Was Steven Jones Deliberately Sabotaging the AE911Truth Press Conference With Talk of Manmade Earthquakes?

gretavo's picture

The case could well be made. While I don't doubt that research has probably been done into provoking earthquakes through strategic explosions, and that Haiti may have been a rehearsal for a more significant event, perhaps targeting Iran or others, this was not the time or place to bring it up, imho. I say this with the full awareness that many people think we are wrong to discuss the holocaust and even the moon landing as possibly staged/exaggerated events, but the difference as I see it is we do not do it in the middle of an event that the entire truth movement is pinning its hopes on and being asked to promote heavily. It seems we have tolerate Jones and his idiosyncracies for a long ime because he had been one of the only voices in the wilderness. It may well be time to disavow him, especially if he expands his interest in manmade weather and other natural phenomena into the realm of chemtrails, which we have also seen rearing its head on sites like 9/11blogger from certain users. We can be pretty certain that governments have throughout history spent time and money on some pretty harebrained schemes because, well, you never know, but to treat each and every one of those possible projects as definitively existing in serious useful forms with no good science or evidence to back up the claim is a pretty obvious example of perfidious harm of a cause through faulty arguments, and Jones with his "Jesus in America" research seems like a prime suspect for being a source of such perfidious harm.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
willyloman's picture

uh.... yes

Remember me? Yes, Jones is and has been undermining us for a while now.

1. he started off with Morgan Reynolds and the "ray beams from space lady"
2. when I ask him to test for explosive residue he had to "ask Gregg Roberts" for permission... Gregg Roberts who started off with Jim Hoffman
3. "thermite turned into thermate turned into super thermite turned into hyperbaric thermite bombs turned into nanothermite and then he said it could have been "100 tons" of electric matches
4. worked for the Department of Energy
5. worked at Los Alamos
6. "forced" to take early retirement (gave him time to "lead" the Truth movement over the cliff) from BYU for writing a paper on 911 YET two of his co-authors on this new paper BOTH STILL work for BYU... how does that compute?
7. lied directly to me about not knowing how to test for residual trace signatures of high explosives in Ground Zero Dust (and I have the emails to prove it)
8. Gregg Roberts zipped over to AE911Truth so they could undermine that credibility.... and guess what happens? Jones comes out and talks about earthquake weapons at their big press conference.

so, yeah, Jones did it on purpose.

http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/steven-jones-speculating-the-...

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

willyloman's picture

and let me add this just for the fun of it...

Talking about harebrained schemes...

Seen "Men who stare at Goats" yet? Theres a scene in there with a guy in this Fort Bragg program (the Jedi Warriors") who is convinced he can concentrate real hard and vibrate his molecules to the point where he can run through walls.

He concentrates... and tries to run through a wall. Results are as expected.

True story. In 2003, that man was interviewed and he still believes it, maybe he still believes it today. I don't know. But he is on record and video tape talking about it.

That man is the first person featured on Patriots for 911 Truth, Major General Albert N. Stubblebine III

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

willyloman's picture

there might be a bright side. Jon Gold has quit again

from my site

"This has provided longtime LIHOPY HARPYJon Gold with all the justification he needs to turn his back on even more evidence in our arsenal and the issue of controlled demolition altogether. Forget Richard Gage, forget all that other stuff, Steven Jones believes in earthquake guns… so the Muslims MUST have done it!

"Jones’ actions mean nothing to me. I just won’t promote him anymore or any Controlled Demolition advocates anymore. It’s really that simple." Jon Gold

"He was wrong to play with the VERY thin thread of credibility the 9/11 Truth cause has left after years of having to deal with proponents of “batshit crazy” theories. He was wrong, and I’m simply not going to promote CD anymore. At all …" Jon Gold

"it's wrong. wrooooong. wroooOOoong." Cartman

“If I can’t be the captain,I’m taking my ball and going home.” JG . There you go, Jon. That’s a what a real independent investigator does. Nice work (you too Steven, nice work) by the way, I found a link to that comment at… Screwloosechange… see how this shit works?"

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

Zorglub's picture

With agents like these, we don't need activists.

The problem is that Steven Jones may very well be right on that one. Seismic weapons do exist and the US (and Russia) have them.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article163729.html

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2010/01/general-keen-in-haiti-when-quake-s...

ANYBODY that's got some prominence in the truth movement WILL at one point or another be called disinfo "deliberately trying to sabotage the movement" by someone. I'm sure Gretavo is branded as such by some. Such agents of course do exist and they are lots of them but to accuse S.J. on such flimsy grounds borders on the paranoia.

BTW, if jones really is an agent, I would say we need more of such agents. He was the first professional to expose the CD and as such he did boost tremendously the movement's credibility, regardless of his motives.

With agents like these we don't need activists.

gretavo's picture

you're missing the point

I'm not saying that we should let what other people think determine what we find to be worth investigating--I'm saying that Jones' actions would seem to indicate either a total lack of common sense in terms of appropriate times and places for things OR a deliberate attempt at sabotage of the type that has been so common in the truth movement (pretend to be very helpful so that when you do stupid shit people won't call you out on it.) A regular conference or convention where people are invited to speak on whatever interests them would have been an appropriate venue for Jones to discuss this subject. The occasion of a press conference where the focus should be razor sharp on simple provable facts is so clearly not the time or place to make this kind of spectacle. And to those who say that "oh, it wasn't during the actual press conference"--who cares? It was still stupid and I see no reason to give SJ the benefit of the doubt at this point. And that goes for anyone else who thinks that having earned a bit of credibility based on reasonable and good work they will not be jettisoned when they outlive their usefulness.

willyloman's picture

this is pretty much the overall take i keep reading

... all over the net.

"If Jones wants to speculate about man-made earthquakes as part of some new world order plot to capture the world’s oil supplies, he should say so elsewhere and refrain from sticking it up the 911 Truth Movement’s arse. dearth"

"Either many prominent "leaders" of this movement are completely clueless or the COINTELPRO operation being waged against us is more sophisticated than I originally thought.

I'm so sick of this shit. "

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

LeftWright's picture

A few facts may help here

Since I was in the room all day long as part of the 911tv.org crew recording the event and feeding those broadcasting it, let me provide you with a few facts.

1) Dr. Jones abbreviated talk on man made earthquakes took place hours after the press conference ended and was not part of the official program in any way, shape or form. His talk took place after the AE911Truth luncheon had ended.

2) The AE911Truth folks were not in the room for this talk, they were in another room one floor below having their own mini-strategy meeting at the time.

3) Dr. Jones repeatedly made qualifying statements during his presentation noting the speculative nature of his hypothesis based on very incomplete data and his relative lack of expertise in geophysics and seismology.

4) While 911tv did make a high quality recording of the talk, this was for Dr. Jones own use, was not fed to anyone else or streamed on the web by us. The live stream was done by others using all their own equipment.

While I (and others there) think it most unfortunate that he chose this time and place to make a clearly not ready for prime time presentation of a highly speculative working hypothesis, this does not change the real science behind his nanothermite work with others. Dr. Jones is a scientist and clearly does not think in conservative terms regarding the public perception of the movement. Where he sees anomalies, as he did with the WTC, he starts to dig and look for possible explanations. It is just very unfortunate that he felt compelled to share this very speculative working hypothesis with everyone on the internet.

The press conference went off extraordinarily well from a technical standpoint and was standing room only.

Hopefully, we can focus most of our energy on leveraging this milestone event to grow the movement, further professionalize it and put a few big cracks the media firewall on this seminal issue.

If anyone has any questions regarding this or the press conference, feel free to ask.

The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.

willyloman's picture

While I could easily have a chat with you about....

... the "real science" behind Jones' "nanothermite" paper (I would probably start with...

1. Jones admitting several times since publication and even IN THE PAPER ITSELF that what they found may only be thermite from an "electric match"

2. they did not know at the time of publishing the paper if in fact this material was a high explosive or a low explosive or a low explosive (big difference)

3. Jones and Frank Legge have both admitted that they don't know if this stuff could have any kind of shattering effect at all

4. Jones puts the amount of the UNEXPLODED material at just under 100 tons and Harrit has actually said in a Russia Today interview that there were "hundreds and hundreds" of tons of the stuff (that's quite a lot of "unreacted material" wouldn't you say?)

but that isn't really the issue right now.

What is at issue is a man who clearly understands the scientific process and the need to adhere to the standards of that process in order to maintain credibility.

I'll give you an example; back in the day, when Jones worked for the Department of Energy, he submarined the Pons Fliechman report. He did so because they found out he had submitted a rebutal paper on behalf of the Department of Energy that was contradicting their findings.

So what they did was hold a PRESS CONFERENCE the day before their paper officially came out. This was outside the norms of the scientific process for publication and review. Jones and many others attacked them for doing this. For essentially holding a press conference on "unsupported" material.

So, you can make light of it if you wish, but all you have to do is read a few websites and you will know the damage that is being done out there.

