"What's Going On at 911Blogger"... yeah, right... GW Defends the Stranglehold on Comments

casseia's picture

GeorgeWashington has stepped in to take some of the heat for Reprehensor, who has been buried under an avalanche of negative feedback about his plan to moderate comments. For some reason, I'm almost more offended at GW's patronizing attempt to calm the rabble than I was with Rep's more matter-of-fact announcement of the advent of unabashed censorship.

First, GW suggests that dz thought of abandoning comments several times, because they led to the need for greater bandwidth and thus higher operating costs. Yeah, that's right -- and that's why a number of us coughed up money for a new server. Have you noticed, though, that it's been weeks since comments blacked out due to server overload? The site seemed to be operating without loading delays as well. In fact, things seemed to be toodling along just fine.

But wait! That's not why the Hoover Dam on comments was put into place, rather

[a]nother reason is that the moderators have felt that there is a real danger that hate speech by posters might be attributed to the site, which could end up shutting down the site (there are stories of similar things happening to other 9/11 sites).

What? Like what 9/11 site? Really, what site is he talking about, but more importantly, what HATE SPEECH is he talking about? Was it the occasional gay slur? Don't think so. The occasional anti-Semitic remark (generally made by someone sloppily misusing the term when intending to refer to Zionists)? WHERE WAS THE HATE SPEECH AT 911BLOGGER? And how does hate speech get a site shut down, what with the First Amendment and all?

Finally, we saw some people causing disruption and infighting instead of actually contributing anything (such as information, activist ideas, etc.)

Ooooohkay. The real motivation seeps out. It's those damn wedge issues again! Those naughty 911bloggerites who just couldn't let some things rest for the sake of UNITY are going to ruin everything! They. Must. Be. Stopped.

Then in the end, GW suggests everyone take a chill pill for a month and work extra specially hard on "hard-hitting" blogs, "sharing news tips" (sounds like sharing advice about lip gloss) and activism. Move the ball down the field! Rah rah rah!

In the back of my mind, I have been putting these recent developments into a context that became clear to me some time ago. That is, the number of people who comment at 911blogger is a tiny fraction of the number of people who visit the site. So who cares what happens to comments? The site will go on! Well, GW's final patronizing exhortation about submitting blogs made a lightbulb go on for me -- the people writing blogs are the same group of people who comment. Bloggers have been writing for their audience. Blogs have arisen out of a discursive community made up by commenters as much as by bloggers. Likewise, activism has been engendered by that same community, especially truth squads, who knew that their acts of derring-do would receive standing ovations when videos were uploaded. Of course, certain of the "usual suspects" will continue to churn out blogs for the sake of hearing their own virtual voices, even as the crickets chirp in the background. I guess that's a good thing, because Lord knows I'm still not entirely clear on the significance of the wire transfer...

Evolutionary pressure ain't pretty. I'm sure it will become more clear over time what behind-the-scenes force has caused this upheaval in the Land of Blogger, what has caused it to become so inhospitable to the community that used to thrive there. In any event, the tiny proto-mammals of truth must now stream outward, away from the disaster and the dinosaurs, creating other sites and other communities. However, I reserve the right to be deeply irked.

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inside's picture

im just waiting to find out

im just waiting to find out what somebigguy has to say about all of this... im hoping that he quits,soon... back in the day(haha) sbg and i would beat up on gold together all day, we would call him on all of his bullshit.. like i said, i hope he quits.

Annoymouse's picture

sbg is the only one i still

sbg is the only one i still have any respect for, and incidentally he was really the only one that would ever talk to us on our level. GW and Rep were always these quiet figurehead types sitting on their thrones looking down on us. i'll admit GW has done some great work but if this is how hes gonna go out.........

Annoymouse's picture

heres my comment that wont make the cut........

lets see, we have numerous excuses. well GW supports it and DZ thought about doing it too so i guess Rep isnt the overly controlling micromanager we thought he was, hes just a part of the team and was willing to go out in front on this censorship thing. then we have "hate speech" right? does that mean mentioning Israel and/or Mossad? is that "hate speech"? can you be more clear about that one GW? then we have the money excuse, and i confess i dont know much about computers so this could very well be a valid one. and of course we have the dreaded "disruption". i dont know, i guess i give people more credit than the mods here, who seem to think that the comments are enough to drive people to suicide or something. it really isnt that hard to just scroll on by the arguments and off topic comments etc. all i see here is people creating a problem where there really was none in the first place. im going to miss the real time commenting and the obscure links and great discussion/debate i would find from the wide range of personalities here. this place was truly great and unique while it lasted. RIP911blogger.com. yes, you've killed it.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Former Director, CIA

inside's picture

no shit, chris!!! whats

no shit, chris!!! whats funny is that i thought that you were sgb when i first saw your posts at 911b..

sgb used to post all day when i met him and since his became a "team member" at 911b we stopped talking but i just thought that he had other things that werre kepping him busy...

im just glad that most of the good people have made it over here so fast..

casseia's picture

Post from Danse

I find the change in comment policy paternalistic, unnecessary and unbefitting of a 911truth site. It establishes a hierarchy that is subject to corruption and restricts the free exchange of ideas.

The site will become more and more about the individuals at the top of the hierarchy and how they interpret information rather than the information itself. Additionally, undergoing a constant screening process and having to wait forever for comments to appear will discourage people from commenting at all. The end result will be a user base full of passive “consumers” of information rather than active members of a thriving community.

In short, it’s a massive step backwards.

The problems you cite were being dealt with just fine with the group-moderating scheme. If you’re worried about “hate speech” simply delete those posts after the fact. This would be far less time consuming than screening every single post beforehand. Like I said, the latter tactic will slow commentary to a virtual stand-still and result in a much less vibrant, much less interactive website.

I find it disturbing that long-time posters were not consulted in this (major) decision but merely informed of it. When said posters did voice their opinions they were overwhelmingly opposed to the idea. Surely you should take this into consideration. I understand that you’re paying the bills but I was under the impression this was a community, not a corporation.

