are true or not because they portray the victory of good over evil and contain wonderful lessons and warnings about opposing evil.
If you suspect a fraud, you should keep quiet about it because while the fraud itself may be morally wrong, the intention is (supposedly) good--to motivate people to take on a dangerous trend of globalized ideological terrorism.
To illustrate how absurd this is, suppose someone were to say--"well sure the Protocols are fake, but you shouldn't expose that fact because it serves to motivate people against the real threat of conspiracies among shadowy anti-democratic groups like international bankers. I really have to wonder at the motives of someone who questions their legitimacy!"
The people who take this approach with 9/11 or the holocaust are in a very real sense Straussians, or better yet Machiavellians. I know the type--they abound at Harvard. They are those who believe themselves to be better than the rabble, who dismiss the masses as hopelessly flawed, who are happy to see the vast majority of their fellow humans waste away on a diet of junk food and infotainment, and derive most of their own self-worth from thinking of how much better they are than these heathen around them. They have to live in denial of the fact that the rabble is deliberately dumbed down to give them their privileged position, otherwise it would seem like cheating--they could not believe themselves to be innately better, which is what they desperately crave--to be part of an exclusive aristocracy, a club which doesn't let "just anyone" in.
When someone calls their BS out it is an affront to everything they hold dear, and if they realize the person doing the calling out is someone who they can't manipulate, i.e. proof of the flaseness of their high impression of themselves, they may try to "recruit" that person by suggesting to them that they should be OK with lying to the masses because "hey, people like us, good smart people, have to protect ourselves from the savages, don't you see? And you can make MONEY off of them! Just shut up and play along damnit? Why WON'T you? You must be a racist! That's it! I mean, surely there aren't people who actually live by moral principles that can't be compromised? I mean, not SMART people who can figure out all of our tricks, anyway... "
And that class of people, who come in all flavors, are the ones who maintain the myths alive and fight against those who would enlighten "the rabble". Call them the priest class, the intellectual elites, the rulers, the directors, whatever you want. The rot of their souls is the problem--but even they are victims--of their own failings and insecurities. No one is born a Hitler or a Silverstein or a Sharon--they learn and fail their way to becoming it, and never encounter someone who can set them straight. A system that thrives on deceit will, over time, evolve ways to punish those who are too honest for the system's good.
The biggest question I have is whether this corrupt system simply evolves by natural selection or whether it reflects intelligent design. I suspect, as usual, a little of both. Or a lot of both.
I once asked C455 if I could borrow her uterus...
...so that I might have your child, Laz. She turned me down, so instead I will just have to promise to bake you a pie when this is all behind us. Thanks as ever for gracing this site with so much thoughtful wisdom. This in particular deserves a pulitzer, or better yet, a real prize:
We talk about Israel (the polity) and operations such as 9/11 in its larger context here because you can’t do that in any kind of complete context at other “official†9/11 “truth†sites. We don’t discuss the Israeli angle on things because we think it’s the only game in town, we talk about it FREELY because no one else seems to want to discuss it. For that reason, a few people have mistaken this site as one that irrationally obsesses over Israel and Zionism. Due to the 100%, by now, proven reality of censorship in the “truth†movement, we have found an info niche. If no other magazine in the world wants to talk exclusively about food and eating, and you start publishing “FOOD†Magazine, are you to be criticized for obsessively talking about food and cooking and recipes and cuisine all the time?
Sometimes when you're in the middle of it all (whatever it all is) it is hard to be clear about where you're coming from. In other words, it isn't always easy for me to set aside my emotions and coolly defend what we do here as well as you just did and for that I'm extremely grateful, friend!
Shermer is such a
Shermer is such a weasel. always with that know it all smirk of his while he peddles lies and claims to be a "skeptic", whatever that even means to him. i seriously hate him more than just about any other media personality ive ever seen. no hyperbole.
Weird, some of the comments & replies aren't matching up.
Would be very confusing for the unfamiliar.