Take TruthAction for instance. Weren't you just involved in a little Chat with Jon Gold? Do you know that ScrewLooseChange is already laughing about Gold quiting the "CD" movement... again...?

(oh. and by the way. everything I have said on this thread and the other one, is a "fact"...so maybe you will find them helpful as well)

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

it may not change the science...

But it affects his own credibility--no matter whether he may be right or not. The critics who will use this to ignore the actual gist of the AE press conference don't care if he's right or not. Or if the science in the nanothermite study is right. They will simply imply, probably to a good reception, that Jones never met a kooky theory (Jesus in America comes to mind) that he didn't like, and that all the nanothermite work depends on his credibility as the person who obtained the samples studied. The movement does not at this point have any need for Steven Jones.

willyloman's picture

exactly

"The movement does not at this point have any need for Steven Jones."

and if I could add... the theory of the controlled demolition of the Twin Towers and Building 7 is in no way dependent on Steven Jones or his nanothermite study.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

just watched the nanothermite DVD

DVD here

will try to give a more thorough review later, but FYI, WL, Jones does make it clear that nanothermite was not necessarily the only type of explosive used--specifically he mentions C4 and HMX.  The superthermite matches you have poo-pooed several times are actually significant because they are one way, to use an electric current to set off other explosives (the electric current ignites the superthermite match which in turn detonates another explosive.  This way you could use a relatively insensitive explosive that would not be set off by the plane impacts or fire, and trigger their detonation (via a superthermite match) through radio signals ('wireless' detonation is probablyless prone to a chain reaction than det cord...)  I'm still concerned about the manmade earthquake stuff but the nanothermite video, for all its production flaws, was worth watching.

gretavo's picture

oh, and...

Towards the end of Jones' talk on the Nanothemrite DVD, he shows a powerpoint slide with some bullet points on "what you can do". The last of these, which he seems to half jokingly say "and JUST IN CASE" about is "Food Storage". I found the term curious so I just googled it and found this among the results:

http://www.providentliving.org/channel/1,11677,1706-1,00.html

Reminded me of a brief email exchange I had years ago (prob around 2003) with Jones where he seemed to say that he believed we were living in the "end times", by quoting the bible to the effect of the end times being a time of profound deception... I'm inclined to believe that Jones is sincere but slightly impaired by his faith. When asked where nanothermite might have been manufactured, he hemmed and hawed a bit but finally offered "Russia, Israel, China..." which he described as "technologically advanced nations or some such. He may sincerely believe that Israel did it, and that this is all a part of end times prophecy... yikes!

kate of the kiosk's picture

where nanothermite might have been manufactured/food storage

yeah...but DRG also hems and haws on one of these interviews but then said the U.S. government has plenty of capably clandestine entities...steers clear of Jews and Israel. 

 "...seemed to say that he believed we were living in the "end times", by quoting the bible to the effect of the end times being a time of profound deception... I'm inclined to believe that Jones is sincere but slightly impaired by his faith..."

yeah...I think they both are operating in an end-times mindset stemming from process theology and mormon theology. 

 food storage -- i believe he alluded to this in the KB interview also.

 

 

casseia's picture

Process theology is not an end-times thing.

I'm pretty sure DRG doesn't subscribe to any big end times scenarios.

kate of the kiosk's picture

well

you are probably right, C. from his "Christian Faith and the Truth about 911" it is more  "the forces of evil are in control" "evil empire" kind of thing...go speak and spread the word in your churches...that was the command from DRG.

kate of the kiosk's picture

just listened to

www.noliesradio.org

archives of 2/19 press conference.  encourage all to do same.

willyloman's picture

I know what electric matches are...

they are about the size of a wooden match.

now, if Jones is correct, and his revised estimate of how much "unexploded" or "unreacted" is correct, at 3 tons (they started off with "10 tons" and Harrit once said "hundreds of tons") then that means Jones is saying he found 6,000 pounds of unreacted thermite from electric matches.

an electric match is the size of a wooden match, and he says he may have found 6,000 lbs of just the matchhead?

A scientist coming to that conclusion doesn't strike you as odd?

And just for the record, most high explosives used in the demotlion industry aren't ignited by an electric match. As displayed in the Umar Fizzlepants show, PETN will burn but not explode. That's why they have what's called blasting caps. They need a concussion wave to trigger the explosive result. Electric matches are used alot in fireworks, pyrotechnics, stuff like that. There are some applications for them in demo industry, but not a great deal.

Not 6,000 lbs of em. and certainly not 6,000 lbs of them left over AFTER a massive controlled demolition (if 6,000lbs were still lying around, of just the matches, how many pounds actually went off and how many pounds of the explosive were used?)

So, that is why I "poo pooed" the electric match hypothesis, I did alot of research on demolitions and then I thought it through.

Now if you want to believe Jones found 6,000lbs worth of electric matchheads, you be my guest, but to me, it just doesn't make sense.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

you're twisting everything he says

He made it pretty clear that he had no idea what the nanothermite was used for, just ideas. And a superthermite "match" does not just ignite a flame, it explodes and causes that concussive wave necessary to detonate another explosive, which he said could well have been C4 or HMX. Or even more nanothermite, which can also be cast into a shaped charge, the kind used to cut through steel columns. You couldn't have used det cord (PETN) connected to a blasting cap in the towers because the fire might have ignited it early. An electric match activated via radio signals would have been the way to go, and the large amount of unignited material may indicate that instead of, or in addition to, C4 and/or HMX, some kind of nanothermite was also used in large quantities.

willyloman's picture

what he said specifically is that...

... is what they found, the nanothermite, may have been the electic matches...

... he said he found 3 tons of it, unreacted

now, how am i "twisting" what he said?

3 tons (he started off with 10 tons remember) of unlit electric match heads. 6,000 lbs of unlit match heads, Gretavo...

how did I "twist" that?

you might also take a closer look at the part of the Jones/Harrit paper that says they couldn't determine if the material they tested burned fast enough to create a shock wave.

You might also take a look at Frank Legges many converstaions since (he was one of the authors) where he clearly states that niether he NOR Jones has ever said that nanothermite could have created a shock wave that pulverized the concrete floor systems.

You might also take a look at the part of the nanothermite paper that states that what they found may just be an electric match so they SUGGESTED in the paper that someone test for trace residuals of high explosives...

yet, Jones, for some reason will not run those tests.

Now if you would like to tell me how you know his nantothermite is a high explosive when the paper says otherwise and Jones and Legge have since said otherwise, be my guest. Till then, I read the paper and their statements since... I am not the one "twisting" what they say or said.

Or, to be more specific, I am not the one hearing what I want to hear in his statements.

(focus on how Jones talks about how much "energy" is released in his experiment on the material. He compares it to other explosive material and says it is higher. So the layman thinks that means it must be even more explosive than them... "energy release" is a measure of HEAT... SPEED of the burn is a measure of explosive concusion. THAT is what determines a HIGH or a LOW explosive... and that is what determines whether or not nanothermite could have had any effect on the Twin towers. Also note he never in his paper puts the most commonly used high explosive on that chart, PETN. Why? because where thermite burns at a temp of about 4,500 deg f. PETN gets up to over 7,050 deg f. Much hotter, much more energy released, and where thermite burns at a rate of about 2,000mps PETN burns at a rate of about 8,000mps.)

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

he also said

that the thin chips may have been part of a larger, thicker mass, which you conveniently didn't seem to hear. instead you pretend that Jones is saying that the estimated three tons of unreacted nanothermite all came from electric matches. what the analysis of the red gray chips shows is that there was at least SOME type of nanothermite used, in SOME way. if there is SOME, there may well have been SOME OTHER. you seem to be deliberately distorting this, why I can only speculate of course. perhaps to promote your pet (PETN) theory, which seems to have the problem that PETN would ignite in fire--or am i wrong?

willyloman's picture

Ignite? Yes... Explode? No... remember Umar?

PETN would ignite under a fire condition, like Umar Fizzlepants shows us.

It would slowly burn.

PETN and most high explosives need a concusion wave to detonate... to explode.

did we see any det cord burn during the first 15 minutes of jet fuel induced fires? sure, possibly.

but then again, so would your nanothermite "thicker mass" now wouldn't it?

Do you know what "pet PETN theory" I am promoting? Do I sell books? Do I even have ads on my website? no.

My intention is to get someone, anyone to do what every crime scene investigator does in a case like this.

test for residues of high explosives.

that's the one thing Jones refuses to do.

and you think I am the enemy?

If this is controlled demolition (which it is) how am I the enemy when all I am saying is lets test for the most commonly used high explosvies used in the history of controlled demolition?