I respect all of the individuals involved in the creation and moderation of this site but I think you should reconsider this decision – now. I’m willing to stick around for a month but many quality posters may not.

gretavo's picture

Danse knows the score

and still has the best intro vid at this point in my opinion - The Third Stage

casseia's picture

Post from dicktater

Why do you feel that your opinion on this deserves to be another blog post rather than a part of the community discussion at the node above? Are you trying to divert attention away from Reprehensor's blog that has garnered such overwhelmingly negative feedback and condemnation by creating a separate blog entry that begs more for sympathy than reason? Why were these points that you now present here and claim to be part of the debate on the switching off of comments altogether not included in Reprehensor's original post? Sir, are you manufacturing a history in a desparate attempt to support a flawed decision that has proved very embarassing?

Just how real is this danger of a site shutdown by the haters of hate speech of which you speak? Generally, you supply many links to support assertions that you make and positions that you take on a variety of topics, both here and on your own blog. Yet, to justify your claimed fear of some Blogland Security shutdown raid, you provide none. Are these scary "stories of similar things happening" that you are hearing open source, verifiable events or are you just picking up paranoid back channel chatter on private mod squad frequencies to which we ewesers are not privy?

Users judged by the mod squad to have instigated "hate speech" (a wonderfully controversial term that I love to hate), and/or disruption, and/or an unwillingness to substantively contribute to the site have always been vunerable to banishment by your automagic permaban button. Surely, the "some people" of whom you speak cannot be so many as to be unmanagable. Would it not be a better and more efficient use of your time to handle these scarce cases individually rather than employ yourselves as human eschelons and carnivores?

Are we supposed to now rejoice (or bleet contentedly) that you chose "less draconian" measures? At least someone in this administration is willing to admit that mod squad filtering of comments is indeed still draconian, not to mention reprehensible. And, now you plead for us to "stay the course", at least for a month or so? In addition to what we have all already been doing, "writing hard-hitting blogs, sharing news tips, and organizing activist activities", should we also go shopping, Patrone?

The only point raised thus far with even a whiff of legitimacy is the concern for increased expense of bandwidth. But, rather than openly and honestly ask for more financial support from the comminity in order to support continued open comments, you choose to curtail discussion by closing the valve and save expense, which in turn effectively stifles lively and timely debate. I find this rather bizarre, to say the least. Kinda, sorta, just like my last relationship.

I respectfully request that the 911blogger mod squad immediately issue a self-imposed injunction against moderation of blog comments until a new front page blog post is created. This blog must contain a prioritized list of ALL of the issues included in discussions concerning adoption and implementation of a policy to moderate and/or totally eliminate user comments to blog posts. While you're at it, indicate who took what stance on each point, too.

In addition, I request that said blog include links to this blog and Reprehensor's original blog as reference for current and new members of the community. Furthermore, I also request, no demand that the 911blogger mod squad agree to not institute any moderation policies or eliminate comments altogether without providing justification to the community with 30 days advanced notice and comment period of intended action(s).

It is my humble opinion that the 911blogger community deserves nothing less this day after Independence Day.

gretavo's picture

ewesers... brilliant!

did everyone catch that? a ewe is a sheep right? a female one? a young one? any shepherds out there?

casseia's picture

I love "ewesers" -- I love that whole post

I think a "ewe" is a female sheep of any age. (Memories of my aunt and uncle's sheep farm in South Dakota... ah, nostalgia... stinky, stinky nostalgia...)

I'm going to PM users as I notice them with a link to this site, just to be sure they know it's an option. My post, which included a link, never did go up.

Jpass's picture

Geez

Dayamn! That is one of the best responses I've read. Could you imagine penning this only to have it tossed in the incinerator on 9/11 Blogger?

Annoymouse's picture

I would have been crushed.

That's why I copied it to a text file before sending it through the flaming hoop(s).

Too bad, though. I pounded out a short, snarky one in reply to Rep's ludicrous support of GW's fear-mongering with his one supporting (?) story from 2005. I'm afraid that one has probably been charbroiled beyond recognition, all three times.

I'm really worried about those guys. Do you think it's possible that Rep and GW are being bombarded by some sort of weird magnet mind-control ray beam from outer space? Honestly, I can't think of any other reason that could explain their behavior.

Looking forward to hanging out here! I've missed RT and casseia. Really.

dicktater

casseia's picture

Here's what Reprehensor cites

as evidence of the risk that a site might be shut down for "hatespeech." The site in question is globalresearch.ca and the posts had to do with Zionist/Israeli involvement in 9/11 and the Holocaust. (Surprise, surprise.) The complainant was a representative of B'nai Brith Canada. (My goodness, I'm shocked.) Here is the newspaper article, cited by Mark Rabinowitz's site

CREDIT: Pat McGrath, The Ottawa Citizen University of Ottawa
Professor Michel Chossudovsky says research on his website is 'anti-Zionist, not anti-Semitic.

U of O professor accused of hosting anti-Semitic website
Group files complaint over 'wild theories' that blame Jews for 9/11
By Pauline Tam
The Ottawa Citizen
August 20, 2005

A Jewish group has filed a complaint to the University of Ottawa against one of its professors after the discovery of content on his website that blames Jews for the terrorist attacks on the United States, and claims the numbers who died at Auschwitz are exaggerated.

The website, www.globalresearch.ca, also reprints articles from other writers that accuse Jews of controlling the U.S. media and masterminding the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. Other postings suggest Israel, the U.S. and Britain are the real perpetrators of the recent attacks on London.

Take a minute to read the whole article.

This is amazingly weak. (Yes, I continue to feel inadequately cynical to respond to the events at 911blogger.) The site was shut down by the host. This should be a contractual issue -- there is no reason for a site like 911blogger to be dealing with a host that does not permit ANY legal content, regardless of political flavor. (And I believe free speech is still nominally legal here in the US.)

Essentially, Reprehensor has just stepped forward and said, "Yes, what you suspected is true. We thought we could run off people inquiring into the role of Zionists, dual citizens, the Mossad, and Larry Silverstein just by brandishing our big Anti-Semitism stick, but that didn't seem to be working. So now we'll just cop to it and yank the rug out from under your feet."