That's not my "pet" theory. That is common sense. and it's also standard investigative proceedure in cases like this.

if the most obvious and most probable turns out to be a negative result, then you start looking at the improbable and the exotic. right?

it's not me who is "twisting" the logic here. I wish you could understand that while the "nanothermite"/electric match guy starts talking about earthquake guns.

but to answer your question, PETN would burn in the fire... just like the "nanothermite" would.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

Umar Fizzipants did not light his PETN

he injected it with some kind of liquid... in any case, why do you get so upset and combative about all of this? are you suggesting that the nanothermite chips were planted in the WTC dust to mislead us? and do you think it really matters WHAT exactly was used when we know beyond question that SOMEthing explosive was used? and that the more people know this the better the chances that all these tests WILL be done? are you just trying to get across that Jones et al shouldn't be trusted implicitly? are you saying that nanotehrmite COULD NOT have been used?

gretavo's picture

OT...

I want that subject line put on a tee shirt... "Umar Fizzipants did not light his PETN"

kate of the kiosk's picture

haha and kevin ryan

funny guy our gretavo

and Ryan posted this little article by John Gartner MIT on FB

 

http://www.technologyreview.com/NanoTech/14105/?a=f

willyloman's picture

let me clarify

Did I suggest you were deliberately misleading people and "twisting" all of someones words? Did I use means like this to accuse someone on this thread?

"you seem to be deliberately distorting this, why I can only speculate of course"

So, am I the "combative" one? no.

Do you think I am right when I suggest someone test for other explosive residues in that dust? you agree with that much, or is suggesting I am serving some other purpose more important than looking at the posible validity of my claim?

(the liquid you refer to was injected into the compound which caused a chemical reaction which then BURNED and IGNITED the PETN which also BURNED... as reported by people on the plane ie... "flames were put out". Had it EXPLODED then the Umar Fizzlepants story would have had a totally different ending. You can at least admit that too, right?)

Not only am I saying that Jones should not be trusted, like you said above, I am saying that he is deliberately misleading the truth movement and has been since his involvement.

Oh yeah, like Frank Legge has said several times, I too am saying that the nanothermite paper Harrit and Jones and Legge wrote doesn't in fact say that "nanothermite" could have demoed those towers. Could not have produced a shock wave needed to break up concrete floor systems and could not have burned through 5" thick steel columns at a rate needed to clear out 10 floors per second.

could there have been electric matches used? possibly. Would there be so much of the material left after the demo? no.

YES... YES... and YES... to this question of yours "and that the more people know this the better the chances that all these tests WILL be done?"

YES... YES.... and once again... yes.

does it matter what was used? yes. Does it matter which bullet you find at a crime scene? does it matter if it is a real bullet or a plastic BB? yes, in any scientific investigation, of course it matters.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

again, what is your point?

Did someone plant nanothermite in the towers? In the dust? And what would that accomplish if any idiot can tell the buildings are blowing up and that it could not have resulted from plane impacts and fires alone?

willyloman's picture

it would

keep any grass roots investigation from testing for explosive residue and thus having real proof of the use of high explosives in the demolion of the towers.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

kate of the kiosk's picture

hmm

 

succinct 

yet, so, who would have been capable of wiring the towers with "high explosives"?

and what would have prevented others beside Jones from getting samples of residue?

willyloman's picture

The security company did a "rewiring" and cable upgrade

prior to 911. Det cord is colorful and looks just like a cat-5 cable. Workers could have been pulling that stuff all day long in an active office envirnment, and no one would have known the difference.

many people have samples of that dust. But unfortunately, like Jones pointed out during the press conference, they keep sending their samples... to him.

Gage got a sample that day and ... handed it over to Jones. Thats the sample he held up during the press conference.

If you want to know what I am trying to do, this new post of mine sums it up very succinctly.

http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/why-doesnt-dr-jones-test-for-...

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

what security company?

and what is your source for the rewiring and cable upgrade they allegedly did?

willyloman's picture

several place mentioned this info...

"The reason: the Port Authority was performing a cabling upgrade to increase the WTC’s computer bandwidth."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&add...

Part of Stratesec's 1996 8.3 million dollar contract was reworking the entire closed circuit system. That involved running cable everywhere. Stratesec was the company partly owned by Marvin Bush, I think. and was Wirt Walker also on the board of directors?

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a1096stratesec#a1096strat...

You can even find confirmation on "debunker sites"...

"The first line here talks about “handling security”, the second mentions “designing a system” though, and the “not quite completed” suggests they were working on a particular task rather than “running security” for the whole complex."

The "project" they were working on was revamping the security system with faster cables and more cameras and so forth.

http://www.911myths.com/html/stratesec.html

even the debunkers acknowledge the work was being done. I did find a site that dealt with specific job contracts surrounding 911 once. I was looking up the company that did the retrofit of the one section of the pentagon that got hit, and they had a section on the towers. They also mentioned the project but I will have to go find that link.

"The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a ``completion contract" to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center ``up to the day the buildings fell down."

It also had a three-year contract to maintain electronic security systems at Dulles Airport, according to a Dulles contracting official. Securacom/Stratesec also handled some security for United Airlines in the 1990s, according to McDaniel, but it had been completed before his arriving on the board in 1998."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm

the security equipment upgrade contract is pretty well established.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

blame Bushes, blame Arabs...

Victor Thorn's article at DemUnderground mentions the Port Authority doing a cabling upgrade for bandwidth--this was the alleged work done the weekend before, reported by Scott Forbes of Fiduciary Trust.  This was not done by Securacom/Stratasec as far as I can see.  Securacom/Stratasec seems to have had a contract to design the electronic security layout awarded in 1996.  Are you suggesting PETN was installed 5 years before the demolition?  Not likely.  No, this looks like more "blame the Bushes, blame Arabs" nonsense.

 

From Common Dreams:

Marvin Bush joined Securacom when it was capitalized by the Kuwait-American Corporation, a private investment firm in D.C. that was the security company's major investor, sometimes holding a controlling interest. Marvin Bush has not responded to telephone calls and e-mails for comment.

KuwAm has been linked to the Bush family financially since the Gulf War. One of its principals and a member of the Kuwaiti royal family, Mishal Yousef Saud al Sabah, served on the board of Stratesec.

The managing director at KuwAm, Wirt D. Walker III, was also a principal at Stratesec, and Walker, Marvin Bush and al Sabah are listed in SEC filings as significant shareholders in both companies during that period.

Marvin Bush's last year on the board at Stratesec coincided with his first year on the board of HCC Insurance, formerly Houston Casualty Co., one of the insurance carriers for the WTC. He left the HCC board in November 2002.

But none of these connections has been looked at during the extensive investigations since 9/11. McDaniel says principals and other personnel at Stratesec have not been questioned or debriefed by the FBI or other investigators. Walker declined to answer the same question regarding KuwAm, referring to the public record.

Walker is also chairman and CEO of Aviation General, a Tulsa, Okla.-based aviation company with two subsidiaries. SEC filings also show al Sabah as a principal and shareholder in Aviation General, which was recently delisted by the Nasdaq. Stratesec was delisted by the American Stock Exchange in October 2002.

The suite in which Marvin Bush was annually re-elected, according to public records, is located in the Watergate in space leased to the Saudi government. The company now holds shareholder meetings in space leased by the Kuwaiti government there. The White House has not responded to various requests for comment.

Speaking of the Watergate, Riggs National Bank, where Saudi Princess Al-Faisal had her ``Saudi money trail" bank account, has as one of its executives Jonathan Bush, an uncle of the president. The public has not learned whether Riggs - which services 95 percent of Washington's foreign embassies - will be turning over records relating to Saudi finance.

 

From 911myths:

E-J Electric Installation Co., the country's oldest independent electrical contractor, won a $28 million contract in 1996 to tighten security at the World Trade Center. The Long Island City, N.Y.-based contractor installed 2 million feet of fiber-optic cable, hundreds of security cameras, access control and 110 turnstiles, including systems integration. The parking garage also became restricted after a terrorist drove a van, containing a bomb, into the underground parking garage in 1993.
http://september11.ceenews.com/ar/electric_towering_security_2/index.htm

So the Port Authority naturally wanted to improve WTC security after the 1993 bomb. It took them a while, but finally they began to spend money in 1996, and E J Electric were the major contractor. Securacom, got a share as well, but not for very long:

Securacom got the $8.3 million World Trade Center security contract in October 1996 and received about $9.2 million from the WTC job from 1996 (a quarter of its revenues that year) to 1998. But in 1998, the company was "excused from the project" because it could not fulfill the work, according to former manager Al Weinstein, and the electronic security work at the WTC was taken over by EJ Electric, a larger contractor.
http://www.washingtonspectator.com/articles/20050215bushes_3.cfm

If this is correct, then Securacom’s interest in the WTC ended in 1998, which you might have expected Dr Griffin to tell you. But is it true? There is one article that suggests otherwise:

According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down."...