Incidentally, Rabinowitz's oilempire site is chock full of railing against all the terrible disinfo agents in the 9/11 Truth Movement -- including people who don't believe a commercial jet hit the Pentagon and people who take controlled demolition too seriously. (It's just a theory -- let's stick to what we can prove! Like the wire transfer!) Rabinowitz himself disrupted David Ray Griffin's Portland appearance in May, coming up to me and a colleague to indignantly demand that we make Griffin stop talking about faked phone calls from the plane because "It's just a fact that those phone calls happened" and to say otherwise is offensive to the "families." Eventually my colleague had to take him outside into the hall just to quiet him down. Prior to the event, he had asked for time to "rebut" Griffin's presentation. Yeah, right...

gretavo's picture

oilempire.us = 100% Zionist Shills

seems to be hooked in with the fake ultra-left, i.e. folks like the revolutionary communist party and the international socialist movement, and Znet. All who bow to Chomsky. nuff said on that note.

as far as getting shut down--who got shut down? who forced anyone to do anything?

i don't foresee any issues, but I can assure everyone here that any complaint about content here that is not actually hate speech but just stuff that the B'nai B'rith doesn't like people to talk about will be treated with the utmost contempt. :)

Just for the record, Auschwitz was a prison and forced labor camp, but not a uniquely cruel one, nor was it a center for either mass gassings or mass cremations. Most who died there died from hunger or disease (mainly typhus) and mainly towards the end of the war when everyone in Germany was suffering similar hardships. There is no credible case to be made for a Nazi plan to exterminate all the Jews and evidence instead of Zionist collaboration and sympathies with their racist fellow travelers. Both sides agreed that racial groups should segregate themselves from each other and that the proper place for Jews was not Germany or even Europe, but Palestine.

As far as 9/11 goes, both American and Israeli elements seem to have been responsible. It will be noted that the complaint above says that tehre are those who "blame Jews" not "blame the Jews" which is an important distinction. They, for example, "blame Muslims" for the attacks. We actually "blame criminals" for 9/11, not "Jews". Some of those criminals may describe themselves as Jews and some of them may call themselves christians. That's their prerogative. My own concern is not with the perpetrators' race or religion but with their actions and their ideology of hate and deceit. That they happen to be based in America and Israel is simply a fact.

These tactics have seen their last days of usefulness. The fascist nature of Zionism should be clear from Zionists' penchant for supporting laws banning free speech and their well-coordinated efforts to smear their opponents with false accusations of bigotry.

gretavo's picture

oh my god...

http://www.oilempire.us/demolition.html

Has to be read to be believed. This is a perfect example of LIHOP limited hangout disguising itself as real truth. if OILEMPIRE is not funded by Silverstein himself he might consider a small donation...

demolition theories
NOT needed to prove complicity
once the fact that 9/11 was allowed to happen was established (which was documented within a few weeks of the events), everything beyond that is merely detail.

on this page:

* evidence for AND against demolition of the Twin Towers
* disinformation about demolition - are fake claims being promoted to discredit real evidence for demolition, or to get the skeptics to believe in something that did not happen?

related pages:

* pull it quote - bait and distraction
* WTC Building 7
* faulty design: the overlooked scandal

I have a legal case that will convict Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, George W. Bush, General Myers, right now in court based upon evidence that is not scientific in nature, I don't need to go there, that is a red herring when we focus on the crime that has been committed against this country. We've already proven who did it, the how doesn't have to be fully fleshed out. ...
These discussions of what possibly induced that [collapse of the towers] is a major psychological operations campaign designed to keep the American people from looking at the evidence of guilt.
-- Michael Ruppert, February 14, 2005, interview on KZYX, "The Party’s Over"

The case of 9/11, now being tried in our metaphorical court of the corporate media and public perception, leaves no doubt as to who could produce more expert witness testimony or present them in the most impressive manner. ... It is something else to analyze the temperature at which steel is weakened and determining whether or not an unproven amount of burning jet fuel, in unspecified concentrations and unknown locations could have weakened steel supports in the World Trade Center to the point where an unspecified amount of weight might cause them to buckle.
-- Michael Ruppert, Crossing the Rubicon: the Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil, pp. 13-14

The position of OilEmpire.US is that a faction of the Bush administration demolished the towers by allowing the planes to be hijacked, but explosives were probably NOT in the buildings.

It is likely, but unprovable with public domain evidence, to prove the theory that remote control technology that can be built into Boeing planes was used to "hijack the hijackers."

It is reasonable to assume the impacts of the planes plus the blast furnace type fires were sufficient to ensure the collapse of the towers. It is fortunate they remained standing long enough for those below the impact zones to escape.

The official complicity to let it happen and provide technical assistance resulted in demolition, but not in the scenario that much of the "truth movement" postulates.

The evidence for suppression of numerous warnings, interference with investigations of the flight schools before 9/11 and the multiple exercises on 9/11 is more than enough for an impeachment and conviction for aiding and abetting. Further details are like arguing whether the Reichstag in Germany was burned with gasoline or kerosene -- while the camps for dissidents are being completed for use. As with the Kennedy assassinations, the real issues are WHY 9/11 was allowed to happen, not the fine details of how it was technically accomplished. We are as unlikely to know the precise mechanisms behind 9/11 as the identity of the shooters of John F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy, but why these crimes were committed is much less obscure, and a more fruitful path for serious investigation that could lead to positive social changes.

If there is any truth to the demolition theories, it is unlikely to be found in the loudest promotions of these claims (Loose Change, Scholars for 9/11 Truth), which is why the media strategy is to focus on these alleged investigators and not those who highlight much better evidence that is not easily attacked.

The third skyscraper that collapsed - Building 7 - was hit by substantial debris from the collapsing towers, had more significant fires than reported by most 9/11 "truth" websites and videos, and the firefighters had concluded hours before its collapse that it was going to fall down, too.

The three collapses do look like controlled demolitions, but that is not proof that they were -- and there is an increasing volume of easily debunked nonsense promoting demolition theories in websites and videos. There are good claims for demolition, good claims against it, and silly hoaxes for it that are easily debunked. Whatever the truths for or against demolition theories, they are not needed to show complicity in 9/11.

As Carl Sagan famously said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far, there are not any verifiable, unshakeable proofs for demolition (even the best claims are inferential). Meanwhile, there is well documented evidence that shows abundant warnings from close US allies that were very specific to time, plane, means.

Some of the gaps not explained by any demolition theories:

* no analyses of the damage to the structures from the impact of the planes, which caused considerable damage. (Some who were in the towers thought the building was going to fall over when it happened.) The claim that fire alone caused the collapses is not the official story, even if many claim that it is.
* there was a noticeable bulge in the buildings just before collapse seems to refute the demolition theories -- although photos on websites are not of sufficient resolution to prove or disprove this aspect.
* how could potential explosives survive the impacts and infernos? How could they have been detonated at the same locations as the impact zones while surviving the fires (in the North Tower, for more than an hour and a half). While black boxes used in aircraft data recorders can survive the shock and heat of plane crashes (and they were found from all four 9/11 planes), their integrity is merely to ensure data recorded before the crash remains retrievable, they do not continue to function after extreme force and heat.

The only "physical evidence" investigation making a serious effort to carefully evaluate "physical evidence" is wtc7.net / 911review.com / 911research.com. Most of the other web based efforts focused on demolition still promote the hoax that Flight 77 did not hit the (nearly empty part of the) Pentagon and therefore are not careful in their efforts (even if they are sincere, which some of them are). Some pro-demolition efforts fail to mention the word NORAD in their efforts, which suggests there might be a deliberate effort to misdirect the truth movement.

Some advocates of the silliest complicity hoaxes aggressively promote the idea of demolition with "evidence" that is easy to expose as fake. There are two possible explanations:

1. the towers were not actually demolished, and the fake claims get the 9/11 skeptics to support a position that is not true (the plane crashes, shattering of the structure and the blow torch effect of the fires was sufficient to cause the collapses)
2. the towers were demolished, but the fake claims are used to discredit the idea in the media so that calls for a real investigation remain as marginalized as possible, for as long as possible

refuting top claims for demolition theories

David Ray Griffin has compiled a list of some of the top claims for demolition. Here are a few rebuttals to the assertions. Tactically, it would be much more helpful to have credible structural engineers and other relevant experts present these claims, instead of theologians. The 9/11 debunkers who support the official story have had much fun pointing to the scanty technical qualifications of the "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" regarding the physical evidence issues -- while ignoring a large volume of evidence that does not require scientific analysis to show the government lied about 9/11.

http://www.truthmove.org/content/demolition-wtc-7/
has a copy of Griffin's list

No large steel-frame building has ever collapsed due to fire. The official explanation given by the government teams is that fire destroyed both towers and building 7. The damage from the aircraft and debris are admitted to have played an insignifcant role.
rebuttal: the WTC did not fall just because of fire. The damage from the aircraft had a major role, it was not "insignificant." The official explanation for WTC7 is the tower falling onto it caused much of the damage, and there are many claims the firefighters knew for hours it was going to collapse. These claims for 7 may (or may not) be true, but ignoring them is not honest.

The collapse of all three buildings occured in a symmetrical, straight down fashion, into their own footprint. While dust and debris may have been ejected outwards, the structures essentially fell in on themselves, leaving surrounding buildings essentially undamaged.
rebuttal: All of the surrounding buildings had gouges in them from the collapses.

The buildings collapsed at almost free-fall speed. This means that each building must have experienced some spontaneous global structural failure so that there was no resistance or delay in the collapse. The official “pancake theory” for the towers is untenable because as upper floors supposedly collapsed onto those below, there would have been structural resistance. Instead the collapses began almost instantly and showed no signs of resistance.
rebuttal: There is no reason to expect the lower floors to substantially slow down 100,000 tons (or more) of material from falling down.

According to the 9/11 Commission, “The interior core of the buildings was a hollow steel shaft, in which elevators and stairwells were grouped” (p. 541). In fact, the core of the towers was actually a support system of 47 massive steel columns. The commission just ignored these because their existence conflicted with the official story of spontaneous global collapse.
rebuttal: It would more relevant to examine what the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST) said about the core columns, since they did the investigation. Plus, it is reasonable to assume that the plane crash caused considerable damage to the core columns. There were very strong core columns, but technically it is true that the center of the building was hollow (the elevator shafts surrounded by the core columns).

All three buildings were completely destroyed. The resulting piles of rubble were only a few stories high and there were no large, structural pieces left. If you consider the structual engineering strength and redundancy put into the buildings, it is ridiculous to attribute this result to a “structural failure” or simple “collapse.”
rebuttal: again, there is no reason to assume that the collapse would somehow stop once started.

Nearly all the concrete and non-metallic substances in the towers were pulverized into a fine powder. The gravitational energy of a simple “collapse” would not have been sufficient to cause this pulverization.
rebuttal: Controlled demolition is not an explanation for this either, unless you assume each floor was blown up, which is not credible. Some of it may have become ash from the fire.

Molten Steel was also observed by multiple witnesses at ground zero, even weeks after 9/11. The energy needed to melt steel would only been possible through the use of explosives or other foreign, high-energy devices. Jet fuel and the collapse of the buildings could not have created enough heat or energy to leave molten steel.
rebuttal: controlled demolition does not cause fires for months. Jet fuel was not the only thing that burned in the towers -- paper, furniture, plastic (made from oil), other synthetic combustible materials all added to the conflagration. Strong winds through broken windows and up the elevator shafts turned the towers into chimneys and got hot enough to weaken steel and melt some aluminum pieces of the plane. Perhaps an explanation for the "powder" is "ash" from fire? It would be helpful to ssee primary evidence for "molten steel" (and not molten aluminum from the planes) that can actually be verified.

Firefighters, initial news reports and other witnesses prominently reported secondary explosions within the towers.
rebuttal: Many have suggested these noises were a combination of very large short circuits and the floors pancaking, which would definitely sound like that. How do you separate the real noises from those sources from the alleged explosions?