Barry McDaniel, CEO of the company since January 2002, declines on security grounds to give specific details about work the company did at the World Trade Center. According to McDaniel, the contract was ongoing (a "completion contract"), and "not quite completed when the Center went down." The company designed a system, but &endash; as he points out -- obviously that "didn't have anything to do with planes flying into buildings."...
http://www.populist.com/03.02.burns.html

The first line here talks about “handling security”, the second mentions “designing a system” though, and the “not quite completed” suggests they were working on a particular task rather than “running security” for the whole complex.

willyloman's picture

ah, right.

I suggest testing for the most powerful and commonly used high explosive in controlled demolition... because what? I'm disinfo?

Is that what you're suggesting?

They were working on this project. It actually changed hands two years prior to 911. Another company took over.

Ah, I get it... the Mossad doesn't own CDI... is that it?

I'm disinfo if I suggest someone had something to do with this scheme ... that wasn't a zionist? Is that what your saying?

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

willyloman's picture

Kevin Ryan has recently published this info....

"The contractors responsible for installation of the system throughout much of the towers were Electronic Systems Associates and E.J. Electric Installation, both of New York."

"Electronic Systems Associates (ESA) was a division of Syska & Hennessey (S&H). S&H was an engineering firm whose largest projects in the past included serving as structural engineers for the United Nations building, WTC building 7, and King Saud University in Saudi Arabia. S&H had offices in Saudi Arabia, and before the Shah was ousted they had offices in Iran. [68] In 1997, the firm was retained as the prime contractor to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Employees of ESA reported having worked on projects for clients such as The Pentagon, The Union Bank of Switzerland, March & McLennan and Hearst Publishing"

"On September 11th 2001, E.J. Electric had an office in the south tower and had nine electricians on-site, including a man on top of the tower before the first strike. E.J. also had a team in the basement."

http://www.puppetgov.com/2009/08/13/uq-wire-kevin-ryan-911-essay-part-2/

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

a-HA! more links to Arabs!

So what has Securacom to do with it? You said the "security company did wiring". You apparently meant to say, "some company in New York called E.J. Electric, which btw had offices in Saudi Arabia, did the wiring". Apparently Dunkin Donuts was operating in the WTC up until 9/11--in fact the donut makers were THERE THAT MORNING. None of this proves anything, seems more likely to be the groundwork for some Islamophobia/EvilBushes flavored limited hangout, which strongly suggests it is being oorchestrated by Zionists.

willyloman's picture

ah...

That clears it up nicely.

(psst. the company that had access to the buildings were legit cover. They just had a few teams come in on a side contract. I mean, WTF do you think? "The Jews" snuck in at night dressed up as ninjas?)

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

so... you want these guys to do the tests?

dude, I dunno...

willyloman's picture

What? You think they are lizard people?

there are any number of places to have the tests done.

The point is, they COULD run the tests that Dr. Jones doesn't seem to want to run.

why didn't you put up a picture of the test kit that anyone can buy and use themselves? you got the link to Leeder off my site, why not put that kit up here as well?

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

because the test kit...

...didn't look as sketchy as these guys.

willyloman's picture

So rather than agreeing with me.. you went looking for something

... like you said earlier, to "poo poo"?

You went looking for something on their site to crap on, and that is all you found? What? By "sketchy" what exactly do you mean? Is it their ties? Maybe their haircuts? Exactly what is it that makes them sketchy?

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

yup, pretty much

Because to be perfectly honest with you, WL, I suspect you're working on the limited hangout campaign. If it's not enough that you cite Kevin Ryan's limited hangout prep work, I noticed on your blog that you have no link to us, but plenty of links to a lot of fake left sites, up to and including "World Can't Wait", the not-even-LIHOP subsidiary of the "Revolutionary Communist Party".

Anyway, thanks for stopping by as usual!

willyloman's picture

Ah, if I don't focus on "the jews did it" I am "disinfo?

yeah, ok. as fucked up and pathetic as Blogger became, you gotta give 'em this much, they were right about you. Well, you keep looking for your Israeli boogiemen, I'll keep looking for more evidence.

(psst. BTW. your dogma don't add up. one minute Kevin Ryan is "limited hangout" and the next you are promoting his "nanothermite" nanoresearch til your blue in the face. Oh and by the way, I took your link off my site back when you did pretty much the same thing you are doing now to me cus I didn't support your love of CIT. Hows that CIT thing working out for you now?)

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

Keenan's picture

Well, this has been an interesting debate

Hello all...this whole thing around Steven Jones causing either consciously or uncounsciously more rifts is unfortunate but not totally surprising, given Jones's associations (with the Hoffman disinfo crew) and past wierdnesses.

Willy, I do have to say that there are some troubling aspects to your methods that have bothered me for a while. Your tendency to go overboard in your attempts to discredit the movement's research/researcher heavyweights around the Pentagon and WTC CD issues while simultaneously pushing your own unproven (and disproven in regards to the Pentagon drone/missile idea) pet theories on both issues has continued to give me reasons to be somewhat skeptical/suspicious of agenda.

I am really surprised that you are citing Kevin Ryan as a source after Ryan's blatant LIHOPpy stroll down the ridiculous BushANDArabsDidIt Lane, in which he tried to find any and every possible (no matter how weak) link between the evil Moooslims and the WTC demolitions, while ignoring any and all blatantly obvious links to Zionists (starting with the obvious insurance fraudster/arsonist owner of the WTC) and Israeli Mossad/technology companies/etc involvement. After that little stunt, I'm surprised anybody who's not a LIHOPper would give any credence to Kevin Ryan ever again.

I'm perplexed as to why you would insist on pushing the det cord theory while completely dismissing the remote control demolition sequence theory, among other things.

So, while Gretavo may sometimes be a little quick and abrupt to call people disinfo or "sketchy", I do in this case share some of Gretavo's concerns and suspician. Just my 2 cents...

willyloman's picture

two things...

1. the "remote controlled demolition theory" IS what I am supporting.

Det cord is ignited by remote controlled computer assisted sequencing. Each floor is seperate, that way they could reprogram the squence based on what area the plane actually hit.

In fact, that is how controlled demolition is done these days. With remote controlled sequences run by computer and with det cord and RDX cutter charges and other various things.

There has never been a controlled demolition job done with thermite, nanothermite, superthermite, or any other thermite, so in fact... I support the theory of REAL controlled demolition.

2. I find it odd, and I wonder if you do as well, that with all the accusations leveled at Ryan (who I am no fan of) the people who run this site promote his theory of demolition. Nanothermite demolition is partly Kevin Ryan's theory.

Odd isn't it? People here think Kevin Ryan is disinfo, yet they support Kevin Ryan's theory... go figure.

"I'm surprised anybody who's not a LIHOPper would give any credence to Kevin Ryan ever again."

as far as CIT goes, it's their quickness to call anyone who questions their logic "disinfo" agents that set me off. They have horrible demeanors about all this. It's like they "protest to much", if you know what I mean.

Yes, I believe that a missile or drone of some kind hit the Pentagon, and if you think I believe anything Jim Hoffman says to try and disprove that, you would be wrong.

Steven Jones has lied to me directly and introduced Gregg Roberts into a discussion that had nothing to do with him. Now I know where Roberts got his start, I know a thing or two more about Jones. This last little episode of his further proves my point.

now if anything I just said makes no sense to you, fine. But think about it.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

Keenan's picture

"There has never been a

"There has never been a controlled demolition job done with thermite, nanothermite, superthermite, or any other thermite, so in fact... I support the theory of REAL controlled demolition."

Do you have evidence to back up this claim? Regardless of whether or not thermite has been used in the past for controlled demolition:

1) thermite and its derivitaves are obviously considered to be useful in demolition type work by the military and other specialists

2) thermite and/or its derivitaves are obviously useful, at least in combination with other explosives technology in the arsenal of incendiaries/explosives, even if not by itself

So, your claim of why it is impossible/improbable that thermite/thermate/etc. could have been used in the WTC demolitions is complete nonsense.

"In fact, that is how controlled demolition is done these days. With remote controlled sequences run by computer and with det cord and RDX cutter charges and other various things."

There are many different ways to do controlled demolition, and new technologies can be added any time.

"2. I find it odd, and I wonder if you do as well, that with all the accusations leveled at Ryan (who I am no fan of) the people who run this site promote his theory of demolition. Nanothermite demolition is partly Kevin Ryan's theory."

Are you just pretending to be that stupid? By your logic, since Jim Hoffman advocates controlled demolition, we should dismiss controlled demolition now that Jim Hoffman is known to be a blatant disinfo agent. Or, since Nico Haupt was the first to define the terms LIHOP/MIHOP, we are promoting Nico Haupt by using those terms. Or, since Nico Haupt was one of the first to push the controlled demolition theory, we are pushing Nico Haupt's theory by advocating CD. You're naive or are just pretending to believe that a disinfo agent is either all or nothing and that we have to take the opposite of everything they say once we find one thing that is false.

"as far as CIT goes, it's their quickness to call anyone who questions their logic "disinfo" agents that set me off. They have horrible demeanors about all this. It's like they "protest to much", if you know what I mean."