WTC 7 housed the New York offices of the CIA, Secret Service, SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission), and Rudy Giuliani’s Office of Emergency Management bunker.
The New York Times on WTC 7: “no building like it, a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise, had ever collapsed because of an uncontrolled fire… Because of those doubts, engineers hold open the possibility that the collapse had other explanations, like damage caused by falling debris or another source of heat….A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures, Dr. Barnett said.”
rebuttal: You can't simultaneously have "high temperatures" and claims that the fires weren't hot enough to bring down the buildings. The insinuation tons of thermite burned for weeks is not credible.

casseia's picture

Juvenile, I know

but we started calling him Mark Rabid-No-Witz after our encounter. He's unbefreakin'lievable. He's based in Eugene, a couple of hours drive down the Willamette Valley from Portland.

gretavo's picture

by scapegoating Bush

they hope to divide Americans down the middle on the issue of 9/11. the truth, that it was a American Neocon/Israeli Zionist joint venture is something that most Americans would have no problem with, if they were just allowed to know it. Most Americans simply could not care less about Israel and only the demonization of muslims through this false flag attack managed to get Americans in any significant numbers to even as tepidly as they do, sympathize with Israel.

Big overreach on the part of the Zionists who must think they are much more lovable than they actually are... I mean come one--Jon Stewart a bad guy? ARE YOU ON CRACK? Well, no, I'm not. That's his shtick, nice liberal Zionist who hates Bush. And Bush did 9/11. Only he won't even say that, he'll just let OILEMPIRE reveal that to you if you care to take the (fake) red pill.

casseia's picture

You may have seen this when it was blogged at that other place

Rabinowitz's response to DRG's article in Tikkun magazine:

To the editor:

Tikkun's publication of David Ray Griffin's article about 9/11 --
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/tik0703/frontpage/empire911 -- is both
courageous and detrimental. It is courageous because there is a lot
of good evidence for Cheney/Bush complicity. Close US allies,
including France, Germany, Israel, Jordan, Russia and others provided
specific warnings that 9/11 was imminent. At least five FBI
investigations were undermined just before the attacks. During 9/11,
numerous war game exercises seem to have confused the air defenses or
moved fighter planes too far away to intercept the hijacked planes.
And the National Reconnaissance Office (which operates spy
satellites) was conducting a "plane into building" exercise at the
same time as actual events. In short, 9/11 was allowed to happen
and probably was provided technical assistance to make sure that it
happened -- since the "new Pearl Harbor" was needed to provide the
excuse to seize the Middle East oil fields as we pass the global peak
of petroleum production. That is what the "Cheney energy plan" is
really about.

However, David Griffin's article is in desperate need of a fact
checker, since not all claims of complicity are true. The most
important disinformation is the false claim that Flight 77 did not
hit the Pentagon, a piece of outrageous nonsense first concocted by
Donald Rumsfeld in a October 12, 2001 interview in Parade magazine.
Every claim for this hoax has been debunked for years, even by many
9/11 truth activists. http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon-truth.html
has a list of some of them, and it is intellectually dishonest for
Griffin to pretend that this fact checking has not happened.
Hundreds of people saw the plane crash and the plane parts
afterwards. No one saw a missile. The width of the damage to the
Pentagon was the width of the plane. Perhaps he could travel on
Interstate 395 and Washington Boulevard (which pass near the
Pentagon) the next time he is in Washington, D.C. and he might
understand how lots of commuters saw Flight 77 crash into the nearly
empty, recently reinforced and strengthened sector of the
Pentagon. Why it was not intercepted (even after the second tower
was hit) and how it was steered into the nearly empty part of the
Pentagon are the real issues.

Griffin's article even promotes offensive attacks on the 9/11 family
members by claiming that the phone calls from the doomed passengers
were somehow all faked. While it's true that voice morphing software
does exist, the complexity that would be required to stage this for
dozens of randomly selected passengers shows the value of Occam's
Razor. The source for this alleged claim is a Canadian who
supposedly couldn't get a good cell phone signal from a plane
somewhere in Canada -- as if that had any relevance to the final
moments of the planes as they neared their targets. Additionally,
many if not most of the calls were made on Airphones, which even the
most extreme disinformation promoters on 9/11 don't deny actually
function quite well in planes.

Worse, Griffin's article relied on several neo-Nazi Holocaust denial
propagandists as alleged reliable sources -- which is especially
outrageous to insert into a publication like Tikkun. The American
Free Press, which Griffin considers credible, is a white supremacist
publication that also publishes "The Barnes Review," the largest
Holocaust denial publication in the country. (Barnes Review sells
lots of titles claiming the Holocaust did not happen and praised
Hitler as worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize!). Eric Hufschmid, also
cited as a credible source, proudly boasts on his website that he
doesn't believe the Holocaust happened, either. Rense.com, also
given publicity in Griffin's footnotes, promotes the cause of
Holocaust denial along with kooky stories of the paranormal that are
entertaining to some but not appropriate for a serious examination of
government malfeasance.
http://www.oilempire.us/holocaust-denial.html and http://
www.oilempire.us/afp.html provide details.

However, the most damning problem of relying on neo-Nazis for "facts"
is not the fact that they are racists lying about the Holocaust --
but they are also lying about the topic of 9/11 complicity. Yes,
there's solid evidence for foreknowledge and paralysis of the air
defenses via the wargames -- but the no plane claims are as fake as
the racist canards about Auschwitz supposedly not being a death camp
(a claim found at the websites of Hufschmid, American Free Press and
Rense.com).

Nearly three years ago, I co-sponsored the second public presentation
that David Griffin made on 9/11 complicity issues. It is very
disappointing to see him embrace Holocaust deniers and other liars
promoting "no planes." Meanwhile, the media attack on the 9/11 truth
movement focuses only on the "no plane" hoaxes and demolition
theories -- not the well documented evidence of suppressed warnings
and military wargames on 9/11 simulating actual events. It would be
nice to see Mr. Griffin learn from these mistakes, since promoting a
mix of real and false claims makes it difficult for most people to
differentiate the good from the bad.

Skeptical Tikkun readers who want to read about the best evidence for
9/11 complicity while steering clear of the disinformation should
start with the Complete 9/11 Timeline published by the Center for
Cooperative Research at www.cooperativeresearch.org It doesn't have
the most fanciful claims, but it does have solid evidence documented
by mainstream media sources and official testimony.

gretavo's picture

it's crap like this that finally made me a...

you-know-what-O-caust deconstructionist

these clowns can't possibly be lumping it together with their LIHOP crap if it weren't also bogus. why would you threaten the credibility of something real by treating it the same as you treat something that to many people is much more obviously fake?

Ahem.... here's my new theme for the you-know-what-O-caust.... Deconstructing "the" Holocaust not denying, not revising... deconstructing. hacking. opening it up to scrutiny to see what it's really all about. when people start screaming at me to stop I'll know to look even closer.

Keenan's picture

I wonder why so many agents flock to Oregon

So Robanowitz is from Eugene? Mr. Ruppert setup in Ashland for a while, and Jeff Rense is also based out of Southern Oregon as I recall. There's some others but it's not on the tip of my tongue. BTW, cassela, Portland is my home town. Now I'm near the SF Bay Area - of course we have our share of agents here, Jim Hoffman being the most notorious...

gretavo's picture

i think they have to go

where people are most likely to hold nontraditional views... would be my guess... i do wonder about hoffman... does he actually say he thinks it was AA&& that hit the Pentagon? From my look at his site it seemed much more nuanced, like there was probably SOME kind of plane, just not definitely 77... his book with Don Paul, waking up from our nightmare, was in fact my first 9/11 book, along with painful questions by hufschmid... i still use cut outs from both books in my truthing set up...

Keenan's picture

He contends it was a big Boeing 757

Hoffman states on his 911research.com web site, "[argueing for no Boeing 757 at the Pentagon is] an idea that may be the single most elaborate and well-orchestrated hoax used to undermine the credibility of the 9-11 Truth Movement."

Actually, I just went back to check his web site (911research.com). The above quote was on his site a few months ago. He updated it with this quote: "The idea that no 757 crashed at the Pentagon is easily the most controversial and divisive issue among researchers of the 9/11/01 attacks. Effectively promoted since early 2002, this idea has enjoyed an increasing acceptance in the 9/11 Truth Movement, despite its blatant incompatibility with the extensive body of eyewitness evidence that a 757-like twin-engine jetliner flew into the Pentagon and exploded."

Annoymouse's picture

Hoffman + A77

But, does he think it was A77 that hit the Pentagon, flown by Hanjour?
See, i think THAT is the question that really matters.
And i don't think he does, but i wasnt able to find his opinion on this browsing his site now...
-em7

Keenan's picture

He has muddled his opinion on this lately

I believe he used to explicitly say that it was AA77, and now he just says a Boeing 757, although all of his arguments are geared towards debunking all critiques of the official story that AA77 was the plane. So, even if he doesn't explicitly state it was AA77, he will shoot down any and every alternative that people put forward.

I don't think that it is such an important distinction whether it was AA77 or another Boeing 757 passenger plane which Hoffman contends, both positions are ludicrous. Even arguing that it was just a Boeing 757 passenger plane is propping up the official story that muslim hijackers attacked us, or that the Pentagon's anti-missile batteries somehow allowed it through, and is easy to disprove with examining the physical evidence.

Keenan's picture

Robanowitz, Hoffman, Ruppert, Popular Mechanics all read from

the same script. This just reconfirms what I already suspected. I don't think it's a coincidence that all of these actors use the exact same terminology: the contention that Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon is a HOAX; pull it quote is nonsense and embarasses the movement; questioning the phone calls upsets the family members, etc.

Just the classic Squeeze Play - operatives working both outside and inside the truth movement try to knock out most or all legs of the truth movement. Some, like Hoffman, use one of the more obvious legs - controlled demolition - to stand on and then knock out the other legs, while his fellow operatives are happy to knock out his CD leg.

gretavo's picture

you got it

inside, outside--they cover every base.

inside's picture

didnt wtc7net go from "no

didnt wtc7net go from "no plane at the pentagon" to "flight 77 hit the pentagon" like, over night??? that is my understanding...

Killtown's picture

I tried to tell everyone that 911blogger is a joke

http://killtown.blogspot.com/2007/06/911bloggercom-is-joke.html

dz allowed the haters to rule, now they are taking draconian steps to try to put out the fire they allowed to erupt. All they needed to do was ban about 10 haters on the comments section that would have sent a strong message to all the rest of the would-be immature haters.

Keenan's picture

Can you be more specific

about which haters dz allowed to rule and which fire they allowed to erupt? I guess the above comment is too cryptic for me.

Killtown's picture

These are the kinds of haters dz allowed to rule blogger

Annoymouse's picture

Go away Killtown

Ha, Killtown is as a vulture to a recent death scene. Nice try Killtown, but YOU were "hated" on Blogger for very LEGITIMATE reasons, which still stand to this day. Go away Killtown. You are a phoney and must be shunned by genuine truthers at every turn.

EDIT: Hey, we're trying an experiment here -- an experiment in being CIVILIZED. Please save it for when Killtown actually says something you disagree with. (Chances are, you won't have to wait long :) --casseia

Killtown's picture

Hi Dem Bruce, how are you?!

Yes, I was hated by all the haters like you.

EDIT: Killtown, please see above. Your part in the experiment is to chill about the haters elsewhere and see what happens here. The rage against the haters shtick gets old really fast. Thanks. --casseia

gretavo's picture

Killtown...

If we ban you can we get free advertising on your site too? It's funny that you advertise for all the people who ban you so much. Why not just pretend they don't exist? I'm afraid your purpose is most likely to be to give them the credibility that comes from your obsession with dissing them. I also notice that this here blog is nowhere in your blog roll. Now, that's not a request, please understand. I just think it's funny that for a blog that is not important enough to list on your blog roll you chose it to come have these arguments with your "haters"...

Killtown's picture

Or maybe Gretavo, just maybe

I just found out about your little blog here and I'm testing it out to see if I think it's worthy to include on my blogroll. Gee, now there is a novel idea.