I could care less about the personalities. It is the witnesses and physical evidence at the Pentagon that matters. CIT and P4T have compiled the most extensive body of evidence around the Pentagon attack of anybody. The evidence, verified, speaks for itself. You have *no* evidence to support your drone theory.

"Yes, I believe that a missile or drone of some kind hit the Pentagon, and if you think I believe anything Jim Hoffman says to try and disprove that, you would be wrong."

You've lost me here. I think you are trying, unsuccessfully, to construct a straw man argument.

willyloman's picture

well yeah...

"Do you have evidence to back up this claim?"

yeah, Frank Legge, one of the authors of the "nanothermite paper" with Jones and Harrit admitted in a letter that thermite or "nanothermite" had never been used in a controlled demolition.

"By your logic, since Jim Hoffman advocates controlled demolition, we should dismiss controlled demolition now that Jim Hoffman is known to be a blatant disinfo agent"

well, to be completely accurate, Jim Hoffman advocates "nanothermite" controlled demolition, just like you guys do here.

So, no. It does not mean that "controlled demolition" is tainted by his approval... it means "nanothermite" controlled demolition is.

(BTW. did you ever read Hoffman's "1.8 million ceiling tile bombs" theory? oh that was a wonderful piece of work. 1.8 million nanothermite ceiling tile bombs put in place by illegal immigrants... nice huh?)

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

Keenan's picture

It seems useless to carry on with you...

...since we just go round and round with your false logic. You pretend not to understand the logical points I am making, pretend to not see the forest through the trees, and keep using the same false logic and making misrepresentations to everybody who tries to debate with you. This has become tiresome and pointless.

And, besides: You've already exposed your agenda with your "the Jews did it" canard.

Have a nice day.

casseia's picture

Hey Keenan

I temporarily unpublished the comment that follows this one until gretavo has a chance to look at it. Use of willyloman's "real name" along with some of your statements about his possibly "professional" status in the 9/11 debunking world is potentially problematic.

I think your analysis is pretty much spot on, though -- maybe you'd just like to revise the post?

Keenan's picture

Actually, he uses his real name, so I didn't expose him

"Willy's" web site is:

http://willyloman.wordpress.com

"Willy" explains on his web site that he takes the pseudonym "Willy Loman" to represent "American Everyman" from a novel/movie. He publishes under Scott Creighton and willyloman, and makes no secret that he is Scott Creighton.

casseia's picture

I didn't say you did.

I know his real name, too, but in terms of making public accusations that someone is an agent, basically, putting his "real name" (which could be another pseudonym) out there, when he doesn't use it on THIS site, just seems like asking for trouble.

It's pretty easy for someone to find out MY real name but if someone was using it instead of "casseia" while accusing me of disinfo I would be more inclined to consider that it might be libelous.

Keenan's picture

From

From http://willyloman.wordpress.com/about/

"About willyloman
American Everyman

American Everyman

American Everyman was started in June of 2007 by me, Scott Creighton, as an on-line diary more than anything else, but as time went on it became an expression of change. My change..."

Keenan's picture

I suppose removing the words

I suppose removing the words "professional" and "pay check" should solve the problem...

Keenan's picture

"willyloman": Turd in the 9/11 TruthPunch Bowl

I've become convinced that Scott, who blogs with the pseudonym "willyloman" [and has his "real name" posted on his site] is serving an agenda as essentially a turd in 9/11 Truth Punch Bowl.

To put it simply, Scott is a [adjective] Debunker who has inserted himself inside the 9/11 Truth Movement and is more than likely in cahoots with the Debunkers who operate from outside the truth movement. The purposes that Scott serves probably include:

1) To debunk all the best physical evidence that the movement has with regard to the WTC demolitions and the Pentagon explosions and replace it with his own pet inferior nonsensical theories

2) Create confusion and to paint a picture for the public that there is a legitimate debate about the validity of the evidence when in reality there is none

3) To keep the average internet surfer turned off of 9/11 truth with trick arguments/explanations and appeals to emotion (ie ridicule)

4) To grossly misinform the people as part of a wider agenda, which probably includes keeping people away from MIHOP by confusing and discrediting the best evidence, as well as possibly covering up Israel's/Zionists' role by utilizing that ol' canard "the Jews did it"

5) In their actions these debunkers are prolonging the unnecessary war on terror, protecting mass murderers, and allowing for further false flags to occur

Reading through willyloman's/Scott's posts, one quickly sees patterns which consist of:

1) A proper consideration of the facts was never remotely on Scott's agenda and his posts are consistently laced with dishonesty and misrepresentations

2) Over-use of ridicule and unsubstantiated rhetoric points to an agenda other than a fair attempt to get to the truth

3) Attempts at obfuscating the facts, with a primary function of psychological warfare

4) Seems to be trying to create a landscape hostile to an objective investigation

"WillyLoman" aka Scott is just another fake who [has some sort of motivation] for blowing smoke out of his ass and trying, but failing, to halt our progress. Those of us who are paying attention can actually benefit by such blatant shillary, because it helps shed light on the agendas and tactics of the disinformation agents. Thanks for stopping by, "willyloman"...it's been quite educational

gretavo's picture

just to be clear Keenan...

...you don't actually know this to be true for a fact, correct? it's perfectly fine to say what you suspect someone's motives/agenda to be, but not to imply that you know this to be true if you don't.

Keenan's picture

I'll try to remember to use

I'll try to remember to use the word "suspect" from now on when I don't have absolute proof. Do you essentially agree with my analysis of what's going on?

gretavo's picture

pretty much

I mean, it's entirely plausible...

willyloman's picture

one more thing

go take a look at my site. Take a look at what I have been writing about with regard to Palestine, Gaza, West bank settlements, for years and years.

All my work is right there for everyone to see. WITH my real name signed to it. I am proud of the stand I have taken and I will continue to do so.

So for someone to go to that site and come back here accusing me of "limited hangout" is beyond illogical. Look at the links on the side of my webpage and tell me I am "limited hangout".

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

ok gimme a sec...

you are limited hangout. well you yourself are not limited hangout--limited hangout is your apparent agenda.

don't even bother at this point, willyloman. you're no different than anyone else in the parade of fakers that has come through here being all nice and smiley only to end up proclaiming some variant of "oh ok, i guess nothing satisfies you if it doesn't blame The Jews!!" before skulking back in a huff to your disinfo batcave to work on a new approach to disrupting the 9/11 Truth movement.

tell you what. read our mission statement. then when you're finished, read it again. continue to do this until you understand it. then take your BS insinuations and accusations somewhere like Truth Action where they might actually buy you some cred.

gretavo's picture

my love of CIT? BWAHAHA!

duuuude... anyone can use that little search box on the right and look up what I think about CIT, and see what a liar you're being! Is that... snif snif.. Eau de Desperation? I think it is!

"Oh and by the way, I took your link off my site back when you did pretty much the same thing you are doing now to me cus I didn't support your love of CIT. Hows that CIT thing working out for you now?)"

willyloman's picture

oh, yeah all those Limited hangout links I got... like...

Dauntless Dissent
B'Tselem
Norman Finklestein
Electronic Intifada
Filasteen
Free Gaza
Global Research
Honduras Watch
Israel's 60th Birthday
Press tV
Project Censored
World Socialist Website
david Ray Griffin Truth and Politics
David Ray Griffin Myth and Reality
David Ray griffin How the Towers Fell
AntiWar
Counterpunch
Indymedia...

yeah, look at all that "limited hangout" and gosh, I hardly ever write anything about Palestinian rights, or the Goldstone report, or Gaza or the Illegal Settlements.

now that I think about it, where are your links to pro-Palestinian groups? Where are all your articles on The Gaza Ghetto?

ah... now I get it.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

now let's see

Dauntless Dissent = no clue what this is
B'Tselem = 9/11 truth deniers
Norman Finklestein = 9/11 truth denier
Electronic Intifada = 9/11 truth deniers
Filasteen = "official narrative is contested"
Free Gaza = 9/11 truth deniers
Global Research = LIHOP heavy
Honduras Watch = N/A
Israel's 60th Birthday = links to a pharma ad
Press tV = 9/11 truth deniers
Project Censored
World Socialist Website = 100% LIHOP at best
david Ray Griffin Truth and Politics
David Ray Griffin Myth and Reality
David Ray griffin How the Towers Fell
AntiWar = 9/11 truth deniers
Counterpunch = 9/11 truth deniers
Indymedia...

So what is your point exactly? Most of what you link to is 9/11 truth denying crap! And this is just the selection that YOU picked... I'm not going to waste my time pointing out every instance of controlled opposition and disinfo your site promotes--it would take days! And yeah, thanks for making it clear that what troubles you about this site is its focus on Zionists, who you helpfully refer to as "The Jews". Never seen anyone do *that* before. Nope! What you are seems pretty clear at this point, "willyloman". Every time a shill like you melts down, you help us piece together the puzzle, so do please come back soon!

willyloman's picture

wow...

you write off B'Tselem, Norman Finklestein, Filisteen, and Free Gaza... as "9/11 Truth deniers"?

and you are supposedly anti-zionism? Because you support Kevin Ryan's "nanothermite" theory?

wow.