Killtown's picture

Are you not enraged by the haters casseia?

I wouldn't post about the haters if they didn't hate on everybody in the first place.

casseia's picture

No, I'm irked by the haters.

Please ignore the haters here and I'll ask them to refrain from hating. Now go blog about something like Val McClat-whatever and don't make me regret offering a pro-Killtown opinion to this blog's benevolent overlord.

Killtown's picture

For future reference casseia

Telling some people to not do something only makes them want to do it more. It also makes them feel like they have to walk on eggshells for the remainder of their stay.

casseia's picture

Uh, that applies to 8 year-olds...

I didn't realize that politely asking an adult to refrain from something worked the same way.

inside's picture

im just dying to know who kt

im just dying to know who kt would ban from 911b...

casseia's picture

From Jonny

There's a simple solution to this. For those that decide they would rather bash individuals, or the information they promote because it doesn't coincide with whatever "pet theory" they have rather than contribute something to the site, and to the cause, then ban them. There's nothing wrong with banning people.

Comments should be used to post supporting information (for whatever blog you're posting in), and the exchanging of ideas for activism.

Emphasis added.

Notice how he conflates bashing (sic) information with bashing the people promoting it. (And what does it mean to promote information? Catapult the propaganda?) And if he were king of 911blogger, he would ban people for posting information that does not support the blog it's posted in.

Notice also how the "pet theory" meme, second only to the "church of controlled demolition" trope in inflammatory potential, is freely trotted out, with the blessing of the mod. So much for eliminating wedge issues.

gretavo's picture

well of course

there are no good theories or bad theories, just universal theories and pet theories. controlled demolition is a pet theory according to Jon Gold, and the Patsystani wire transfer is a universally respected theory. let's see how many Jon Gold fans chime in to agree with him... really, it's like he's giving instructions to a bunch of retarded automatons on how to successfully operate a shill site!

gretavo's picture

i should say...

controlled demolition is not a theory it is fact. it is indeed my pet fact.

Jon on the other hand has a pet theory which is that all of the evidence pointing to Israel is meaningless and that any evidence pointing to Patsystan or Saudi Arabia, i.e. that supports the Islamofascist blood libel is by default credible and relevant.

Jpass's picture

Damn, maybe he is dumb

Jon has gone beyond hypocritical. Check these comments when I dared investigate the 'wire transfer'...

"JPass is not a serious customer, or a serious thinker, whatsoever" - johndoraemi

"Trying to discredit 9/11 Press For Truth by labeling Paul Thompson (who has certainly done more research on Omar Sheikh than you) as a disinfo agent is divisive and counterproductive."

(yea, don't find yourself at odds with 911Press4truth / 9/11 Family members)

"What exactly do you expect to gain from this post?" - pdevlinbuckley

"Personally, I think it's worth looking into. Are you against that?" - jon gold

(of course not jon, i did just that)

"So far all you've done is question every source posted about it. Yet, it is accepted by the family members that fought for the creation of the Commission, as well as the majority of the movement." - jon gold

(yea, best not position yourself in opposition to the family members)

"As far as jpass is concerned, we are all just sheep following disinformation." - pdevlinbuckley

"If you don't think this needs intense investigation -- then you are just not thinking." - johndoraemi

Anyway, the list goes on. It's funny because these people will claim you are closed off or against looking at things like the money wire when, in fact, that is exactly what you are doing, looking at the sources and information.

I am preaching to the quire here because it's obvious the problem was experienced by many.

casseia's picture

Well, don't look at it *that* way

I mean, don't investigate the wire transfer in any way that might hurt the feelings of Paul Thompson or the family members -- that's just wrong. That means you're just advancing your pet theories. Not.

Okay, carping done for the night.

Danse's picture

Who the f*** is Omar Sheikh?

Who the f*** is Omar Sheikh? And why should I care about him? Seriously. This guy's prolly some lower-ladder smack peddler who got framed as "Al-Qaeda" when Richard Clarke ran out of Muslim-sounding names to prop up his goofy Al-Qaeda story on behalf of Mossad. Ok maybe that's a little much, but I'm sick and tired of this "chase Al-Qaeda" round the rosy. "Bin Laden determined to strike inside US!" Duck and Cover! Did Omar plant bombs in WTC7? I didn't think so. So STFU with the "wire transfers". People who push LIHOP at this stage are out to lunch or worse.

larry horse's picture

well put

google 'larry horse'
your film is featured on his myspace page

Annoymouse's picture

They wouldn't publish this

hi, Ningen here. I posted this at another blog here, but this is where it belongs. Sorry.

What's Going on at 911Blogger?
( Home » What's Going... )
Submitted by GeorgeWashington on Wed, 07/04/2007 - 9:22pm

http://911blogger.com/node/9789

Jon Gold commented:

I think...

There's a simple solution to this. For those that decide they would rather bash individuals, or the information they promote because it doesn't coincide with whatever "pet theory" they have rather than contribute something to the site, and to the cause, then ban them. There's nothing wrong with banning people.

Comments should be used to post supporting information (for whatever blog you're posting in), and the exchanging of ideas for activism.

Submitted by Jon Gold on Thu, 07/05/2007 - 5:36am

I responded:

Thank you, Jon, for stating what this is really about

This has nothing to do with "civility." It has to with certain theories, promoted by certain people who claim that these theories, and only these theories, are in the interest of the cause, and who do not want those theories questioned.

Many disputes arose from accusations of "disinfo," which is uncivil but is a much bigger issue. I was one of the persons often accused of disinformation. I would then respond and explain why I believed that what I was saying was accurate. Much of my discussion of no planes was in this context, meaning that the problem was created by the false and gratuitous attacks. I would of course, quite reasonably, respond with anger at being slandered. Eventually, I identified myself by name and location and asked the anonymous cowards slandering me to do the same, or cease their slander.

I was also accused of an insidious plot to insinuate myself by sounding reasonable and agreeing with a lot of what people say. That is false and ludicrous.

I contributed to correcting misinformation. An example is greenback, who was pushing false claims about DoD regulations, which were explained early on by

I actually disagree with the Mineta theory, because I think it has nowhere near the significance attributed to it, and might even be disinformation of the limited hangout type. Nevertheless, I corrected greenback's information (and Adam Letalik's mistake about the time Mineta entered PEOC) because I didn't want it spread.

Reprehensor, do you plan on checking all the facts that are posted? Can you do that? Don't you see that comments, properly cited, are very useful in correcting misinformation? Can't you see that corrected misinformation is useful independent of the theory held by the corrector, as facts fit into various theories and must be accurate?

Another serious issue is that the rules of this blog were not followed. Comments are supposed to be downrated for violations of the rules, not mere disagreement.

It would be better to hide all comments, for reasons of space and allow people to click on comments or threads of comments.

Jon, many of the disputes arose from users that voted against your blogs, you complaining about that, and people explaining why they did that. You have a "pet theory," and you want to be able to promote that theory here without being questioned. Thank you for being fairly honest about that.

Arabesque has evaded this issue, and the issue of accusations of disinformation creating problems, in his reply to my comment at Reprehensor's blog. I generally agreed with much of what he said in his reply, because his "reply" did not address anything I said.

Annoymouse's picture

Hey people, Danse here. I

Hey people, Danse here.

I just learned about this site via blogger. I wasn’t even aware RT was banned until a few days ago. I was wondering where Casseia disappeared to as well. Now I know!

I have to say I'm disappointed it came to this. The whole chain of events seems to have been completely unnecessary.

BTW RT, I registered a little while ago so please activate my account so I can post a blog.

I hope this doesn’t develop into a “People’s front of Judea” phenomenon where everyone divides into little squabbling camps. “Otter’s noses” anyone? ;)

gretavo's picture

oh so you're a Judean People's Front supporter eh?

and you've come here to divide and conquer us??

so i'm reading the founding myths of modern israel... scandalous!

Annoymouse's picture

I knew it. You ARE a

I knew it. You ARE a supporter of the People's Front of Judea.

gretavo's picture

well... yeah

Judea and Samaria I believe are where the west bank currently is. I don't support violence in any way but i do support the cause of people... are you against PEOPLE?? against Judea? against fronts? i suppose you think the roman empire was a net positive for the world?

Annoymouse's picture

Hmmm...there seems to be a

Hmmm...there seems to be a problem with your commenting function. That's three posts I've made and no entry.

Annoymouse's picture

Me too,..Lemonhoko here...

Heya guys..if this is a repost, I apologise.

Just wanted to drop by and say hi to all the familiar faces. Good job on the site RT!
I was wondering where you went, then I heard about the ban from 911 blogger.

Anyways, since the censorship over there, ive been looking for another site to hang out at. Looks like I found it!

Anyways, still waiting on activation is any admins are on ;)

Annoymouse's picture

testing...

testing...

gretavo's picture

TESTING???

WHO approved THIS???

that's it!! EVERYONE's BANNED!!!!!!!!!

the power... it corrupts... i'm... sorry. ok so what's your point? free speech lives on--there are plenty of people who can vouch for the fact that i'm not selectively censoring anonymous posts. we will continue to seek better ways to make the site work...

can we talk about 9/11 maybe?

Annoymouse's picture

You cant ban me...

I just got here.

Good luck WTCDEMOLITION. Nice to see the 911B spirit alive here.

BMAC

gretavo's picture

thanks BMAC

did you register? yeah i like that spirits have a way of moving around... i remember proudly wearing my 911blogger tshirt for truthing... >snif< now it will just collect dust in my closet...

gretavo's picture

thanks BMAC

did you register? yeah i like that spirits have a way of moving around... i remember proudly wearing my 911blogger tshirt for truthing... >snif< now it will just collect dust in my closet...

casseia's picture

That was me.

Sorry, it's that one percent I can't control.

I'm ready to talk about 9/11 now.

How 'bout that 9/11...

Annoymouse's picture

Lemonhoko here

Heya guys, I just found this site too..glad to see alot of familiar names. Since the censorship of 911 blogger ive been looking for another site to hang out at.

Heya RT..glad to see you again! I didnt know of your ban either until I saw it posted yesterday in a comment at 911 Blogger. Although I didnt agree with some of the things you said at the blogger, I didnt think anything was out of line. I didnt see it in your character to be worthy of a ban, but thats just me. However, I do know I agreed with your comments more than I disagreed.
Glad to see you have made this site, hopefully I can contribute.

Btw, Im waiting activiation if an admin can help ;)

Lemonhoko's picture

Heya everyone!

Just wanted to drop in real quick and say hi to the 911 blogger crowd.

I just heard about your ban RT, glad you started this site. Perhaps there was a purpose in the timing of all this, but anyways, nice site you got here.

Looking forward to contributing to the community at this site..Looks like this site is getting the best people breaking away from the 911 blogger community. Well breaking away is the wrong way to put it. More like pushed out the door. I tend to call it "passive" banning of everyone..lol

Lazlo Toth's picture

Welcome Lemonhoko

Glad to see you rowed your lifeboat over here. Has the ship finally sunk over at 9/11 No More Blogging.com? Last time I looked Jon Gold was responding to his own posts. It's a ghost town now where everyone is just talking to themselves, with RepreCensor commenting on GW's posts and vice versa. I hope they have fun. It's all pretty sad.

Lemonhoko's picture

Thanks Lazio!

Yeah, its very quiet over there now. I only post in Reps and GW blogs because I have a Protest against 911 Blogger censorship in my sig. But Im sure my presense there will soon drop to nil.

Looks like this site is attracting all the brains and its much more fun to hang around a crowd like that.

Big_D's picture

What up, Lemonhoko

Damn, The '911blogger refugee camp' is getting crowded. LOL :)

Lemonhoko's picture

LOL

Haha, the 911blogger refugee camp. Thats a good way to put it.

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The 11th Day of Every Month

Lemonhoko's picture

Sorry about my previous posts..

There seems to be a delay in posts if youre not activated.
Sorry for the spam guys. Mods please delete my anom posts if possible. Thanks.

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The 11th Day of Every Month