Apparently I am not the one "melting down" here, gretavo. I clearly stand opposed to the zionist agenda in Palestine. I write about it, I blog about it, I link to websites where people put their lives on the line to stand against it.

and I use my real name while doing it.

and you dismiss those people and their efforts... just like that?

and anytime you want to come on over and "expose" all my "disinfo" you come right on over. I'll look forward to it.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

the only one of those...

...who is an actual person with whom one might have a dialogue (as opposed to simply examining what they publish) is Norman Finkelstein. I exchanged several emails on the subject of 9/11 with Prof. Finkelstein years ago, and can assure you that he is a 9/11 truth denier. He disappointed me as much as Noam Chomsky did when I engaged him in conversation in the street while doing actual outreach before that. So to answer your question, yep, "just like that" I dismiss those people and their efforts. As for your invitation to expose your disinfo, I have much better things to do with my time, but thanks! See you next time you decide to stop by our little island of honest sanity!

gretavo's picture

and sorry if *I'm* being combative...

...but maybe I'm just not getting your points as you intend them.

willyloman's picture

sometimes I do come across as having a bit of a "tone"

it's unintentional. But I (obviously) strongly believe that, as you said earlier, Jones is hindering our efforts at this point. I certainly feel stronger about that than you do, but it is roughly the same thing.

After all the great work done over the years by people like Gage and Griffin and all those people running websites and doing investigations of their own, I hate to think that the only physical evidence we have is something so flimsy as "nanothermite".

Especially since we have the means and the know-how to test for more. The only problem being that jones refuses to run the tests.

I think the grass roots need to take back some measure of this investigation. Let jones do what jones is doing, and find our own samples and test the stuff ourselves.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

i don't disagree

the more testing the merrier!

gretavo's picture

seems to me...

that most reasonably stable explosives could be properly shielded from shock/heat/friction so as to only be detonated when you wanted them to be. the only part that would have to be exposed is the receiver that would send the electric current to the first explosive (like whatever is in an electric match) which would then trigger the big one...

willyloman's picture

how exacty

are you going to "properly shield" something on a floor in the towers that you are going to crash a 767 into?

and if you could "properly shield" nanothermite, why couldn't you shield PETN?

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

I didn't say you couldn't

shield PETN. but I didn't mean that you would shield it from the plane impact--if the plane caused something to detonate in the impact zone i don't think that would be a big deal. But once you have a fire burning, that could spread anywhere, you don't want it setting off explosives that you can't write off as part of the plane impact.

willyloman's picture

each floor would be wired seperately...

so only the effected areas would burn. Again, if you look up PETN you will find it would burn, not explode in a fire situation.

Since one floor is not linked to the others, it would be contained.

The det cord itself is only used to bust up the floor systems. That way you don't have to drill into the concrete. But there would be other charges obviously on the core structure and the exterior column spandrels. They would be shaped charges (could have been thermite.. I don't know).

Det cord can be made with many things. PETN, RDX all kinds of stuff. But it has to be a rather stable high explosive, and since PETN is most commonly used and the most stable, I suggest looking there. But the tests check for all types.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

willyloman's picture

oh you guys gotta read this

now this is fun

Dr. Jones Reanimates The Corpse of the “Dustification Lady”, Dr.Judy Wood

http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2010/02/21/dr-jones-reanimates-the-corps...

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

willyloman's picture

zombie bill hicks had this too say about it on TA

"It seems like CD advocates really want to sweep this under the rug. But as I understand it, thats not how Judy Wood was treated after her attempt at derailing the truth movement.

Mr. Jones said that this topic of tectonic weaponry is what has his attention currently. So we can expect to hear more about this down the road.

Everyone should be painfully aware of how the general public will react to this information when it inevitably finds its way into street actions, protests, and conferences.

And it has nothing to do with 9/11. Yet Jones, who is not affiliated with AE911Truth, felt that it would be a good idea to present this to the few media outlets that did attend the press conference.

Historically, the movement separates itself from the space beam/tv fakery/reptillian/(insert crazy sound theory here) people. But when it comes to Steven Jones, many individuals want to pretend that this didnt happen. But it did, and at the expense of Richard Gage and his organizations credibility on a day that should have been a celebration.

Instead, it was a great day for HAARPies.

In my opinion people within the movement should be prepared to come under the same amount of scrutiny we apply to everyone we focus our gaze on, especially when they give a good reason to. They should be called on it. So in that spirit I'd like to ask a question:

Is anyone aware of whether or not professor Jones tested the dust samples for any conventional explosive residues such as PETN? If not, why?"

I always liked Bill Hicks. I like his zombie as well

I think I am banned over at TruthAction otherwise I would be over there jumping right into the action.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

gretavo's picture

Zombie Bill Hicks is a turd

That's not to say he won't say one or two things that make sense now and then. But bringing up "tectonic warfare" anywhere near an AE press conference is one thing--very bad call, and even suspicious. But not testing for PETN? Big deal. We know there was molten iron. We know there were explosives. We know these facts have been covered up. What's the problem with just going with that and avoiding the bickering over what color pants the Mossad agents who rigged the towers with the explosives were wearing?? :)

willyloman's picture

because claiming you found evidence of high explosives...

used in the World Trade Center when you didn't doesn't provide the evidence needed for a reopening of the investigation. All it provides is ... a distraction. That is why.

That is why we need to understand the difference.

Jones would have you believe that we have already found residues of high explosives used in the Twin Towers.

But in fact, we have not.

Look at the name of his paper "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe"

"Active Thermitic Material" means it wasn't used.

If I find a stick of dynamite in a burned out car does that mean I can run around saying that dynamite took out the car? Would that be logical?

If the dynamite took out the car, it wouldn't still be a stick of dynamite.

Any number of things could have happened to the car. Dynamite may have done it. But finding a stick of it in the car or near the car is like finding an unused bullet next to a dead guy and deducing he was shot.

Because you are assuming there MUST have been another bullet.

Truth activists may fall for that because it was packaged very well and "peer reviewed"... but investigators don't fall for those kinds of logical falacies.

So yes... in this case, the color of their pants matters alot.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK

Allende Admirer's picture

Seems like ZBH and Willy

Seems like ZBH and Willy have a mutual admiration society.
They both like to stress the CD.. "THEORY" or"HYPOTHESIS" "which they of course support but will always argue it is JUST hypothesis.

They both are concerned to look for PETN whist making the point that JUDY WOOD was ahead of Stephen Jones on HAARP. And both linked to each other, here, and on the
http://www.truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6338&postdays=0&postord... thread.

Only difference is Willy identifies himself and ZBH is adamant about concealing his identity.

They both share a predilection for superior condescending mockery too.

I wonder if they are both mock muppets or something.
Anyway I don't trust 'either' of them .

gretavo's picture

interesting coincidences indeed

And I certainly don't mean to encourage a culture of suspicion, but none of us should be in the business of 100%trusting or having faith in each other. We can learn a lot by observing patterns of behavior, etc. but in the end all that really matters are facts. Also people should be consistent in applying their standards of logic and reasoning. Sincere people can disagree, and usually sincere people try to work in good faith to understand what the disagreement is specifically.

An example of this would be this site arguing that more attention needs to paid, given our knowledge of history, to the role played by Zionism as an ideology and Zionists themselves in the events of 9/11, without turning that attention into demonization or generalization of Jewish people, however many of them may subscribe to Zionist ideas or not.

Someone who sincerely disagrees with our view could easily articulate their disagreement without resorting to the distortion of our views and/or calling into question our character. When someone like "willyloman" pulls out the "you think THE JEWS did it" canard, it's a clear sign, to me anyway, that he isn't really sincere, but instead here to pursue an agenda that most likely lies far afield of the truth.

Allende Admirer's picture

Right! Everyone in this

Right!
Everyone in this movement has to have their 'BS' detectors turned up to 11 permanently these days and follow their instincts. There is a meme which likes to portray the movement's dichotomy as "muslims did it v's jews did it"
and thereby draw attention to both as possible "disinfo".

Whilst I know logically that I must be suspicious of this site as much as any other 'agenda',and I have spent enough time arguing "Evidence" with online personalities who employ various easily identifiable strategies to counteract the logic of legitimate concern.(Intellectual superiority, distraction, dissemination, ad hominem, straw man etc).....

-I am still here, and my BS detector went red early on in this irrational arrogant self assured rant by Willyloman .

It is something about showing respect, differentiation, and
reservation when it is due.

gretavo's picture

I would put...

...CIT in the same category as Willy L in terms of not "showing respect, differentiation, and reservation when it is due". I would say that we could elaborate on Nietzsche's maxim as follows: "The most perfidious way to harm a cause is to defend it deliberately with faulty arguments, or to defend it deliberately with plausible arguments but act like a jerk while doing it." The first part (the original) plays to people's logic, i.e. they can identify false arguments and infer, however incorrectly, that they are the only or best arguments in support of the cause in question. The second part appeals to people's emotion--making them viscerally dislike the messenger enough to irrationally dismiss their arguments, however sound they may be.

gretavo's picture

Everything you always wanted to know about PETN

al Qaeda sure seems to be fond of it... waitaminnit!  you don't suppose... wait that's IT!  they didn't think al Qaeda used PETN in the twin towers because NOBODY COULD HAVE IMAGINED using PETN in such a clever manner!it's like, the poor man's superthermite! 

  

Pentaerythritol tetranitrate

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  (Redirected from PETN)
Jump to: navigation, search

Pentaerythritol tetranitrate
Identifiers
CAS number 78-11-5 Yes check.svgY
PubChem 6518
SMILES
Properties
Molecular formula C5H8N4O12
Molar mass 316.137 g/mol
Appearance White crystalline solid[1]
Density 1.77 g/cm3 at 20 °C
Melting point

141.3 °C, 414 K, 286 °F

Boiling point

180 °C, 453 K, 356 °F (decomposes above 150 °C)

Explosive data
Shock sensitivity Medium
Friction sensitivity Medium
Explosive velocity 8400 m/s (density 1.7 g/cm3)
RE factor 1.66
Hazards
Autoignition
temperature
190 °C
 Yes check.svgY (what is this?)  (verify)
Except where noted otherwise, data are given for materials in their standard state (at 25 °C, 100 kPa)
Infobox references

Pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN, also known as PENT, PENTA, TEN, corpent, penthrite, or rarely and primarily in German as nitropenta or pentrit)[2] is one of the most powerful high explosives known, with a relative effectiveness factor (R.E. factor) of 1.66. In addition to being used as a plastic explosive,[3][4][5][6][7] it is also used as a vasodilator drug to treat certain heart conditions.

Contents

[hide]

[edit] Properties and uses

The most common use of PETN is as an explosive with high brisance. It is more difficult to detonate than primary explosives, so dropping or igniting it will typically not cause an explosion (at atmospheric pressure it is difficult to ignite and burns relatively slowly), but is more sensitive to shock and friction than other high explosives such as TNT or tetryl.[8] Under certain conditions deflagration to detonation transition can occur.

It is rarely used alone, but primarily used in booster and bursting charges of small caliber ammunition, in upper charges of detonators in some land mines and shells, and as the explosive core of detonation cord.[9] PETN is the least stable of the common military explosives, but can be stored without significant deterioration for longer than nitroglycerin or nitrocellulose.[10] It is also used in exploding bridgewire detonators, either alone or with a subsequent booster charge. In spark detonators, PETN is used to avoid need for primary explosives; the energy needed for a successful direct initiation of PETN by an electric spark ranges between 10-60 mJ.

Its basic explosion characteristics are:

  • Explosion energy: 5810 kJ/kg (1390 kcal/kg)
  • Detonation velocity: 8350 m/s (1.73 g/cm3), 7910 m/s (1.62 g/cm3), 7420 m/s (1.5 g/cm3), 8500 m/s (pressed in a steel tube)
  • Volume of gases produced: 790 dm3/kg (other value: 768 dm3/kg)
  • Explosion temperature: 4230 °C
  • Oxygen balance: -6.31 atom -g/kg
  • Melting point: 141.3°C (pure), 140-141°C (technical)
  • Trauzl block test: 523 cm3 (other values: 500 cm3 when sealed with sand, or 560 cm3 when sealed with water)
  • Critical diameter (minimal diameter of a rod that can sustain detonation propagation): 0.9 mm for PETN at 1 g/cm3, smaller for higher densities (other value: 1.5 mm)

PETN is used in a number of compositions. It is a major ingredient of the Semtex plastic explosive. It is also used as a component of pentolite, a 50/50 blend with TNT; a shaped charge of 8 oz of pentolite, used in the M9A1 (bazooka) rockets, can penetrate up to 5 inches of armor.[11] The XTX8003 extrudable explosive, used in the W68 and W76 nuclear warheads, is a mixture of 80% PETN and 20% of Sylgard 182, a silicone rubber.[12] It is often phlegmatized by addition of 5-40% of wax, or by polymers (producing polymer-bonded explosives); in this form it is used in some cannon shells up to 30mm caliber, though unsuitable for higher calibers. It is also used as a component of some gun propellants and solid rocket propellants. Nonphlegmatized PETN is stored and handled with approximately 10% water content.

PETN alone can not be cast as it explosively decomposes slightly above its melting point, but it can be mixed with other explosives to form castable mixtures.

PETN can be initiated by a laser. A pulse with duration of 25 nanoseconds and 0.5-4.2 joules of energy from a Q-switched ruby laser can initiate detonation of a PETN surface coated with a 100nm thick aluminium layer in less than half microsecond.

Neutron radiation degrades PETN, producing carbon dioxide and some pentaerythritol dinitrate and trinitrate. Gamma radiation increases the thermal decomposition sensitivity of PETN, lowers melting point by few degrees C and causes swelling of the samples.

Like other nitrate esters, the primary degradation mechanism is the loss of nitrogen dioxide; this reaction is autocatalytic. The subsequent step is loss of formaldehyde. Studies were performed on thermal decomposition of PETN.[13]

PETN has been replaced in many application by RDX, which is thermally more stable and has longer shelf life.[14]

PETN can be used in some ram accelerator types.[15]

PETN is practically insoluble in water (0.01 g/100 ml at 50°C), weakly soluble in common nonpolar solvents like aliphatic hydrocarbons or tetrachloromethane but soluble in some other organic solvents, particularly in acetone (about 15 g/100 g of the solution at 20°C, 55 g/100 g at 60°C) and dimethylformamide (40 g/100 g of the solution at 40°C, 70 g/100 g at 70°C). PETN forms eutectic mixtures with some liquid or molten aromatic nitro compounds, e.g. trinitrotoluene or tetryl. Due to its highly symmetrical structure PETN is resistant to attack by many chemical reagents; it does not hydrolyze in water at room temperature or in weaker alkaline aqueous solutions. Water at 100° or above causes hydrolysis to dinitrate; presence of 0.1% nitric acid accelerates the reaction. Addition of TNT and other aromatic nitroderivates lowers thermal stability of PETN.

PETN is manufactured by numerous manufacturers as a powder, or together with nitrocellulose and plasticizer as thin plasticized sheets (e.g. Primasheet 1000 or Detasheet). Its residues are easily detectable in hair of people handling it.[16] The highest residue retention is on black hair; some residues remain present even after washing.[17]

Like the related explosive nitroglycerin (glyceryl trinitrate), PETN is also used medically as a vasodilator in the treatment of heart conditions. These drugs work by releasing the signaling gas nitric oxide in the body. The heart medicine Lentonitrat is nearly pure PETN.[18]

In the environment PETN undergoes biodegradation. Some bacteria denitrate PETN to trinitrate and then dinitrate, which is then further degraded.[11] PETN has low volatility and low solubility in water, therefore has low bioavailability for most organisms. Its toxicity is relatively low. Its transdermal absorption also seems to be low.[1] It poses threat for aquatic organism. It can be degraded to pentaerythritol by elementary iron.[19]

Replacement of the central carbon atom with silicon produces Si-PETN, which is extremely sensitive.[20][21]

[edit] Detection

Many technologies can be used to detect PETN, a number of which have been implemented in public screening applications, primarily for air travel. PETN is just one of a number of explosive chemicals typically of interest in that area, and it belongs to a family of common nitrate-based explosive chemicals which can often be detected by the same tests. One technology, detectors that test swabs wiped on passengers and their baggage for traces of explosives, is generally reserved for travelers who are thought to merit additional scrutiny. A second type of machine, whole-body imaging scanners that use radio-frequency electromagnetic waves or low intensity x rays to detect objects under clothing, was of limited availability because of cost, privacy groups' opposition, and industry concerns about bottlenecks.[22] This is, however, not an exhaustive list.

Monitoring of oral usage of the drug by patients has been performed by determination of plasma levels of several of its hydrolysis products, pentaerythritol dinitrate, pentaerythritol mononitrate and pentaerythritol, in plasma using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry.[23]

[edit] Production

PETN's preparation involves the nitration of pentaerythritol with a mixture of concentrated nitric and sulfuric acid. The preferred method of nitration is the ICI method, which utilizes concentrated nitric acid (98%+) alone, as mixed acid can create unstable sulfonated by-products.

C(CH2OH)4 + 4 HNO3 ? C(CH2ONO2)4 + 4 H2O

The pentaerythritol is poured into the concentrated acid, while the temperature is kept below 25 °C; PETN precipitates near the end of the reaction. The reaction mixture is poured into cold water, the precipitated fine white crystals are filtered and washed with sodium carbonate solution until alkaline reaction. Crude wet PETN is then dissolved in acetone with small amount of sodium carbonate, and in multiple steps diluted with water and heated up to 100 °C, while purified PETN is precipitated; acetone vapors are recycled. Recrystallized PETN can be phlegmatized with montan wax; water at 85°C, PETN, dye and wax are sequentially added into the phlegmatizer, mixed for about 10 minutes, then cooled to 70 °C and filtered, then washed with cold water and dried by warm air at 70 °C. Nonphlegmatized PETN, used for manufacture of explosive compositions, is stored and handled wet with about 10% water content.[24]

A thermally stabilized PETN can be prepared by dissolving PETN in a suitable solvent together with a stabilizer, e.g. polyvinylpyrrolidone, and precipitating it by pouring into rapidly stirred ethanol or water.

[edit] History and misuse

Penthrite was first synthesized in 1891 by German chemist Bernhard Tollens and P. Wiegand by nitration of pentaerythritol. In 1912, after being patented by the German government, the production of PETN started. PETN was used by the German Army in World War I.[25]

In 1983 the "Maison de France" house in Berlin was brought to a partial, almost total, collapse by the detonation of 24 kg of pentaerythritol tetranitrate by terrorist Johannes Weinrich.[26] In December 2001 al-Qaeda member Richard Reid used PETN in his unsuccessful attempt to blow up American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami.[27] He had intended to use the solid triacetone triperoxide (TATP) as a detonator.[8] On 28 August 2009 PETN was used in an attempt to murder the Saudi Arabian Deputy Minister of Interior Prince Muhammad bin Nayef by al-Qaeda linked Saudi suicide-bomber Abdullah Hassan al Asiri. The target survived, and the bomber died in the blast. The PETN was hidden in the bomber's rectum[28] or sewn into his underwear.[29]

On 25 December 2009, PETN was found in the possession of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, a 23-year-old Nigerian with links to an al-Qaeda cell based in Yemen.[30] According to US law enforcement officials,[31] he had attempted to blow up Northwest Airlines Flight 253 while approaching Detroit from Amsterdam.[32] Abdulmutallab had tried, unsuccessfully, to detonate approximately 80 grams [33] of PETN sewn into his underwear by adding liquid from a syringe; however only a small fire resulted.[8]

[edit] See also

[edit] References

  1. ^ a b Wildlife Toxicity Assessment for pentaerythritol tetranitrate, U.S. Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine, November 2001, http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/erawg/tox/files/WTA%28PETN%29_FINAL.pdf 
  2. ^ "Pentrite, CAS Number: 78-11-5". ChemIndustry.com. http://www.chemindustry.com/chemicals/658929.html. Retrieved 2009-04-22. 
  3. ^ Jsu, Spencer, S., "Equipment to detect explosives is available," The Washington Post, December 28, 2009, accessed January 9, 2010
  4. ^ Paperny, Anna Mehler, "Foiled attack on U.S. plane leaves airport chaos in its wake, The Globe and Mail, December 29, 2009, accessed January 9, 2010
  5. ^ The Big Question: Will body scanners in airports reduce the threat from terrorism? - Big Question, Extras. The Independent. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  6. ^ Analysis: Similar explosive on plane used in Saudi attack - CNN.com. Edition.cnn.com. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  7. ^ Revkin, Andrew C.. (1996-08-30) Crash Simulation Sets T.W.A. Blast In One Small Area. NYTimes.com. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  8. ^ a b c Kenneth Chang (2009-12-27), "Explosive on Flight 253 Is Among Most Powerful", The New York Times, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/28/us/28explosives.html?ref=us 
  9. ^ "Primacord Technical Information" (PDF). Dyno Nobel. http://www.dynonobel.com/NR/rdonlyres/209B7E9F-6C15-40EF-B677-2C14EAE41623/0/Primacord.pdf. Retrieved 2009-04-22. 
  10. ^ PETN (chemical compound) - Britannica Online Encyclopedia. Britannica.com. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  11. ^ a b PETN - Drug information from. Medic8.com. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  12. ^ Information Bridge: DOE Scientific and Technical Information - Sponsored by OSTI. Osti.gov (2009-11-23). Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  13. ^ Thermal decomposition of PENT and HMX over a wide temperature range by V.N. German et al.
  14. ^ US Army - Encyclopedia of Explosives and Related Items, vol.8
  15. ^ Simulation of ram accelerator with PETN layer, Arkadiusz Kobiera and Piotr Wolanski, XXI ICTAM, 15-21 August 2004, Warsaw, Poland
  16. ^ Winslow, Ron. (2009-12-29) A Primer in PETN - WSJ.com. Online.wsj.com. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  17. ^ Accumulation of explosives in hair. Cat.inist.fr. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  18. ^ Russek H. I. (1966). "The therapeutic role of coronary vasodilators: glyceryl trinitrate, isosorbide dinitrate, and pentaerythritol tetranitrate.". American Journal of Medical Science 252 (1): 9–20. doi:10.1097/00000441-196607000-00002. PMID 4957459. 
  19. ^ Li Zhuang, Lai Gui and Robert W. Gillham (2008). "Degradation of Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate (PETN) by Granular Iron". Environ. Sci. Technol. 42: 4534. doi:10.1021/es7029703. 
  20. ^ Wei-Guang Liu et al. (2009). "Explanation of the Colossal Detonation Sensitivity of Silicon Pentaerythritol Tetranitrate (Si-PETN) Explosive". J. Am. Chem. Soc. 131: 7490. doi:10.1021/ja809725p. http://www.wag.caltech.edu/publications/sup/pdf/806.pdf. 
  21. ^ Computational Organic Chemistry » Si-PETN sensitivity explained. Comporgchem.com (2009-07-20). Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  22. ^ Equipment to detect explosives is available. washingtonpost.com. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  23. ^ R. Baselt, Disposition of Toxic Drugs and Chemicals in Man, 8th edition, Biomedical Publications, Foster City, CA, 2008, pp. 1201-1203.
  24. ^ (Slovak) Pentrit - Wikipédia. Sk.wikipedia.org (2010-02-03). Retrieved on 2010-02-08.
  25. ^ Stettbacher, Alfred (1933). Die Schiess- und Sprengstoffe. Leipzig: Barth. p. 459. 
  26. ^ Article detailing attack on Maison de France in Berlin (German)
  27. ^ "'Shoe bomb suspect 'did not act alone'". BBC News. 2002-01-25. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1783237.stm. Retrieved 2009-04-22. 
  28. ^ "Saudi suicide bomber hid IED in his anal cavity", Homeland Security Newswire, 2009-09-09, http://homelandsecuritynewswire.com/saudi-suicide-bomber-hid-ied-his-anal-cavity 
  29. ^ Peter Bergen (2009-12-27), "Analysis: Similar explosive on plane used in Saudi attack", CNN.com, http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/12/27/bergen.terror.plot/index.html 
  30. ^ "Al Qaeda Claims Responsibility for Attempted Bombing of U.S. Plane". FOX News Network. 2009-12-28. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,581307,00.html. Retrieved 2009-12-29. 
  31. ^ Criminal Complaint
  32. ^ "'Investigators: Northwest Bomb Plot Planned by al Qaeda in Yemen'". ABC News. 2009-12-26. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/northwest-bomb-plot-planned-al-qaeda-yemen/story?id=9426085&page=1. Retrieved 2009-12-26. 
  33. ^ Explosive in Detroit terror case could have blown hole in airplane, sources say. washingtonpost.com. Retrieved on 2010-02-08.

[edit] External Links

willyloman's picture

there is one more thing to know about PETN...

this is from an interview with a lead project manager of CDI... the company that came in after the towers were down and worked on the clean up. The owner also just happens to be the source cited by the NIST Building 7 report as the sole reason they didn't check for explosive residue. Becasue the owner of CDI says it didn't "look" like a controlled demolition.

this is from the first two paragraphs of the interview on how controlled demolition works...

"Thom Doud, blaster-in-charge for Controlled Demolition Inc. (CDI), heads up a small slope toward the hospital's main entrance and ducks under a gap in the chain-link fence. In moments he is inside the building, where the walls are gone--battered down and hauled out weeks ago--and the ceilings and floors are naked concrete. A staircase descending from the second floor ends in midair, its base sawed off. Everywhere, tangles of red and yellow cords snake across the floor and wind their way up the load-bearing columns.

"Those lines are detonating cord," Doud warns. "They've got a PETN-based explosive in them. Pentaerythritol tetranitrate. Took me two years to learn how to say it and I still can't spell it."

http://www.origin.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/1787846....

so others use PETN as well... others like the demolition industry. they use it alot. Or so says the demolition industry.

"The future is not inherited, it is achieved." JFK